ATC... Bollockings for all
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but if you close your mind to the fact that we can learn from other methods and ideas, then we are consigning ourselves to mediocrity
And as for:
I can only conclude that whilst your views are in contravention of mine, they have served to highlight certain common misconceptions of the processes that we utilize to improve flight safety
!It is the last post of someone who has realised his only defense is retreat. Terribly disappointing really. I was just getting into it.
DANNY, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD. IT WILL SAVE ME AND OTHERS FROM THE BACK INJURIES RELATING TO THE NEED TO STOOP TO THIS RIDICULOUSLY LOW LEVEL IN ORDER TO MAKE OURSELVES UNDERSTOOD. And as for professional or non-professional, what has that actually got to do with anything? I though anyone could post here. It is uneducated input that can sometimes make for good debate. Please don't put the amatuer contingent off!!!
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JFK ground confusion audio recording
aka Capt PPRuNe
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That sounds fairly normal for JFK. A bit of confusion but the ground controller gets it all sorted out. No real bollockings, just a good sense of humour and repartee.
If you think that's bad, you should see it at night, in the rain if it all goes wrong!
I've merged the above post into this thread to try and give some perspective to the discussion. For those of you who are not familiar with some of the busiest US airports but feel so strongly about correct phraseology, you should look at the airport diagram and try and follow the radio exchanges in the post above. Remember that at least 3 and probably all four runways are active and in use.
Enjoy. It's quite amusing but at the same time, if you've ever operated into JFK then you'll appreciate problem that this ground controller had to sort out.
If you think that's bad, you should see it at night, in the rain if it all goes wrong!
I've merged the above post into this thread to try and give some perspective to the discussion. For those of you who are not familiar with some of the busiest US airports but feel so strongly about correct phraseology, you should look at the airport diagram and try and follow the radio exchanges in the post above. Remember that at least 3 and probably all four runways are active and in use.
Enjoy. It's quite amusing but at the same time, if you've ever operated into JFK then you'll appreciate problem that this ground controller had to sort out.
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Radar?
As a student of Aerospace engineering who's had some ATM and Avionics stuff, I have little practical experience. Therefore perhaps an obvious question...
Wouldn't mode s + multilateration help a bit? You know, having a screen of the airport layout with all the A/C blips+names... I don't know the JFK system setup and layout, so I stand by to be educated some more.
Very enjoyable listen any way you listen to it
Wouldn't mode s + multilateration help a bit? You know, having a screen of the airport layout with all the A/C blips+names... I don't know the JFK system setup and layout, so I stand by to be educated some more.
Very enjoyable listen any way you listen to it
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Lovely bit of chaos at JFK. It sort of sounds like the ATC equivalent of the part of pilot training dealing with recovery from unusual attitudes - set up the field in a weird manner and let the controller sort it out.
Pegase Driver
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Well, Danny, from an ATC point of view this JFK ground guy makes a bit of a mess of it, No ? and frankly he gets away with it because it is JFK , and it is busy.
I perticularly like the remarks to the IBERIA A340-600: " you're unable to do everything with that plane of yours "
, but if a FRA Ground operator ( no controllers in there ) was telling that to a LH crew, he probably will get some problems (The German sense of humor is not extending that far..)
Back to the original thread, the point I disagreed about ( and still do ) is that by bullocking a Controller for following the rules, you do not improve safety, quite the contrary in fact.
That was my point, and God knows I am not an R/T Ayatollah , and miss the good old days when it was not so busy and we had a bit of humor on the R/T.
I perticularly like the remarks to the IBERIA A340-600: " you're unable to do everything with that plane of yours "
, but if a FRA Ground operator ( no controllers in there ) was telling that to a LH crew, he probably will get some problems (The German sense of humor is not extending that far..)Back to the original thread, the point I disagreed about ( and still do ) is that by bullocking a Controller for following the rules, you do not improve safety, quite the contrary in fact.
That was my point, and God knows I am not an R/T Ayatollah , and miss the good old days when it was not so busy and we had a bit of humor on the R/T.
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Just to drag this back to Magplug's original post:
Is it REALLY such a hardship to readback the runway designator on your landing clearance? If you were landing at Schipol i'm sure you'd have no problem in doing so.... why is MAN any different?
If it's a requirement of the ATC unit that the clearance is readback, the controller has every right to make sure you read it back.
Is it REALLY such a hardship to readback the runway designator on your landing clearance? If you were landing at Schipol i'm sure you'd have no problem in doing so.... why is MAN any different?
If it's a requirement of the ATC unit that the clearance is readback, the controller has every right to make sure you read it back.
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Runway incursions
Really interesting to read many of the posts on this issue, especially from those who appear to be well placed in understanding how serious incidents and accidents come about.
Not applying standard phraseologies may not be the sole cause in such an event, but has occurred frequently enough to be worthy of a mention in comprehensive studies such as here; http://www.eurocontrol.int/runwaysaf...eanAction.html That is, they are one (often large) hole in the Swiss cheese model. Line a couple more and bingo!
To suggest that MAN has a procedure for one runway that should be considered outside the scope of globally acceptable procedures being applied to ALL parallel runways (wether active or not, day night or otherwise) would lead us to a matrix of procedures being different for all those airports that have some quirks that differ from the norm. Now wouldn’t that be lovely.
Think about the poor sod who flies in just once in a blue moon, and how does he cope with these differences. Time for some to get out and smell the roses – not always smelling pretty when sh1tz are trumps and you’re holding a handful!
Not applying standard phraseologies may not be the sole cause in such an event, but has occurred frequently enough to be worthy of a mention in comprehensive studies such as here; http://www.eurocontrol.int/runwaysaf...eanAction.html That is, they are one (often large) hole in the Swiss cheese model. Line a couple more and bingo!
To suggest that MAN has a procedure for one runway that should be considered outside the scope of globally acceptable procedures being applied to ALL parallel runways (wether active or not, day night or otherwise) would lead us to a matrix of procedures being different for all those airports that have some quirks that differ from the norm. Now wouldn’t that be lovely.
Think about the poor sod who flies in just once in a blue moon, and how does he cope with these differences. Time for some to get out and smell the roses – not always smelling pretty when sh1tz are trumps and you’re holding a handful!
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I worked it out. Monarch Man could land twice a day at MAN, five days a week, 48 weeks a year, and it would take three years, nine months and two weeks before the number of times he said the word "Right" equaled the number of words he's written about not having to say "Right".
I may be a sad barsteward for working that out - but I feel like a sadder barsteward for having read it all...
I may be a sad barsteward for working that out - but I feel like a sadder barsteward for having read it all...
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"I worked it out. Monarch Man could land twice a day at MAN, five days a week, 48 weeks a year, and it would take three years, nine months and two weeks before the number of times he said the word "Right" equaled the number of words he's written about not having to say "Right"."
....Brilliant.
Well said!
....Brilliant.
Well said!
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Well, MAN ground was not at its best this very morning...
KLM med emergency (hope the gal/guy made it ok as the ambulance took ages to arrive...),
1001 (including ours) aircraft asking for pushback / taxi all at the same time,
merely made the slot,
Just one thing to do, stay
KLM med emergency (hope the gal/guy made it ok as the ambulance took ages to arrive...),
1001 (including ours) aircraft asking for pushback / taxi all at the same time,
merely made the slot,
Just one thing to do, stay
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MM, (not that I'm expecting a reply)
Sorry, I must have missed the debate you were talking about. I, and anyone else, be they ATCOs or drivers, who cares about flight safety would be willing to debate the merits or otherwise of rules and procedures. That's how one changes them. Contravening them (or encouraging others to do so) in the first place is not how to go about it.
Danny eloquently makes his point, you may not think that certain area's are open for debate, but if you close your mind to the fact that we can learn from other methods and ideas, then we are consigning ourselves to mediocrity.
Never fear Gonzo MM is here
Was the point I was making.
The whole L or R is a red herring, but I was more than happy to stoke the fire, so many "experts" on here rose to the bait, from uncle tom in his ratty C152, to seasoned ATCO's so in fact, I'd say I have actively encouraged debate, and helped some form opinions.
However, because my opinion and experience suggests to me that in UK airspace we rely far too much on phraseology, and neglect many many other area's that comprise the sum total of the concept commonly referred to as airmanship...does not make me a cowboy, or one who likes to live outside the rules.
So Gonzo, debate away.
The reason I have refrained from posting until now has been due to a few rather nasty personal messages recieved.
Who says we do things in the UK better and safer than anywhere else?
The whole L or R is a red herring, but I was more than happy to stoke the fire, so many "experts" on here rose to the bait, from uncle tom in his ratty C152, to seasoned ATCO's so in fact, I'd say I have actively encouraged debate, and helped some form opinions.
However, because my opinion and experience suggests to me that in UK airspace we rely far too much on phraseology, and neglect many many other area's that comprise the sum total of the concept commonly referred to as airmanship...does not make me a cowboy, or one who likes to live outside the rules.
So Gonzo, debate away.
The reason I have refrained from posting until now has been due to a few rather nasty personal messages recieved.
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as I see it, this thread was started by self-loving pilot, who has no respect for procedures on the other side of the mike. why don't you ommit your cockpit chit-chats then (namely check-lists and such), you must know them by heart by now!
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I'm still not sure that what you started was a debate.
I'd imagine someone who wanted to start a debate would be asking questions such as....
Why do we use the phraseology we do?
Why are we so reliant on standard phraseology?
Is there anything we can use to supplement it?
And one might also put forwards one's own point of view......
I believe it's naive to rely on standard R/T, because......
Here's what I'd like to see done.....etc etc.
.....such as.......
I'm all for improving 'airmanship', I see good and bad examples of that every day I'm at work. A few things worry me. I cannot communicate with flight crew by using 'airmanship'. I only have my voice, and when I'm talking to a crew from Azerbijan, or China, or the Peruvian State Flight, I use standard phraseology because some of these crew will only know maybe fifty words of standard aviation English.
Why is it such a bad thing if we use standard R/T and encourage/train good airmanship at the same time? I don't want to start thinking "Ahh, a British crew, I can just talk normally to them, but the next one's a Turkish, so I'll have to use standard phraseology to him...."
I'd imagine someone who wanted to start a debate would be asking questions such as....
Why do we use the phraseology we do?
Why are we so reliant on standard phraseology?
Is there anything we can use to supplement it?
And one might also put forwards one's own point of view......
I believe it's naive to rely on standard R/T, because......
Here's what I'd like to see done.....etc etc.
in UK airspace we rely far too much on phraseology, and neglect many many other area's.....
I'm all for improving 'airmanship', I see good and bad examples of that every day I'm at work. A few things worry me. I cannot communicate with flight crew by using 'airmanship'. I only have my voice, and when I'm talking to a crew from Azerbijan, or China, or the Peruvian State Flight, I use standard phraseology because some of these crew will only know maybe fifty words of standard aviation English.
Why is it such a bad thing if we use standard R/T and encourage/train good airmanship at the same time? I don't want to start thinking "Ahh, a British crew, I can just talk normally to them, but the next one's a Turkish, so I'll have to use standard phraseology to him...."
Last edited by Gonzo; 12th Mar 2007 at 15:59.
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If you are involved in an 'incident' or god forbid an 'accident' and you are no longer around to tell the tale (or even if you are), the fact that you may not have used correct ATC phraseology could be used to hang the 'PILOT ERROR' tag on you by the Press, the Company you have worked so loyally for or the AAIB.
Nice for the industry, your colleages and your family..
.
Always read back what is said to you
cover your arse and the arses of your crew
Nice for the industry, your colleages and your family..
.Always read back what is said to you
cover your arse and the arses of your crew
Last edited by pilotbear; 12th Mar 2007 at 11:53.
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I have read a lot of comments from people who say things like,
"ive been in this job for years" and "ive made more landings than youve had hot dinners" and other smart ar*e comments.
EXPERIENCE and COMPETENCE are two totally separate qualities.
I read the aaib reports at work and some of the things that pilots do that land them in bother really amaze me. I know of 2 particular fatal accidents, both involving light aircraft, which have left my colleagues and I asking "why on earth did they do that?"
In both examples, the comments in local newspapers etc all have words such as "he had been flying for 35 years and was very experienced".
Only by the grace of god, these sort of guys manage to bimble along all these years without killing themselves or others.
Experience is a double edged sword. It is invaluable in the hands of a competent pilot, but deadly when exercised by an incompetent.
"ive been in this job for years" and "ive made more landings than youve had hot dinners" and other smart ar*e comments.
EXPERIENCE and COMPETENCE are two totally separate qualities.
I read the aaib reports at work and some of the things that pilots do that land them in bother really amaze me. I know of 2 particular fatal accidents, both involving light aircraft, which have left my colleagues and I asking "why on earth did they do that?"
In both examples, the comments in local newspapers etc all have words such as "he had been flying for 35 years and was very experienced".
Only by the grace of god, these sort of guys manage to bimble along all these years without killing themselves or others.
Experience is a double edged sword. It is invaluable in the hands of a competent pilot, but deadly when exercised by an incompetent.
More than just an ATCO
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Reminded of words from an instructor many years ago "Good judgement comes from experience, mainly bad."
Why not do this in the accepted, standard way, not the way you want it to be - and nobody gets P'ed off with you, your blood pressure doesn't go through the roof and there's less waste of bandwidth
Why not do this in the accepted, standard way, not the way you want it to be - and nobody gets P'ed off with you, your blood pressure doesn't go through the roof and there's less waste of bandwidth
