Adam Air B737 Heavy Landing
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FCS, it would be a small number on the Vref, in the case of Adam, I guess someone figured it out that to add that weight would affect the speed attaining positive rate by a negligeable margin... and shouldn't affect approach handling... otherwise the pilots would notice. The "culprits" have been said to set such a limit also to keep CG within the 'expected'.
Now to add to the story, yesterday an Adam Air 732 RTB'ed, after something got stuck, either the flaps/slats or stabilizer. pax reported hearing "a horn like explosion", but that was denied by the company, whose official word was "something wrong with the slaps (yes, they said slaps), the horizontal piece behind the wing, that it would not go to 5 degrees"... Whatever that means...
A release came out on KKV, today stating that "no structural weaknesses were found", either that was in reference to the condition of the aircraft before the incident or after, I dunno, I hope the former though...
PK-KAR
Now to add to the story, yesterday an Adam Air 732 RTB'ed, after something got stuck, either the flaps/slats or stabilizer. pax reported hearing "a horn like explosion", but that was denied by the company, whose official word was "something wrong with the slaps (yes, they said slaps), the horizontal piece behind the wing, that it would not go to 5 degrees"... Whatever that means...
A release came out on KKV, today stating that "no structural weaknesses were found", either that was in reference to the condition of the aircraft before the incident or after, I dunno, I hope the former though...
PK-KAR
Regarding the Adam Air 737....
Did they recover the Flight Data Recorder to read out how with many G's they hit the runway?
Or has all evidence 'mysteriously' disappeared?
Did they recover the Flight Data Recorder to read out how with many G's they hit the runway?
Or has all evidence 'mysteriously' disappeared?
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Have they got it wrong?
Seems to me the maintence record is more important than the age when considering older aircraft.
"Last Updated 01/03/2007, 04:33:43
Indonesia's transport minister says new limits on the age of commercial aircraft are being considered to improve air safety.
Most Indonesian commercial airlines use refurbished aircraft, but Hatta Rajasa told reporters in Jakarta the government is considering preventing planes older than 10 years from entering the domestic fleet.
Under current regulations, planes can be up to 20 years old when they're first used, and can operate for another 15 years.
The proposal follows the crash of an 18-year-old Adam Air plane into the sea off Sulawesi on New Year's Day, in which more than 100 people are believed to have died. "
"Last Updated 01/03/2007, 04:33:43
Indonesia's transport minister says new limits on the age of commercial aircraft are being considered to improve air safety.
Most Indonesian commercial airlines use refurbished aircraft, but Hatta Rajasa told reporters in Jakarta the government is considering preventing planes older than 10 years from entering the domestic fleet.
Under current regulations, planes can be up to 20 years old when they're first used, and can operate for another 15 years.
The proposal follows the crash of an 18-year-old Adam Air plane into the sea off Sulawesi on New Year's Day, in which more than 100 people are believed to have died. "
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I was in Adam Air country last year. I pointed out all the wrinkles along the rear fuselage of a couple of their aircraft to an insurance underwriter who was rather glad that I took a good look at the Garuda 737 before we got on it.
On the subject of windshear, there are many things wrong with the current regulations. Do not laugh all you professional pilots, it is quite possible with the current meteorological readouts from ATC, you could be the next victim. I am working at it behind the scenes, and hope that ICAO will change the rules in November 07.
When there is frontal activity, or when Cbs are in the area, you need instant wind and not 2 minute average. You need wind readouts when they are relevant, not just at 10 miles to go in a procedural environment with your landing clearance.
Yes, the FDR, if working, will give you various G readings, but actually they are not that accurate for short term transients as they depend on sampling rate, when they sample in the one second cycle, the mounting in the airframe in relation to the event etc.
Happy landings
Discount
On the subject of windshear, there are many things wrong with the current regulations. Do not laugh all you professional pilots, it is quite possible with the current meteorological readouts from ATC, you could be the next victim. I am working at it behind the scenes, and hope that ICAO will change the rules in November 07.
When there is frontal activity, or when Cbs are in the area, you need instant wind and not 2 minute average. You need wind readouts when they are relevant, not just at 10 miles to go in a procedural environment with your landing clearance.
Yes, the FDR, if working, will give you various G readings, but actually they are not that accurate for short term transients as they depend on sampling rate, when they sample in the one second cycle, the mounting in the airframe in relation to the event etc.
Happy landings
Discount
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Adam Air hard landing?
I heard tonigt that this plane was overladed by an encreased seat capacity at the rear.
it may have landed Hard but as you can see the gear did not collapsed under such violent stress. I may incline to think that maybe the teory of an over load after section is a contribuiting factor credible.
knowing then that its president Owner is a guy named Adam and is only 26 year old that likes planes (like Me/us) make me wonder all the rest...but this is possible in indonesia.
it may have landed Hard but as you can see the gear did not collapsed under such violent stress. I may incline to think that maybe the teory of an over load after section is a contribuiting factor credible.
knowing then that its president Owner is a guy named Adam and is only 26 year old that likes planes (like Me/us) make me wonder all the rest...but this is possible in indonesia.
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Fuse Cracks
Anyone, want to check out the number if currect AD's out for the 737 Classics, relaing to fuselage cracking. It is possible that the mass crack on this is related to that, something there that just got bigger as it hit the deck. interesting that the crack is just aft of the belly fairing, and this is known to be one of the most vunerable areas. 
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I don't think there's any way to validate the 6G number based on FDR data - the data sampling rate won't support that kind of analysis.
If it was obtained via Boeing's stress analysis of the observed deformation, then I might place some credence in that 6G number.
If it was obtained via Boeing's stress analysis of the observed deformation, then I might place some credence in that 6G number.
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Its gone to Boeing Heaven.
J430,
B737-300, broken in half, mmmmmmmmmmmmm, repair or scrap, thats a tricky one. Considering the facts l think you can sleep safely in your bed knowing that it will be SCRAPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is an ex- aeroplane, it has gone to meet its maker, it has shuffled of its mortal coil. Boeings SRM makes no mention of how to "cut and shut" its products. you might be able to salvage a couple of soap holders, but thats yer lot matey!
B737-300, broken in half, mmmmmmmmmmmmm, repair or scrap, thats a tricky one. Considering the facts l think you can sleep safely in your bed knowing that it will be SCRAPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is an ex- aeroplane, it has gone to meet its maker, it has shuffled of its mortal coil. Boeings SRM makes no mention of how to "cut and shut" its products. you might be able to salvage a couple of soap holders, but thats yer lot matey!
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Have to agree that one is pretty well stuffed, however a B744 in Germany was the victim of a jacking stuff up and had a few creases ironed out of its rear end some time back, and I believe it went back into service. Not quite as bent as the B737 banana, but still nothing would surprise me
This is the link to a thread on another forum, and its titled A340, but it was in fact a B747.
http://www.**********/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3982
J
This is the link to a thread on another forum, and its titled A340, but it was in fact a B747.
http://www.**********/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3982
J
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I think you're right there Barit1 - since it's more a consideration of impulse as opposed to force - esp in terms of data acquisition rate. If v/s recorded at touchdown, then have to derive rate of change of v/s - and that will only lead to an approximation. I am genuinely curious to know who came up with the figure of 6G and how they arrived at it.
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a 737-300 broken in half....
.... makes two 737-150 !!!!!
and if there is some kind of inertial nav sys built in it should very well record the G's along the three axes. on the 737NG you can look up for example the G's during touchdown or the min and max G during flight.
and if there is some kind of inertial nav sys built in it should very well record the G's along the three axes. on the 737NG you can look up for example the G's during touchdown or the min and max G during flight.
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barit1,
If you're referring to the sampling rate for the vertical acceleration on the FDR, I concur.
However, if you take the last few data points for vertical speed, combine that with the landing gear geometry, and apply some basic physics, I would think you'd get a reasonable approximation for max. G. Structural analysis would then provide a cross check.
If you're referring to the sampling rate for the vertical acceleration on the FDR, I concur.
However, if you take the last few data points for vertical speed, combine that with the landing gear geometry, and apply some basic physics, I would think you'd get a reasonable approximation for max. G. Structural analysis would then provide a cross check.
barit1,
If you're referring to the sampling rate for the vertical acceleration on the FDR, I concur.
However, if you take the last few data points for vertical speed, combine that with the landing gear geometry, and apply some basic physics, I would think you'd get a reasonable approximation for max. G. Structural analysis would then provide a cross check.
If you're referring to the sampling rate for the vertical acceleration on the FDR, I concur.
However, if you take the last few data points for vertical speed, combine that with the landing gear geometry, and apply some basic physics, I would think you'd get a reasonable approximation for max. G. Structural analysis would then provide a cross check.
You do the input modeling first, as you have said, and then you tweak a couple of input varriables until you match the damage. In the end, once the model has closed on the damage, without violating known DFDR data input points, then you can interpolate missing data like vertical acceleration.
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Well, for this accident, though not yet released, the reputation of the captain and operator wouldn't surprise anyone that it is "highly likely that this accident is caused by poor judgement of the pilot, whose actions have lead the aircraft into an unstable approach, or whose actions by not deferring the approach resulted in the aircraft being affected by windshear conditions."
If the investigations were full, it should go on to "Contributory to the decision not to defer the approach is the management's view disliking wasting money for actions in the interest of safety when its benefit are not directly visibile on the company finances"...
Hey, forget the last bit, it's subjective....
PK-KAR
If the investigations were full, it should go on to "Contributory to the decision not to defer the approach is the management's view disliking wasting money for actions in the interest of safety when its benefit are not directly visibile on the company finances"...
Hey, forget the last bit, it's subjective....
PK-KAR
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Adam Air braces for possible closure after string of plane accidents
Adam Air braces for possible closure after string of plane accidents
JAKARTA (AP): Adam Air was bracing for possible closure Friday after the Indonesian government announced plans to shut down an unspecified local carrier following a string of aviation accidents, officials said.
Director General of Air Transportation Budi Mulyawan Suyitno did not identify the airline that would have its license revoked, saying only that it had recently been plagued by "frequent accidents."
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...316&ID=6623681
JAKARTA (AP): Adam Air was bracing for possible closure Friday after the Indonesian government announced plans to shut down an unspecified local carrier following a string of aviation accidents, officials said.
Director General of Air Transportation Budi Mulyawan Suyitno did not identify the airline that would have its license revoked, saying only that it had recently been plagued by "frequent accidents."
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...316&ID=6623681
, but is there a readable airframe reg in any of those pics?