BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat
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CFC- Of course they can, the rub comes if it is legal or not! and then you bring in the question of compensation etc.
Someone, somewhere will have worked out if it's worth it.
Someone, somewhere will have worked out if it's worth it.
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The strike (if any) has been sold to crew that it is legal and all 'letters of the law' have been adhered to - so what are you saying in plain English please.
Possible BA CC Strike
CFC, Perhaps they should be!!
Anyway, if there is a long drawn out strike & the airline has to largely, cut back on it's operations, as I said before, no worries, the pax will have long gone & BA will therefore not need so many staff!!
Do remember the pax folks, they may well be absolute `T Pots` at times, but they do put a lot of dosh into the airline's coffers & thus into your pay packets & pension funds.
Anyway, if there is a long drawn out strike & the airline has to largely, cut back on it's operations, as I said before, no worries, the pax will have long gone & BA will therefore not need so many staff!!
Do remember the pax folks, they may well be absolute `T Pots` at times, but they do put a lot of dosh into the airline's coffers & thus into your pay packets & pension funds.
Controversial, moi?
M.Mouse - are you insinuating that strikers can be sacked??
i.e. they wish to try and have anybody bold enough to debate the issues frightened to say what they believe for fear of falling foul of BA's anti bullying and harassment code.
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I doubt many of the cabin crew community will read this. In a sense, I hope they don't! However...
For what it's worth; It sounds like wiggy and myself (and hopefully many others) are of a similar mind. We may have reservations about BASSA, and their tactics, but there have been periods in BALPA's (not so illustrious) history when pilots have been led by donkeys!! Remember?
Pilots are told that the current (well one in particular!) bunch are pretty hot. Time will tell! But...
If ANY of the previous donkeys had balloted for industrial action, with a recommendation to strike, WHATEVER the justification, they would have achieved what they wanted wouldn't they?? As far as I recall, whenever my union has recommended ANY course of action, they have ALWAYS spelled out the CATASTROPHIC consequences of not towing the party line!!
How is BASSA different in this regard?
Some here think BASSA's requests are so unreasonable as to be a joke. I would say a fair number are not.
For example, how many pilots are happy with the workings of EG300? (The attendance management policy) Not many, judging by the comments on the BALPA website!
Another example is the MAN base. The cabin crew are simply trying to protect their jobs in the regions. There is a JFK 767 every day from MAN which is opoerated by BACON cabin crew. How would the pilot community feel, indeed, how would they want BALPA to react, if the company said the pilots would be BACON too??
Keep a lid on it guys! As I said: The cabin crew are NOT the enemy! You are taking your eye off the ball, and it is 'guffaws' all round amongst those who have just cashed in a million pounds worth of share options!
For what it's worth; It sounds like wiggy and myself (and hopefully many others) are of a similar mind. We may have reservations about BASSA, and their tactics, but there have been periods in BALPA's (not so illustrious) history when pilots have been led by donkeys!! Remember?
Pilots are told that the current (well one in particular!) bunch are pretty hot. Time will tell! But...
If ANY of the previous donkeys had balloted for industrial action, with a recommendation to strike, WHATEVER the justification, they would have achieved what they wanted wouldn't they?? As far as I recall, whenever my union has recommended ANY course of action, they have ALWAYS spelled out the CATASTROPHIC consequences of not towing the party line!!
How is BASSA different in this regard?
Some here think BASSA's requests are so unreasonable as to be a joke. I would say a fair number are not.
For example, how many pilots are happy with the workings of EG300? (The attendance management policy) Not many, judging by the comments on the BALPA website!
Another example is the MAN base. The cabin crew are simply trying to protect their jobs in the regions. There is a JFK 767 every day from MAN which is opoerated by BACON cabin crew. How would the pilot community feel, indeed, how would they want BALPA to react, if the company said the pilots would be BACON too??
Keep a lid on it guys! As I said: The cabin crew are NOT the enemy! You are taking your eye off the ball, and it is 'guffaws' all round amongst those who have just cashed in a million pounds worth of share options!
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[QUOTE=M.Mouse;3080311]No, just drawing attention to the strong arm bully boy tactics advocated by BASSA should I have the temerity to state what the law actually says about striking and being dismissed.
So M. Mouse answer the question - what does the law actually state...?
So M. Mouse answer the question - what does the law actually state...?
Controversial, moi?
My understanding is that within the first 12 weeks of a strike if you are dismissed it is AUTOMATICALLY regarded as unfair dismissal.
Your recourse is through an Employment Tribunal. The compensation is (I think) similar in calculation to the calculation for statutory redundancy pay.
The maximum is something over £50,000 but the maximum is rarely awarded and the amount is supposed to reflect lost earnings.
An employer can be ordered to reinstate the employee. If the employer refuses to do so one goes back to the ET and a further award can be made again, I believe, with a ceiling of around £50,000 and that is the end of it.
So can you be dismissed for striking? Yes.
Can you be compensated? Yes.
Can you definitely get you job back? Not definitely.
When the pilots last ballotted for strike action during the Ayling disaster BALPA clearly spelt out the risks associated with striking.
BASSA does not appear to wish to do so.
Your recourse is through an Employment Tribunal. The compensation is (I think) similar in calculation to the calculation for statutory redundancy pay.
The maximum is something over £50,000 but the maximum is rarely awarded and the amount is supposed to reflect lost earnings.
An employer can be ordered to reinstate the employee. If the employer refuses to do so one goes back to the ET and a further award can be made again, I believe, with a ceiling of around £50,000 and that is the end of it.
So can you be dismissed for striking? Yes.
Can you be compensated? Yes.
Can you definitely get you job back? Not definitely.
When the pilots last ballotted for strike action during the Ayling disaster BALPA clearly spelt out the risks associated with striking.
BASSA does not appear to wish to do so.
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TAKEN FROM BASSA WEBSITE AS POSTED BY BASSA.
NO!!
YOU CAN NOT BE SACKED
Can we state once and for all for all you can NOT be sacked if you participate in lawul industrial action
BASSA’s proposed action is LAWFUL
If any one from the flight crew community or even BA’s managers, says otherwise please take their name and staff number and report them to BASSA.
Also feel free to inform them that their intervention and comments are bullying and harrasment, and ask them to keep their opinions to themselves.
This rumour also happened in 1997 and even though only 300+ went on strike NO ONE was sacked.
Please trust your union, BASSA, and listen to no one else, THEY have other agenda
Remember YOU CAN NOT BE SACKED
NO!!
YOU CAN NOT BE SACKED
Can we state once and for all for all you can NOT be sacked if you participate in lawul industrial action
BASSA’s proposed action is LAWFUL
If any one from the flight crew community or even BA’s managers, says otherwise please take their name and staff number and report them to BASSA.
Also feel free to inform them that their intervention and comments are bullying and harrasment, and ask them to keep their opinions to themselves.
This rumour also happened in 1997 and even though only 300+ went on strike NO ONE was sacked.
Please trust your union, BASSA, and listen to no one else, THEY have other agenda
Remember YOU CAN NOT BE SACKED
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Please can you tell me which one of the 12 items you have voted to strike over (and I have looked at all of them) involves you taking a 40% pay cut and having to sell your house?
Or perhaps you have. I believe the answer is none. So why are you potentially striking? This is exactly the point I was trying to make. BASSA have got everybody worked up and telling of destruction of the union but they have balloted on the wrong things. None of the BA proposals/issues will cost you a dime in the immediate future and promotion prospects will only come from an expanding and vibrant BA, not one brought to its knees by strike action. You originally said you were striking because you were going to take a 40% pay cut and lose your house. You have admitted, based on the balloted items, that none of this will happen.
If you truly were going to lose 40% of your pay, hell, I would be on the picket line with you.
You talk about hourly rate allowances and reduced report times. Neither of these were on the strike ballot!. You have nothing to fear from hourly rate allowances. It is still the same amount of money, paid in a fairer & simpler way. We have been on it for a few years now and I personally think it is a much better system - we get the same rate everywhere we go. Compared to meal allowances, some you win, some you lose but at least we all get the same.
You also admit that BA should reduce the report times when we move to T5 as the aircraft will be closer - after all, they were increased when we moved to Compass with a 20min bus ride involved. What's sauce for the goose etc...
You mention the cap on increments for new contract CC. This is a current agreement with BASSA/CC89. So you want to break an existing agreement? If it were BA trying to do this, there would be uproar. But it's BASSA wanting to tear up the agreement so that's OK then.
To summarise, you appear to be wanting to strike against things that might happen in the future, not what is proposed now. If so, think again. There is no basis for a strike now - there might be in the future but not now.
Finally, I am still mystified where you get your 40% figure from. Even the things you mention (not part of this ballot) would have little effect on your pay. I am waiting to be enlightened.
I reiterate I am not having a pop at you, just trying to get you to see that BASSA are leading you straight into the cannons.
ATB & good luck
p.s. you CAN be sacked for going on strike within the first 12 weeks but it will automatically be deemed to be UNFAIR. Note it is unfair, not illegal. Redress is through employment tribunal as stated by others.
Full info at the DTIs website here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employme...ns/DG_10031235
The relevant points are:-
If you take industrial action, be aware that:
your employer may stop paying you as you'll be in breach of contract
you could lose your job
you could lose any company benefits
if you're dismissed you may not have the right to claim unfair dismissal
The last point doesn't apply if the correct procedure for industrial action has been followed and you're dismissed less than 12 weeks after action began.
So why are BASSA telling you that you can't be dismissed? More spin?
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M.Mouse,
IMHO the only bullies out there are the aggressive and arrogant,'listen to no one',IFS management team and Willie 'Cut & Slash' Walsh.
BALPA have done a fine job in negotiating with the pension dispute and I do not be grudge you a penny of what you get.I have listened to and been spoken at by so many pilots on how important the pension issue is which is fine as your is worth fighting for.
At the end of service my pension will amount to very little but what does matter to myself and 14000 Cabin Crew are our present terms & conditions which we rely on for today.
BASSA keep getting branded as militant for standing up and protecting it's membership.If BALPA does not succeed in getting it's members to accept the BA pension proposal and the Pilot community voted for industrial action to protect their pension would that then class BALPA as militant.At the end of the day a strike is a strike so why should we say BALPA are not militant if that was to occur?.
Just a thought.
WTDWL.
PS. Eddy fine posts.See you at the 'floorplate'!! meeting on Wednesday?.
Peter.
IMHO the only bullies out there are the aggressive and arrogant,'listen to no one',IFS management team and Willie 'Cut & Slash' Walsh.
BALPA have done a fine job in negotiating with the pension dispute and I do not be grudge you a penny of what you get.I have listened to and been spoken at by so many pilots on how important the pension issue is which is fine as your is worth fighting for.
At the end of service my pension will amount to very little but what does matter to myself and 14000 Cabin Crew are our present terms & conditions which we rely on for today.
BASSA keep getting branded as militant for standing up and protecting it's membership.If BALPA does not succeed in getting it's members to accept the BA pension proposal and the Pilot community voted for industrial action to protect their pension would that then class BALPA as militant.At the end of the day a strike is a strike so why should we say BALPA are not militant if that was to occur?.
Just a thought.
WTDWL.
PS. Eddy fine posts.See you at the 'floorplate'!! meeting on Wednesday?.
Peter.
PPRuNe Person
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OzzieO. It doesn't matter what BASSA says. BA can sack strikers and pay compensation in the Tribunal. They don't have to reinstate.
A good way of getting rid of those they see as troublemakers?
A good way of getting rid of those they see as troublemakers?
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Thanks for the reply Eddy. However, I don't believe you answered my origininal question which was:-
Please can you tell me which one of the 12 items you have voted to strike over (and I have looked at all of them) involves you taking a 40% pay cut and having to sell your house?
Please can you tell me which one of the 12 items you have voted to strike over (and I have looked at all of them) involves you taking a 40% pay cut and having to sell your house?
As such, the points you refer to are not the only ones being discussed.
At this point in the conversation I'd like to add a few things :
1) I love my job
2) I really love my job
3) I love the company I work for
4) I have nothing but respect for my upper-management. They have been employed to do a job and they are doing it, however badly one might see this as being done.
Bottom line - I hate that the company name has been damaged as a result of my (and my peers') mission, if you will, to protect our earnings. I want a fair deal that can be agreed to by both the unions and the company AND I HOPE that we can reach this deal without a walkout coming to fruition.
Again, chaps, a full response will follow in the morning.
Best wishes
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Copied from another forum.
Thought it might be interest.
Thought it might be interest.
The situation that we as crew and our management find ourselves in seems to be entirely different depending on whom you listen to...
If you listen to BASSA and read the postings on their website it seems that the company is doing a large-scale smash and grab on our Ts&Cs with imposition being the order of the day.
If you listen to Amicus they are in talks with the company and have made some progress. I had a letter from their full time officer on my door mat when I got home with an update on the issues in dispute as follows:
Pensions - BA Reps will be meeting on the 22nd Jan to discuss the proposals prior to membership being consulted.
Buses - Will be extended to run over the weekend.
LGW Breakfast - Offer has been made by BA, the decision on whether to accept it rests with LGW fleet reps and LGW crew.
EG300 - Matter is of major importance, any review is the property of all BA employees. There are items specific to cabin crew that Amicus are adressing and BA have acknowledged this and proposed a number of changes. Proposals have been made to change ill-health retirement arrangements also.
Report time - BA admit there are issues and have agreed that it can be dealt with at Worldwide Steering.
WTR - BA agree that 900 hours is the maximum number of flying hours permissible. Training days are now being considered as duty. Discussion are continuing.
MAN - Objections at the manner in which the closre was managed have been registered along with concerns over the future of GLA. As the decision on MAN will not be reversed, the closure will not be included in ongoing discussions.
Preferred Seller - BA's proposals have been withdrawn. BA invited Amicus to come forward with ideas to maximise revenue.
Fixed links - Has been referred back to EF Steering. Amicus raised the issue of rest breaks under the WTR. BA has been asked to demostrate their compliance with this in their duty time allocations. Further discussions will take place on this matter.
Single Supervisory Grade - Amicus believes that this has been dealt with outside the current discussions and therefore does not form part of their current discussions.
PSR/JNR Swap - This is of primary importance to Amicus. Further discussions will take place on this issue although BA have stated their determination to go ahead with this proposal. Amicus has asked for guarantees in respect of promotion and employment continuity. Discussion will continue.
Post '97 Payscales - Item is of utmost importance. BA has said they could make money available to help resolve the issue. In terms of over all costs there seems to be no opportunity for levelling of the payscales. Discussions are ongoing.
Maybe I am reading this wrong but it does not seem that discussions have ground to a halt as the 'walking egos' of BASSA seem to suggest. I'll hold my hands up now and say that I am not a great fan of industrial action, I've been out before and will do again if I need to because I am left with no choice but we do not seem to have reached that point yet.
Unfortunately a large number of my colleagues seem to wait on every word (and text message) uttered by BASSA and consume each pearl of wisdom with unnerring trust without stopping to question a thing that they have been told. The reps are held in such reverence that to dare to consider any other point of view except that which is passed down from on high is shouted down as herecy and treason by their coterie of bully-boys.
Here's hoping that one day the politicking and double-speak that is used to brainwash a large number of cabin crew is seen for what it is before too much damage is done.
If you listen to BASSA and read the postings on their website it seems that the company is doing a large-scale smash and grab on our Ts&Cs with imposition being the order of the day.
If you listen to Amicus they are in talks with the company and have made some progress. I had a letter from their full time officer on my door mat when I got home with an update on the issues in dispute as follows:
Pensions - BA Reps will be meeting on the 22nd Jan to discuss the proposals prior to membership being consulted.
Buses - Will be extended to run over the weekend.
LGW Breakfast - Offer has been made by BA, the decision on whether to accept it rests with LGW fleet reps and LGW crew.
EG300 - Matter is of major importance, any review is the property of all BA employees. There are items specific to cabin crew that Amicus are adressing and BA have acknowledged this and proposed a number of changes. Proposals have been made to change ill-health retirement arrangements also.
Report time - BA admit there are issues and have agreed that it can be dealt with at Worldwide Steering.
WTR - BA agree that 900 hours is the maximum number of flying hours permissible. Training days are now being considered as duty. Discussion are continuing.
MAN - Objections at the manner in which the closre was managed have been registered along with concerns over the future of GLA. As the decision on MAN will not be reversed, the closure will not be included in ongoing discussions.
Preferred Seller - BA's proposals have been withdrawn. BA invited Amicus to come forward with ideas to maximise revenue.
Fixed links - Has been referred back to EF Steering. Amicus raised the issue of rest breaks under the WTR. BA has been asked to demostrate their compliance with this in their duty time allocations. Further discussions will take place on this matter.
Single Supervisory Grade - Amicus believes that this has been dealt with outside the current discussions and therefore does not form part of their current discussions.
PSR/JNR Swap - This is of primary importance to Amicus. Further discussions will take place on this issue although BA have stated their determination to go ahead with this proposal. Amicus has asked for guarantees in respect of promotion and employment continuity. Discussion will continue.
Post '97 Payscales - Item is of utmost importance. BA has said they could make money available to help resolve the issue. In terms of over all costs there seems to be no opportunity for levelling of the payscales. Discussions are ongoing.
Maybe I am reading this wrong but it does not seem that discussions have ground to a halt as the 'walking egos' of BASSA seem to suggest. I'll hold my hands up now and say that I am not a great fan of industrial action, I've been out before and will do again if I need to because I am left with no choice but we do not seem to have reached that point yet.
Unfortunately a large number of my colleagues seem to wait on every word (and text message) uttered by BASSA and consume each pearl of wisdom with unnerring trust without stopping to question a thing that they have been told. The reps are held in such reverence that to dare to consider any other point of view except that which is passed down from on high is shouted down as herecy and treason by their coterie of bully-boys.
Here's hoping that one day the politicking and double-speak that is used to brainwash a large number of cabin crew is seen for what it is before too much damage is done.
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I have taken SOME of the points and responded to them here. I'd removed others that are either too complex to discuss, I don't have the patience to discuss (because we all know what's going on with them and share similar views), or don't really affect me directly - like fixed links and CSD removal on shorthaul. I would prefer to leave those to a colleague from Shorthaul to discuss.
2. BUSES (commuting cabin crew)
By Mouse : I believe that the removal of the bus service was causing some difficulty for commuting crew. Valid grievance but a strike issue?
By Eddy : To an extent, yes (this has been causing difficulty). A huge portion of the BA cabin crew workforce commutes by air to Heathrow and relies on, midweek, the BA shuttles to ferry them between the terminals and the Compass Centre.
In the past there was a dedicated crew shuttle but it was cancelled about, gosh, nine months ago. Why the company chose to cancel it just eighteen months before a move to Terminal Five is anyone's guess.... Terminal Five will sort this situation once and for all, as the report centre is within the main terminal.
Anyway, at weekends the BA buses that we now use (which are actually 'designed' for Waterside residents) do not run and we have to rely on public buses. Normally not a problem, but when you have three or four cabin crew with Delseys and cabin bags trying to get on a bus with all and sundry (many of them with luggage), you get problems. Crew are routinely denied boarding because of space limitations.
Is it a serious issue? Well, not really. Is it worth striking over? Absolutely not. Is it something that could be easily rectified (and it looks like it has been) fairly cheaply? Indeed. Extending the BA5 to visit the terminals on weekends only would be a perfect compromise.
3. GATWICK BREAKFAST ALLOWANCE (Gatwick cabin crew)
By Mouse : BASSA want the existing Gatwick shorthaul breakfast arrangements to be applied across Gatwick longhaul flying.
Another minor issue and didn't BA offer a 4% increase in the hourly rate at LGW to 'buy off' this issue?
By Eddy : Do the maths matey. A 4% increase in the hourly rate over the course of a three day Dallas trip equates to little over four quid. Find me a decent breakfast in America for four quid (apart from McDonalds) and I'll eat my hat.... Well, I would if I had one.
Further, I don't think that the union were consulted about this change. It was just imposed. When we signed up to SFLGW, breakfast allowances WERE being paid. It was part of the deal. For the company to just change things is really not on when we have a union in place.
4. EG300 (all cabin crew)
By Mouse : The new absence management policy was agreed with BASSA and Amicus in October 2005. CC received £1,000 each upon signing up. CC don't like its implementation, nothing to do with the fact that it HAS dramatically reduced the still high levels of CC social sickness. BASSA have tried to make the policy unworkable by insisting that every return to work interview was attended by a BASSA rep as well.
What are BASSA actually asking for on this issue?
By Eddy : The biggest part of the problem is that things that SHOULD be discounted under the terms that we signed up to, are not being. Friend of mine had route canal surgery in America. It's classed as invasive which should be immediately discounted. Was it? Like hell it was.
You're right that social sickness is a problem. It's a big problem but one that IS improving with EG300. The problem is that those who are genuinely unwell and cannot work are paying the price. Often paying more than those who are calling sick to watch Ascot.
EG300 should be working. Infact, it does work to a large extent. We just need the company or, more precisely, those leading the attendance interviews and making the decisions about discounting illness, to stick to the rules as we signed up for.
5. DOWNROUTE REPORT TIME
By Mouse : Report times are generally set so that crew arrive with sufficient time to enable an on time departure. If times become too rigidly controlled you watch the opportunity to quickly visit the duty free shop disappear. Again a small issue not worthy of a strike ballot.
Our report times have gradually been brought forward without anyone really noticing - five minutes here, five minutes there, etc. It's logical to try and get us to the airport as early as possible (within reason) to make a timely departure, but we need to make sure that these extra minutes are being counted towards our duty - they're not at the moment.
Small issue perhaps, but a breach of our agreements. Attempt to have this rectified by talking have failed, so it's been added to the list of items we're looking to take action over. By itself it's not the extra time that's the issue - it's the breaking of industrial agreements.
6. 900 HOURS annual flight time limit.
By Mouse : BASSA wanted guarantees that when cabin crew reach 900 flying hours they will not be used for any duty, e.g. training.
The EU working time directive says that an employee cannot be rostered to work more than 900 flying hours, or 2,000 duty hours, in a rolling 12-month period.
Heaven forbid that BA want to utilise previously available working time
instead of giving it as free time off.
By Eddy : I agree with you to an extent. Only problem is that this company has, in the past, deliberately recruited people from around Europe. People who don't live in the UK. This went a long way to establishing the culture of commuting to work and, as such, a massive part of the crew community does so.
I have no real problem with being asked to do the occasional course. It's in the remit of my role as crew. That's fine. I do have an issue with being asked (or told) to work in the terminal. THAT is not my job. I am cabin crew and I'm happy to do anything that is linked with MY JOB. I don't want to have to be doing someone elses just because some halfwit in the EU decided to make up this rediculous law.
Further, making these courses in London is an obvious choice for the airline, but as commuting costs increase, I routinely have to spend over 100.00 (on flight and hotel) to attend a four hour training course.
My choice to live where I live, but the company encouraged commuting in the past and should try and be more considerate when rostering courses to people - and not just those who fly in to London.
8. PREFERRED DUTY FREE SELLER
By Mouse : This issue is about maximising revenue generation onboard from High Life Shop and, I believe, was about the best person for the role of bar operator, as opposed to a seniority-based selection process, operating the duty free trolley.
So let everybody have a go at duty free sales at the cost of selling less and reducing BAs income stream?
By Eddy : I am personally in favour of this.
11. PURSER/JUNIOR SWAP (B747)
By Mouse : BA want to reduce the number of pursers on a B747 from four to three.
So we need 1 x CSD and 4 x pursers for a crew of 16 - 18?
Speaks for itself!
By Eddy : I'd love the chance to go for promotion. Looks like I'll never get it. You'd be surprised at how many people online don't actually see this as a big issue. Most (or many) do actually seem willing to let the Purser go. I withhold judgement.
That said, if the company do remove the purser and reduce my chances of promotion so drastically, I would hope that they'd put in place another means for me to leave my 14k earning ceiling. This, of course, brings us on to :
12. POST-1997 CC PAYSCALES
By Mouse : BASSA wish the current £15,000 p.a. BASIC pay cap to be removed.
These were the pay scales agreed for the new entrants after the debacle of the 1997 strike. BASSA now want to change what they agreed to increase BASIC pay levels above £15,000?
By Eddy : This is a tricky one. I think this popped up because of a new link that's been put in place for our ground colleagues that sees the old and new payscales meet up, much like we're trying to put in place in the air.
Where will the money come from? I have no idea. We're talking about a lot of extra cash over time. I'd love to see my salary continue to rise past my current ceiling and I thank my reps, most of whom are on the old payscale or in senior roles where the payscales are largely the same, for taking on this 'cause'. I do, however, think that this will be the most difficult issue for us to 'win'.
If the company takes the purser away, I'd say that this is an absolute MUST to enable people's earnings to increase over time. I don't want to be a 60 year old bloke (and I do hope to still be at BA by the time I'm 60 - yes, I love the company that much) flying around on 14k a year. Whether that increase comes from the above proposal OR from promotion, I don't really mind (as much as I'd love promotion). That said, it would be great to have both options and that, I think, is what the unions are fighting to offer us.
2. BUSES (commuting cabin crew)
By Mouse : I believe that the removal of the bus service was causing some difficulty for commuting crew. Valid grievance but a strike issue?
By Eddy : To an extent, yes (this has been causing difficulty). A huge portion of the BA cabin crew workforce commutes by air to Heathrow and relies on, midweek, the BA shuttles to ferry them between the terminals and the Compass Centre.
In the past there was a dedicated crew shuttle but it was cancelled about, gosh, nine months ago. Why the company chose to cancel it just eighteen months before a move to Terminal Five is anyone's guess.... Terminal Five will sort this situation once and for all, as the report centre is within the main terminal.
Anyway, at weekends the BA buses that we now use (which are actually 'designed' for Waterside residents) do not run and we have to rely on public buses. Normally not a problem, but when you have three or four cabin crew with Delseys and cabin bags trying to get on a bus with all and sundry (many of them with luggage), you get problems. Crew are routinely denied boarding because of space limitations.
Is it a serious issue? Well, not really. Is it worth striking over? Absolutely not. Is it something that could be easily rectified (and it looks like it has been) fairly cheaply? Indeed. Extending the BA5 to visit the terminals on weekends only would be a perfect compromise.
3. GATWICK BREAKFAST ALLOWANCE (Gatwick cabin crew)
By Mouse : BASSA want the existing Gatwick shorthaul breakfast arrangements to be applied across Gatwick longhaul flying.
Another minor issue and didn't BA offer a 4% increase in the hourly rate at LGW to 'buy off' this issue?
By Eddy : Do the maths matey. A 4% increase in the hourly rate over the course of a three day Dallas trip equates to little over four quid. Find me a decent breakfast in America for four quid (apart from McDonalds) and I'll eat my hat.... Well, I would if I had one.
Further, I don't think that the union were consulted about this change. It was just imposed. When we signed up to SFLGW, breakfast allowances WERE being paid. It was part of the deal. For the company to just change things is really not on when we have a union in place.
4. EG300 (all cabin crew)
By Mouse : The new absence management policy was agreed with BASSA and Amicus in October 2005. CC received £1,000 each upon signing up. CC don't like its implementation, nothing to do with the fact that it HAS dramatically reduced the still high levels of CC social sickness. BASSA have tried to make the policy unworkable by insisting that every return to work interview was attended by a BASSA rep as well.
What are BASSA actually asking for on this issue?
By Eddy : The biggest part of the problem is that things that SHOULD be discounted under the terms that we signed up to, are not being. Friend of mine had route canal surgery in America. It's classed as invasive which should be immediately discounted. Was it? Like hell it was.
You're right that social sickness is a problem. It's a big problem but one that IS improving with EG300. The problem is that those who are genuinely unwell and cannot work are paying the price. Often paying more than those who are calling sick to watch Ascot.
EG300 should be working. Infact, it does work to a large extent. We just need the company or, more precisely, those leading the attendance interviews and making the decisions about discounting illness, to stick to the rules as we signed up for.
5. DOWNROUTE REPORT TIME
By Mouse : Report times are generally set so that crew arrive with sufficient time to enable an on time departure. If times become too rigidly controlled you watch the opportunity to quickly visit the duty free shop disappear. Again a small issue not worthy of a strike ballot.
Our report times have gradually been brought forward without anyone really noticing - five minutes here, five minutes there, etc. It's logical to try and get us to the airport as early as possible (within reason) to make a timely departure, but we need to make sure that these extra minutes are being counted towards our duty - they're not at the moment.
Small issue perhaps, but a breach of our agreements. Attempt to have this rectified by talking have failed, so it's been added to the list of items we're looking to take action over. By itself it's not the extra time that's the issue - it's the breaking of industrial agreements.
6. 900 HOURS annual flight time limit.
By Mouse : BASSA wanted guarantees that when cabin crew reach 900 flying hours they will not be used for any duty, e.g. training.
The EU working time directive says that an employee cannot be rostered to work more than 900 flying hours, or 2,000 duty hours, in a rolling 12-month period.
Heaven forbid that BA want to utilise previously available working time
instead of giving it as free time off.
By Eddy : I agree with you to an extent. Only problem is that this company has, in the past, deliberately recruited people from around Europe. People who don't live in the UK. This went a long way to establishing the culture of commuting to work and, as such, a massive part of the crew community does so.
I have no real problem with being asked to do the occasional course. It's in the remit of my role as crew. That's fine. I do have an issue with being asked (or told) to work in the terminal. THAT is not my job. I am cabin crew and I'm happy to do anything that is linked with MY JOB. I don't want to have to be doing someone elses just because some halfwit in the EU decided to make up this rediculous law.
Further, making these courses in London is an obvious choice for the airline, but as commuting costs increase, I routinely have to spend over 100.00 (on flight and hotel) to attend a four hour training course.
My choice to live where I live, but the company encouraged commuting in the past and should try and be more considerate when rostering courses to people - and not just those who fly in to London.
8. PREFERRED DUTY FREE SELLER
By Mouse : This issue is about maximising revenue generation onboard from High Life Shop and, I believe, was about the best person for the role of bar operator, as opposed to a seniority-based selection process, operating the duty free trolley.
So let everybody have a go at duty free sales at the cost of selling less and reducing BAs income stream?
By Eddy : I am personally in favour of this.
11. PURSER/JUNIOR SWAP (B747)
By Mouse : BA want to reduce the number of pursers on a B747 from four to three.
So we need 1 x CSD and 4 x pursers for a crew of 16 - 18?
Speaks for itself!
By Eddy : I'd love the chance to go for promotion. Looks like I'll never get it. You'd be surprised at how many people online don't actually see this as a big issue. Most (or many) do actually seem willing to let the Purser go. I withhold judgement.
That said, if the company do remove the purser and reduce my chances of promotion so drastically, I would hope that they'd put in place another means for me to leave my 14k earning ceiling. This, of course, brings us on to :
12. POST-1997 CC PAYSCALES
By Mouse : BASSA wish the current £15,000 p.a. BASIC pay cap to be removed.
These were the pay scales agreed for the new entrants after the debacle of the 1997 strike. BASSA now want to change what they agreed to increase BASIC pay levels above £15,000?
By Eddy : This is a tricky one. I think this popped up because of a new link that's been put in place for our ground colleagues that sees the old and new payscales meet up, much like we're trying to put in place in the air.
Where will the money come from? I have no idea. We're talking about a lot of extra cash over time. I'd love to see my salary continue to rise past my current ceiling and I thank my reps, most of whom are on the old payscale or in senior roles where the payscales are largely the same, for taking on this 'cause'. I do, however, think that this will be the most difficult issue for us to 'win'.
If the company takes the purser away, I'd say that this is an absolute MUST to enable people's earnings to increase over time. I don't want to be a 60 year old bloke (and I do hope to still be at BA by the time I'm 60 - yes, I love the company that much) flying around on 14k a year. Whether that increase comes from the above proposal OR from promotion, I don't really mind (as much as I'd love promotion). That said, it would be great to have both options and that, I think, is what the unions are fighting to offer us.
Controversial, moi?
BALPA have done a fine job in negotiating with the pension dispute and I do not be grudge you a penny of what you get. At the end of service my pension will amount to very little......
The resulting proposals are as good as it will get. All things considered it is the best of a damage limitation exercise. The deal for flying staff was particularly difficult to negotiate given that we all stood to lose the most e.g. being compelled to work and extra 10 years for similar benefits.
The GMB and BASSA are posturing on this issue and just watch, the pension proposal will be accepted at the last minute and hailed as a vast improvement over what you would have got had BASSA nor been so effective!
Ask BASSA what they propose to do with the £6m ring fenced for CC. They have been deliberately quiet about that. The effect on your pension arrangements, if used in the right way, is dramatic (I have seen the numbers).
BASSA instead are referring to a bribe of £9m to the pilots as though it is being divvied up between us. It was used to mitigate the effect of having to work an extra 10 years. BASSA have not proposed anything with your money but have used spin anmd deceipt to alienate further the CC from the FC by claiming we took a bribe. They are lying.
BASSA keep getting branded as militant for standing up and protecting its membership.
From conversations I have had with many, many cabin crew they are now scared witless at the thought of actually going on strike. As has been said to me by various, expecially younger crew, 'but I cannot afford to go on strike'. When I ask if they voted to 'oh yes!'. That is because BASSA were not honest about the true situation should a strike be called. BALPA is truthful in this regard. BALPA also tells us the full story and sets achievable goals and does not go for the nuclear option over small and petty issues.
BALPA held a large face to face briefing for city analysts and the like to present to them what BA's proposals meant and what BALPA proposed instead. There were some gasps of suprise at the true effect of some of BA's original proposals.
Contrast that mature, intelligent and effective strategy with BASSA's current stance and the spin and nonsense emanating from your representatives.
You would be suprised at the level of support you would enjoy from pilot's if we truly believed you had solid and serious issues to fight over. The reason you do not enjoy that support is because we almost daily see the generally obstructive and outdated results of BASSA's stance on so many issues. Finally somebody has arrived who is not prepared to see the tail wagging the dog any longer. BASSA have sleep walked into this confrontation and have been set up for a very large fall.
All staff will suffer as a result because WW is effectively going to neuter the unions. BASSA will rue the day it started this fight.
Eddy, thank you for spending the time to actually answer some of the questions posed. I think further input from me is pointless because we now know how both of us see most of the issues.
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Heliport,
Thanks for that post. What a pleasure to see a reasoned, adult, intelligently written newsletter from Amicus. Contrast that with the illiterate rants from BASSA that are full of spin & rhetoric.
I also agree with M.Mouse that a lot of pilots would support the CC if we believed they had a genuine lifestyle threatening grievance but not one of the 12 items is that.
Eddy, thanks for continuing to post. I await your reply to my 40% question with interest
Thanks for that post. What a pleasure to see a reasoned, adult, intelligently written newsletter from Amicus. Contrast that with the illiterate rants from BASSA that are full of spin & rhetoric.
I also agree with M.Mouse that a lot of pilots would support the CC if we believed they had a genuine lifestyle threatening grievance but not one of the 12 items is that.
Eddy, thanks for continuing to post. I await your reply to my 40% question with interest
Last edited by Flying Fred; 21st Jan 2007 at 11:25. Reason: adding comment to Eddy
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The twelve points listed INCLUDE BUT ARE NOT LIMITED TO the reasons why the strike has been called.
As previously mentioned, the uncertainty over hourly rate is another major issue that's being discussed but, as it's not technically on the table right now, it can't be listed as one of the strike points (I believe that's a legal thing).
The comapny put hourly rate on the table and swiftly removed it, but we can't live with the uncertainty over when it will be re-visited. Hourly rate would have a MASSIVE impact on my earnings, unless we got a deal similar to that offered to my flight crew colleagues.
I would personally welcome a shift to hourly rate if it was done on mutually agreeable terms. I'd welcome the removal of box payments IF the money was put in to the pot and distributed through the hourly amount.
By doing this, people would start requesting trips they actually wanted because they enjoyed the place as opposed to purely for the financial gain. Lots of people love India but try and aboid it because it's worth about 40 quid. If these trips suddenly became worth the same money as a New York or a Chicago, you'd probably find people happier to be flying there and see a lot less people ringing sick for the poorly paid trips.
Yes, Singapore would be worth much, much less, but things would be evened out over the month and you'd be a lot less reliant on getting a long range trip to bring home a decent pay packet.
The reason this isn't being agreed to at this point is that the company aren't willing to guarantee that either the boxes will remain or that the money will be re-distributed.
Bear in mind that we can only do 2000 duty hours a year. On the 2.40 (or whatever - I know it's about that) an hour rate that could be a maximum of just 4,800 a year extra on top of my maximum 14k pay packet. Thats the most I'd EVER earn if the hourly rate was passed through on the company terms.
The reps have said it themselves - let US set the terms (but ensuring they're agreeable to the company - i.e. not costing any more than we do already) for hourly rate and we'll accept the proposal.