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Another Aircraft off the Runway at BRS?

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Another Aircraft off the Runway at BRS?

Old 30th Dec 2006, 13:14
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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My two Pence worth...

Braking action mid point is to be totally ignored @ Brs IMHO. As soon as there is even a hint of moisture on it it has the friction characteristics of a greasy pole..... @ a strip joint!! I strongly urge all involved at BRS to treat this runway with the respect it NOW deserves.

What the reason for this is I don't know.. Or care... SOMEONE @ BRS must be a wee bit nervous now.

What the stats are for departing the runway @ Brs I don't know but surely 3 in as many weeks Ain't good?
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 14:06
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Originally Posted by Scimitar
I operated 757s (and occasionally 767-300s) in and out of Bristol for 15 years and can't help wondering what all the fuss is about. Have they done something to the runway recently that has altered the friction effect?
Ah yes perhaps to explain,the runway is in the process of being resurfaced,with the work done at night by contractors, the top surface in @ the middle 'third' is only a temporary surface until the proper top surface can be laid full length.

ttfn
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 14:47
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Why are they giving B/A figures on a wet runway?
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 15:34
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Good point A/P.

Under normal circumastances, with a grip tester or mu meter, it is not possible to give B/A readings when the runway is wet.
This is rammed down our throats every autumn when the annual winter snow op's are published.

What do Bristol know that we don't???
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 16:02
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It seem that Bristol is just like an African airfield . Maybe they should take leaf from the Nigerian book and close it down at short notice for repair . At DNPO there were other problems also with the airfield, but it was close at less than 2 days notice in August and the runway will be resurface by Julius Berger. If I visit UK I must take note not to fly to Bristol. Cardiff is also close and seems not to have these problem - or maybe I just go to Londres and take a train - zut, no your British trains are really awful and alwasy problems with leaf on the line
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 16:04
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Many of us have been MOR ing this dreadful runway for several weeks. It beggars belief that nothing has been done about it.

BA today introduced panic measure restrictions massively limiting the operational ability of its aircraft out of BRS with wet and crosswinds. Many services will have to be cancelled or divert............

The more fundamental point is that Bristol airport istelf is actualy a joke.

It is in the wrong place, badly served by road let alone rail.

Its in the cloud

It is a short runway with no room to extend

There is inadequate parking

Its facilities are bursting at the seems.

It is completely the wrong place for a major commercial operation and now it is suggested that it is to double in size!!!!!!!!!!

Filton would have been just the ticket.
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 16:11
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Spot on and what runway it does have is of such uneven profile that landing in difficult weather especially blustery winds and cat 3 operations are always marginal.Why it was ever developed in preference to Filton is just beyond belief.As the safety culture in our industry disapears under commercial pressure I fear it will all end in tears.
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 16:52
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The reason for poor braking in sections at the mo' is its being re-surfaced by night. This leaves a smooth slippy surface. The 'substance' then has to harden for around a week before the grooves can be applied to prevent sitting water. That is where the issue is!
Credit to 2 EZY pilots earlier who refused to depart despite pressure from ATC. They had received a company memo (in light of the incidents), stating not to operate with a crosswind of more than 15kt when the r/way is wet wet wet! This included gusts!! The wind was 21012G18 so they refused!!
Nice one EZY..
Also about the comments on the logistics of Cardiff airport!! Now now!!
A 20 minute drive from the center, compared to the interesting 'hop' to LGW from say piccadilly circus is not even comparable!!
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 17:19
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http://www.chew76.fsnet.co.uk/lulsgate/lulsgate.html
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 17:39
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Look folks, it's simple. They are resurfacing the rwy. The new bit is not the final upper layer. There's no point grooving it as the final 'finish' or ' wearing course' is the only one you'll see once the job is done, and it will be grooved.
The stuff they are laying at the moment has sweet FA in the way of grip when even mildly wet. It can't be grooved as it's not the top layer.

a/c will therefore continue to have 'grip related' incidents, either braking or directional for the forseeable.

If BRS don't sit back and have a wee think here, they'll get themselves shut- which would be no bad thing as it's a total sh*thole anyway which only a moron would prefer to Filton.

Gurt lush my babbers!

Actually I quite like the place but why? I don't know!

We've now got a reduced crosswind limit too (20KT) and as any fule no, thats going to rule BRS out on a great many days!
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 17:41
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I once flew an ATC manager from BRS on the jump seat for a famil trip ( ah those days...............) and that Filton/ Lulsgate question came up. I remember him saying that Brymon had just been investigating a possible move, but the runway at Fil was only full strength at either end (as was the military spec at the time - who needs to land anywhere else than the numbers biggles?), not full length as is needed for civil ops. It made sense, maybe someone else would know if true. It was also not available now because BAE had sold all the surrounding land for houses and Cribbs Causway, so the council would not give the planning consent for regular commercial operations.

Shame 'cause it would have been much better than BRS as said earlier.
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 18:03
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Sorry but Niknak is correct, should not take B/A readings on wet runway as unreliable-we have not done so for years-but we still get asked!
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 21:48
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Originally Posted by brain fade
Merchant
30Kts wet or dry. I'm on the ERJ-145's that are operated by BA Connect.
It's a friendly airport if you follow me, and I love our handling folk. But the airport and ATC are totally rule-bound and full of the silly rules that only small 'international' airports love.

Still, that's a small price to pay for a really good regional airfield!

Filton would do ALL Lulsgate does, but better.

ps. Hi Standard.

pps. Does ATCOJ30 talk that way at home?
Brain Fade,

I have spent the last 12 years ensuring pilots like you can operate safely into and out of this small 'international' airport; most of which were spent separating you and your colleagues from the myriad of military and light aircraft operating outside CAS. I also hit the bells last night for the unfortunate crew who slipped off of the runway and spent the next 15 minutes ensuring they and their passengers were OK. None of us are content with the current runway situation and advised the airport authority of our disquiet at a very early stage during the works - we are now working with them to provide the most accurate and timley information to all crews operating to/from EGGD.

Be careful accusing a professional group of people (like you and your fellow BA pilots) of being 'totally rule bound'; it probably means we ARE professional and, like the best pilots, are not prepared to cut corners for expediency. We are here to provide you with a service and keep you safe - it's worth remembering that before you next denigrate Bristol ATC.
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Old 30th Dec 2006, 22:04
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Back to my question: Who is going to be in the firing line and covered in manure for a/c going cross country?
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Old 31st Dec 2006, 00:14
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RAT

Well not BRS atc for sure.
Blame the pilots!

I'm sure you're not content with the state of the runway. I had my first aquaplane on it about 8 weeks ago.

I regret not filing on it for sure. So partly to blame...

Whose idea was it to do the job in Winter?
Churchillian.

You're like a lot of folk at these 'regional' airports. You think you're sh*t hot but the truth is you could try a lot harder.

Try talking less for starters. It's a simplex net.

Also if you could 'cut a few corners' expeditiously AND safely, would that be welcome, do you think?

Last edited by brain fade; 31st Dec 2006 at 10:35.
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Old 31st Dec 2006, 04:00
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Back to my question: Who is going to be in the firing line and covered in manure for a/c going cross country?
Priceless....

Whose idea was it to do the job in Winter?
You couldn't even contemplate doing it in the summer!! It would work for the sched airlines, but it doesn't give the charters the r/way use they need!! We enjoy our red eye flights......dont take them away from us....
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Old 31st Dec 2006, 10:41
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Windsheer

Doing it in summer would mean it would be dry a lot more of the time. Then the lack of grip would not be so likely to cause problems as you'd need the combination of low friction, wet rwy and awful weather. Now while this would still happen in summer it would not happen so often.

There have been at least THREE offs recently and probably more to come. I could be one of them!

So how safe is that?

They should have shut foggy bottom for a few months and operated from Filton.

Trouble is..........no one would want to go back!
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Old 31st Dec 2006, 10:46
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Now,now gentleman i,ve worked Bristol ATC in various aircraft from a 767 to Robinson 44 and always found them very good.I,m sure they are as disgusted with the substandard runway that they find themselves supervising under ever increasing commercial pressure even when in its normal condition let alone the current degraded state.We,re all in this together ,remember the management ,politicians and lawyers are very good at hiding behind and finding fault with the license holders be they,pilots,enigineers or controllers.
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Old 31st Dec 2006, 13:01
  #39 (permalink)  
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Stampe - indeed we are, disgusted that is.
Fadey - change the habit of a lifetime and stop blaming ATC at Briss for everything. You're meant to be intelligent to be a pilot, use your intelligence or use some of your over inflated salary to buy some. Several of my colleagues (including Churchillian, who is one of the most skilled and professional ATCOs I've ever worked with) have been put in an uneasy situation over the last few days where things have gone wrong and they have had to put into practice procedures that we hope we never have to use. We don't like it, but that's the way it is. God forbid you find yourself in the position two of your fellow professionals found themselves in on Friday. You might just be glad that Churchillian and the rest of us know what we're doing and are there to press the big red button. Or you could go to work for proper airline, oh silly me, you will be soon!

The fault with all of this lies with BIA and Lagan, the rest of us, pilots ant ATCers alike just have to cope with it. If you don't like it, transfer elsewhere (oh, bit of deja vu there!).

Last edited by Standard Noise; 6th Jan 2007 at 11:16.
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Old 31st Dec 2006, 13:08
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The only reason that BRS is still open and operating is the fact that there were no fatalities or serious injuries associated with the last 3 incidents.

IMHO, if the ATC personnel and flightcrew at the airfield are aware of the deficiencies and are unhappy with the the runway situation, knowing that there have been 3 recent incidents involving commercial aircraft on the runway, then the operating company behind BRS airport is now leaving itself wide open to serious litigation if there are any subsequent incidents.

The operating company at BRS airport has the old ethos of money before safety, we all know companies that have had that ethos, unfortunately they tend to end up on the front pages of our morning papers.
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