IFALPA Ban on Cathay Hiring
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IFALPA Ban on Cathay Hiring
All people who go to work for Cathay Pacific will be black listed from ever working for another IFALPA related airline. If you are going to fly the freighter to get a free type rating so you can get some experience to get job in the United States, think again. There won't be any decent airline to hire you. Cathay has screwed all of it's pilots including the unfortunate 49+3.
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....and to think that the CX guys had the chance to accept the better pay and conditions the management offered in the first place. And now they complain...as tho victimized. With strong labor action not possible under HK law, they really have no options left. Seems their so called high-paid advisor has droped the ball, big time.
Their only possible hope is for the large CX shareholders to lose confidence in the management. Not likely in the short term.
Their only possible hope is for the large CX shareholders to lose confidence in the management. Not likely in the short term.
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Gentlemen,
You obviously have been mislead by the media. If the pilots accepted the company's sugar coated poison, sure the pilots would have gotten a bit more money, but the pilots would have signed away their rostering protections. These protections are there to keep the company from overworking the pilots, which directly affects flight safety. By accepting the deal, the company would have the legal authority to change the rostering practices at anytime they wanted. The company desperately wants to get rid of the protection of having a certain number of days off after a long haul, med haul, or short haul trip. They want 3-man crews to operate ultra long haul flights.
Don't believe everything you read in the media. The management are sneaky lying weasles who will do whatever they can to increase their annual bonuses.
The management have been lying to the public since the dispute began. The truth will come out and the public will see that what I am telling all of you is the truth.
Cathay Pacific isn't the highest paying airline by a long shot. The seniority system means nothing other than when you will get an upgrade or go on a base. There is no bid line system. Your trips are given to you at random. There is no job security. 52 pilots will tell you that. One of those saved a 747-400 from a possible accident and landed the airplane safely in HKG during a VIP ceremony for the newly painted Spirit Of Hong Kong 747. What happened to contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedures. The management don't want to acknowledge them. The sacked pilots were told that they were fired for no apparent reason. How can you feel secure with a company that will stoop to these levels. They are all cowards.
Believe what you want. I wish you all success in your aviation careers.
You obviously have been mislead by the media. If the pilots accepted the company's sugar coated poison, sure the pilots would have gotten a bit more money, but the pilots would have signed away their rostering protections. These protections are there to keep the company from overworking the pilots, which directly affects flight safety. By accepting the deal, the company would have the legal authority to change the rostering practices at anytime they wanted. The company desperately wants to get rid of the protection of having a certain number of days off after a long haul, med haul, or short haul trip. They want 3-man crews to operate ultra long haul flights.
Don't believe everything you read in the media. The management are sneaky lying weasles who will do whatever they can to increase their annual bonuses.
The management have been lying to the public since the dispute began. The truth will come out and the public will see that what I am telling all of you is the truth.
Cathay Pacific isn't the highest paying airline by a long shot. The seniority system means nothing other than when you will get an upgrade or go on a base. There is no bid line system. Your trips are given to you at random. There is no job security. 52 pilots will tell you that. One of those saved a 747-400 from a possible accident and landed the airplane safely in HKG during a VIP ceremony for the newly painted Spirit Of Hong Kong 747. What happened to contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedures. The management don't want to acknowledge them. The sacked pilots were told that they were fired for no apparent reason. How can you feel secure with a company that will stoop to these levels. They are all cowards.
Believe what you want. I wish you all success in your aviation careers.
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Yes he got demoted. A 30% cut in pay to lose $1 million over the next 2 years. Therefore $500,000 per year, and that is a 30% pay cut. That means he made $1.6 million per year as a Captain. Cathay management have been telling the public that their Captains earn $3 million per year. Management just got caught in that lie.
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So Cathay may not be the best employer. But that leads us away from the original topic that pratcises as the ban that has now been imposed are not the finest, to say the least. That ban is not going to solve anything, but is probably going to cause a lot of grief. I think it is great to have unions to fight for our causes, but sometimes I doubt their fighting methods
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Don't believe all that you hear/read in the HK press. I've been in CX for 18 years and the first 8 were great. Then something changed and the aircrew became the 'enemy'. After a decade of diminishing conditions (My salary is 72% of what it was in 1992) and an employer making shedloads of money, we have simply had enough. We are united as a union and they can sack us for all we care if they will not come to the table and agree to a 21st century contract that addresses the needs of the shareholders AND the aircrew.
We are not the enemy - we're dying to help and make CX what it was - really.
However, when our esteemed leaders fire a young F/O who's just recovered from testicular cancer for being sick too much (sorry for 'no specific reason') they (we) draw line in the sand.
That, my dear accountants - at least as far as I'm concerned - is far enough.
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: jagman ]
We are not the enemy - we're dying to help and make CX what it was - really.
However, when our esteemed leaders fire a young F/O who's just recovered from testicular cancer for being sick too much (sorry for 'no specific reason') they (we) draw line in the sand.
That, my dear accountants - at least as far as I'm concerned - is far enough.
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: jagman ]
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The day IFALPA has any say in which Pilots an Airline may or may not employ - I will personaly kiss the President's @ss.
These clowns also made similiar threats when the '89's had their battle in Oz and guess what - there are "heroes" in various unions (I use the term loosely)down in Oz today that IFALPA embrace and recognise as bona-fide Pilot Unions.
A bunch of woozies!
These clowns also made similiar threats when the '89's had their battle in Oz and guess what - there are "heroes" in various unions (I use the term loosely)down in Oz today that IFALPA embrace and recognise as bona-fide Pilot Unions.
A bunch of woozies!
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Busdriver 25....rest assured myself, and several members of the former EAL MEC will investigate this "ban", and discredit it...we have yet too see any formal announcement from IFALPA regarding this matter, and your credentials to represent said parties are now being called into question on this forum.....so put your money where your mouth is...let's see the "ban" posted here for all to interpret....
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: Mapshift ]
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: Mapshift ]
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Please, take the CX job. If working conditions continue on their present course, in a few years, you'll wish you listened. I'm not saying that it isn't fun flying some of the most advanced jets, but management are trying to turn this, once great airline, into a second rate airline that nobody works for unless they can't get a job anywhere else. By all means, come and work for CX. It won't bother me in the least. I am just informing possible candidates of what they will be in store for if they venture out to HKG. Leave your home country and live a large portion of your life in a foreign country. CX use to pay a premium for this. Now they have B-scale pay (40% less than A-scale used to be). Now A-scale is 27%less than it used to be. They have another pay scale for freighter pilots. Now this new overtime offer they gave us only pays 1/2 of what our regular pay was--not time and a half, 1/2 pay. Well, I could ramble on for hours about this company. You make up your own mind...it's your future, chose it wisely.
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: busdriver25 ]
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: busdriver25 ]
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Mapshift,
No need to investigate, here's the ban in it's entirity. This message has been copied from the Fragrant Harbour forum.
"The following is the official IFALPA Recruitment Ban agianst CX. It can be viewed in it's entirety and on IFALPA letterhead at the HKAOA website public page, bbs.hkalpa.org
+ 44 1932 571711 ADMINISTRATIVE HEADQUARTERS TEL
FAX Interpilot House, Gogmore Lane, Chertsey, KT16 9AP, England +44 1932 570920
[email protected] www.globalpilot.org
Reference: IND/2 SCS/DR 02IND050
13th July 2001
To: All Member Associations
Dear Sirs,
Additional Request for Mutual Assistance by Hong Kong ALPA - HKAOA
The Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association, a Member Association of HKALPA, enacted their resolution
to institute a campaign of limited industrial action with effect from 3rd July 2001.
This was necessary in order to apply pressure to the management of Cathay Pacific Airways to return to the
negotiating table and, in good faith, to address the contractual issues that have now been outstanding for
more than two years.
Predictably, management reacted to the Association’s enactment of this resolution in a manner that Hong
Kong ALPA has come to expect over the last several years. In addition to the 3 pilots that they had already
sacked on 5th July, purportedly for disciplinary reasons, on 9th July they sacked 49 more pilots without prior
recourse to any of Hong Kong ALPA’s agreed disciplinary or grievance procedures and without giving any
reason for their action to the pilots concerned.
This is a clear tactic by management designed to intimidate the membership of the Association and a
deliberate attempt to escalate the situation into a full blown confrontation. Their action will be unsuccessful
in achieving their aims.
Therefore, the Association formally requests that, until further notice, the following Mutual Assistance
Policies be enacted in accordance with the I Manual in respect of Cathay Pacific Airways:
Request for Recruitment Ban (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.3)
Request for Denial of Training Facilities (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.4)
The previous Request for Mutual Assistance by Hong Kong ALPA 02IND042 dated 27th June 2001 is still
valid and requests that the following Mutual Assistance Policy continues to be implemented:
Request for Extra Flights and/or Increased Capacity (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.2 a)
Hong Kong ALPA will keep IFALPA and Member Associations informed of any further developments
concerning this dispute.
Thank you for your co-operation.
Yours faithfully,
Captain Dennis Dolan
Principal Vice-President
Professional Affairs
As you can see ladies and gentlemen their is an official IFALPA Recruitment Ban in place against CX. Anyone who decides to take a flying position with that company while this ban is in effect will NEVER be admitted into the HKAOA, HKALPA or any other IFALPA organisation. Make no mistake about it, there are serious consequences to be considered. There were one or two non-members included in that mass firing last month, I bet they wish they hadn't chosen that path."
As this is a professional pilots forum I would ask people to please ignore the individual "Truth Seekers Int'nl" who is obviously either a Cathay management plant or a sick and bitter person, definitely not a member of this profession. Any one who doubts this please go to the Fragrant Harbour forum and read his acidic response to a similar thread on the IFALPA recruitment ban there. His attitude towards the pilots who have lost their jobs is anything but professional.
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: HK1 ]
No need to investigate, here's the ban in it's entirity. This message has been copied from the Fragrant Harbour forum.
"The following is the official IFALPA Recruitment Ban agianst CX. It can be viewed in it's entirety and on IFALPA letterhead at the HKAOA website public page, bbs.hkalpa.org
+ 44 1932 571711 ADMINISTRATIVE HEADQUARTERS TEL
FAX Interpilot House, Gogmore Lane, Chertsey, KT16 9AP, England +44 1932 570920
[email protected] www.globalpilot.org
Reference: IND/2 SCS/DR 02IND050
13th July 2001
To: All Member Associations
Dear Sirs,
Additional Request for Mutual Assistance by Hong Kong ALPA - HKAOA
The Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association, a Member Association of HKALPA, enacted their resolution
to institute a campaign of limited industrial action with effect from 3rd July 2001.
This was necessary in order to apply pressure to the management of Cathay Pacific Airways to return to the
negotiating table and, in good faith, to address the contractual issues that have now been outstanding for
more than two years.
Predictably, management reacted to the Association’s enactment of this resolution in a manner that Hong
Kong ALPA has come to expect over the last several years. In addition to the 3 pilots that they had already
sacked on 5th July, purportedly for disciplinary reasons, on 9th July they sacked 49 more pilots without prior
recourse to any of Hong Kong ALPA’s agreed disciplinary or grievance procedures and without giving any
reason for their action to the pilots concerned.
This is a clear tactic by management designed to intimidate the membership of the Association and a
deliberate attempt to escalate the situation into a full blown confrontation. Their action will be unsuccessful
in achieving their aims.
Therefore, the Association formally requests that, until further notice, the following Mutual Assistance
Policies be enacted in accordance with the I Manual in respect of Cathay Pacific Airways:
Request for Recruitment Ban (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.3)
Request for Denial of Training Facilities (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.4)
The previous Request for Mutual Assistance by Hong Kong ALPA 02IND042 dated 27th June 2001 is still
valid and requests that the following Mutual Assistance Policy continues to be implemented:
Request for Extra Flights and/or Increased Capacity (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.2 a)
Hong Kong ALPA will keep IFALPA and Member Associations informed of any further developments
concerning this dispute.
Thank you for your co-operation.
Yours faithfully,
Captain Dennis Dolan
Principal Vice-President
Professional Affairs
As you can see ladies and gentlemen their is an official IFALPA Recruitment Ban in place against CX. Anyone who decides to take a flying position with that company while this ban is in effect will NEVER be admitted into the HKAOA, HKALPA or any other IFALPA organisation. Make no mistake about it, there are serious consequences to be considered. There were one or two non-members included in that mass firing last month, I bet they wish they hadn't chosen that path."
As this is a professional pilots forum I would ask people to please ignore the individual "Truth Seekers Int'nl" who is obviously either a Cathay management plant or a sick and bitter person, definitely not a member of this profession. Any one who doubts this please go to the Fragrant Harbour forum and read his acidic response to a similar thread on the IFALPA recruitment ban there. His attitude towards the pilots who have lost their jobs is anything but professional.
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: HK1 ]
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HK1 no offence,old chap,but I remember a similiar burst sent to the AFAP during the '89 Pilot's Dispute and I personaly regard it as Union brow beating and tripe. You see, my brother was a brand new B737 F/O when this started and I,together with my Dad, read a lot of literature during that time. It was amongst the letters from the PM,Abeles,Company solicitors etc and in the end it all amounted to SH!T.
Many of the AFAP office bearers went back and signed contracts. My brother lost his job,(he resigned actualy on the advice from the union) home,wife and a couple of mates who signed up.
I swore from that time on I would never be a union member and would look after myself in this industry. The AFAP have done little for us GA guys down here in Oz and I now have the opportunity to get out of this Company and work for an airline.
I am not the only one and we agree that we will not have any impact on the current situation as we will only be Second Officers.
I look forward to the 15 hour trips. It would take me longer to tell you what hell my brother was put through thanks to union madness.
You don't worry me HK1 nor does the AOA. I want the job I have tried so hard to get in the past 6 months and I have the chance now to secure it and no union or threats are going to stop me getting it.
Your comments about my thoughts on the guys that lost their jobs are that of a desperate man. Those guys have my deepest condolences, because they are going through what my brother went through 12 years ago.
You have a good one HK1.
Many of the AFAP office bearers went back and signed contracts. My brother lost his job,(he resigned actualy on the advice from the union) home,wife and a couple of mates who signed up.
I swore from that time on I would never be a union member and would look after myself in this industry. The AFAP have done little for us GA guys down here in Oz and I now have the opportunity to get out of this Company and work for an airline.
I am not the only one and we agree that we will not have any impact on the current situation as we will only be Second Officers.
I look forward to the 15 hour trips. It would take me longer to tell you what hell my brother was put through thanks to union madness.
You don't worry me HK1 nor does the AOA. I want the job I have tried so hard to get in the past 6 months and I have the chance now to secure it and no union or threats are going to stop me getting it.
Your comments about my thoughts on the guys that lost their jobs are that of a desperate man. Those guys have my deepest condolences, because they are going through what my brother went through 12 years ago.
You have a good one HK1.
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Truth Seekers Int'nl,
Enjoy the new Conditions of Service. Yes, you will be a second officer doing 15-hour ultra-long haul flights, but you won't have the 5-4-3 protection. The 5-4-3 rule would give you 5 days off between 2 ultra long-haul flights for much needed recovery time. Under your "wonderful" new contract, you might get 2 or 3 days off, or 1 day, if the comapny needs you for a flight. They are in desperate need of pilots. Oh, but you will get overtime at the rate of 1/2 of what you got before. The cabin crew are entitled to a higher overtime rate than the pilots. Well, enjoy your career with CX. It'll be your last!
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: busdriver25 ]
[ 14 August 2001: Message edited by: busdriver25 ]
Enjoy the new Conditions of Service. Yes, you will be a second officer doing 15-hour ultra-long haul flights, but you won't have the 5-4-3 protection. The 5-4-3 rule would give you 5 days off between 2 ultra long-haul flights for much needed recovery time. Under your "wonderful" new contract, you might get 2 or 3 days off, or 1 day, if the comapny needs you for a flight. They are in desperate need of pilots. Oh, but you will get overtime at the rate of 1/2 of what you got before. The cabin crew are entitled to a higher overtime rate than the pilots. Well, enjoy your career with CX. It'll be your last!
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: busdriver25 ]
[ 14 August 2001: Message edited by: busdriver25 ]
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Dear Friends,
I would very much appreciate you forwarding this e-mail from a friend of mine on
to any pilot you know with a request to pass it on to all pilots. I apologise that
some duplication will inevitably occur, but it would be nice if every pilot in the
world got this at least once.
Our dispute with Cathay Pacific continues. We are confident of prevailing, but any
assistance is welcomed. I am once again heavily involved on behalf of our Union and
currently I am the plaintiff in a Supreme Court action against CX over rostering.
Life is busy.
For those who are unaware, the ramifications of breaking an IFALPA recruitment ban
are quite severe. An individual would be ineligible for employment with a number
of airlines where the union has a say in hiring and would be ineligible for life
from being a member of any IFALPA affiliated pilot's union.
This ban is particularly important as CX is currently short at least 100 pilots and
soon to be short around 350.
Kind Regards
I would very much appreciate you forwarding this e-mail from a friend of mine on
to any pilot you know with a request to pass it on to all pilots. I apologise that
some duplication will inevitably occur, but it would be nice if every pilot in the
world got this at least once.
Our dispute with Cathay Pacific continues. We are confident of prevailing, but any
assistance is welcomed. I am once again heavily involved on behalf of our Union and
currently I am the plaintiff in a Supreme Court action against CX over rostering.
Life is busy.
For those who are unaware, the ramifications of breaking an IFALPA recruitment ban
are quite severe. An individual would be ineligible for employment with a number
of airlines where the union has a say in hiring and would be ineligible for life
from being a member of any IFALPA affiliated pilot's union.
This ban is particularly important as CX is currently short at least 100 pilots and
soon to be short around 350.
Kind Regards
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Any good ALPO member heard the same rhetoric (**** ) back in 1983 when the "brass ass" airline went on strike.....now...uh-oh they are all ALPO members....Herb, surely there's not a sane pilot out here who cannot see you "49ers" got shafted pure and simple, and we all want to see you get proper redress....but IFALPA's threat is pointless, and not likely to be respected by any rational pilot....were you a skipper? is a current cx pilot refusing to train for the command slot you, or anybody else lost? don't think so...fact i know thru a cripple-7 skipper that indeed upgrades are contuinuing as normal....a bit of hypocrisy no??
