Mid-air collision over Brasil
AlwaysOnFire
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WRC seem like it´s www.excelaire.com that is the owner of the Legacy.
From routinely operating in that airspace, radio communications on the southern end of the Manaus airspace can be problematic. Relays and frequency hopping are the norm. If these coordinates are accurate, the southbound aircraft would be told by Manaus to contact Brasilia at the boundry point. It's possible that the aircraft wouldn't be able to hear Manaus or Brasilia in this area. My memory is a little vague on the radar contact issue in this area, but I think it is less than optimal or non-existent. Over the last 10 years, radar coverage has improved dramatically in Brasil, but can be spotty in some isolated areas.
One more note on the remote location. From viewing at night, small, isolated shacks with lightbulbs are generally separated by 50-100 miles.
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WRC,
N600XL is most probably the Legacy involved.
According to latest reports, the wreckage has been found concentrated in one forest area 30Km from a small village.
A possible indication the crash was result of an uncontrolled dive?
N600XL is most probably the Legacy involved.
According to latest reports, the wreckage has been found concentrated in one forest area 30Km from a small village.
A possible indication the crash was result of an uncontrolled dive?
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The PT-GTD was a brand new airplane. It was the fourth 737-800 SFP (Short Field Performance) that was made exclusively on request of GOL to operate the São Paulo - Rio de Janeiro shuttles. More precisely to land in Santos Dumont (SBRJ) with the 189 pax..
It was delivered around the second week of September.
* Yes the Legacy involved is the N600XL
It was delivered around the second week of September.
* Yes the Legacy involved is the N600XL
Last edited by AeroBoero; 30th Sep 2006 at 16:20.
Is the altitude reference for TCAS and the transponder from which traffic radar display altitude the same?
If TCAS is told a false altitude it obviously won't do the right thing.
Is there a plausible single technical fault or setting error in either of the two aircraft which could give this outcome?
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Firstly may all who died R.I.P. on the GOL 737
I presume that all crew & pax on the Embraer survived the accident? The embraer crews testimony & FDR ,CVR will provide important info to investigators. Also the Embraer survived the accident so I imagine that yhe damaged wing will yield some clues due to crossmetal contamination etc upon impact as to actually where it struck the 737
/If TCAS is told a false altitude it obviously won't do the right thing.
Is there a plausible single technical fault or setting error in either of the two aircraft which could give this outcome?QUOTE]A buried comment in the story on msnbc says "Nevertheless, radars showed the Legacy and the Boeing were flying with an altitude difference of about 1,000 feet."
Is the altitude reference for TCAS and the transponder from which traffic radar display altitude the same?
I dont know much about Embraers but from memory the 737 NG has 2 fully independebt ADC's independently powered & individual sensors & probes feeding each ADC. The output from both ADC's is constantly monitored by its own internal BITE system & if any parameter is incorrect that ADC will become INOP automatically. Each Xpndr is fed from its own ADC & the TCAS processor( single unit) is fed from the output of each Xpndr. All outputs are on digital data buses with crosstalk & feedback possibilities all monitored by internal Bite in the LRU's.
I would presume that the TCAS system on the Embraer would be very similar as TCAS in all A/C's is a FAA approved stand alone system
I presume that all crew & pax on the Embraer survived the accident? The embraer crews testimony & FDR ,CVR will provide important info to investigators. Also the Embraer survived the accident so I imagine that yhe damaged wing will yield some clues due to crossmetal contamination etc upon impact as to actually where it struck the 737
/If TCAS is told a false altitude it obviously won't do the right thing.
Is there a plausible single technical fault or setting error in either of the two aircraft which could give this outcome?QUOTE]A buried comment in the story on msnbc says "Nevertheless, radars showed the Legacy and the Boeing were flying with an altitude difference of about 1,000 feet."
Is the altitude reference for TCAS and the transponder from which traffic radar display altitude the same?
I dont know much about Embraers but from memory the 737 NG has 2 fully independebt ADC's independently powered & individual sensors & probes feeding each ADC. The output from both ADC's is constantly monitored by its own internal BITE system & if any parameter is incorrect that ADC will become INOP automatically. Each Xpndr is fed from its own ADC & the TCAS processor( single unit) is fed from the output of each Xpndr. All outputs are on digital data buses with crosstalk & feedback possibilities all monitored by internal Bite in the LRU's.
I would presume that the TCAS system on the Embraer would be very similar as TCAS in all A/C's is a FAA approved stand alone system
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For the Legacy to sustain surviveable wing damage in a collision with a 737 it seems likely to be a collision with the vertical stabilizer on the 73.
Would the TCAS need to be operative on the EMB if it was a ferry?Any comments?
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I had a similar thought. I believe executive Embraers are delivered "green" to the US (FLL ?) for finishing. I don't know if this includes the avionics fit too - probably - but surely a minimum panel for delivery would include TCAS ? Definitive answer welcomed.
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Even if the Embraer did not have ACAS installed and serviceable, surely it had a mode C transponder at minimum. That would allow another ACAS equipped aircraft to respond to a threat. Now, it is possible to have ACAS deferred per the minimum equipment list. That would leave no protection whatsoever besides radar with SSR and/or position reporting. Pure speculation at this point to think that any of these situations existed. RIP
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All Embraer are outfitted in SJC (Sao Jose dos Campus) by Embraer. So the aircraft was fully furnished and even if would not, TCAS is not a system which will be installed during the completion, since it's a standard part on all large aircraft (over 5,7 tons). It seems like, that some of you guys have the thinking, that Bizjets are not equipped like an airliner, which isn't the fact at all.
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press releases from Embraer
source: http://www.embraer.com/english/content/home/
IMPORTANT INFORMATION
São José dos Campos, September 29, 2006 – Embraer was informed today of a mid-air collision involving a Legacy 600 aircraft which it manufactured, serial number 965, owned and operated by one of its clients.
According to unconfirmed reports, the collision occurred in the Serra do Cachimbo region, in the State of Pará, Northern Brazil. Following the collision, the Legacy 600 landed at the Cachimbo Air Force Base, with no injuries on board.
Embraer has offered to cooperate with aeronautical authorities in any way possible in the investigations of the cause of this accident. To that end, a team of Company technicians is preparing to leave for the region.
IMPORTANT INFORMATION #2
São José dos Campos, September 30, 2006 – Embraer is deeply moved by the accident involving the 737-800 aircraft built by Boeing, flown by Gol Linhas Aéreas, and a Legacy 600 executive jet, built by Embraer and owned by one of its customers, during a transfer flight abroad.
Embraer joins in heartfelt sympathy with the families of the victims and Gol Linhas Aéreas at this painful moment.
Once again, the Company reaffirms its full support to aeronautical authorities for the investigations leading to an explanation of the causes of the accident.
IMPORTANT INFORMATION
São José dos Campos, September 29, 2006 – Embraer was informed today of a mid-air collision involving a Legacy 600 aircraft which it manufactured, serial number 965, owned and operated by one of its clients.
According to unconfirmed reports, the collision occurred in the Serra do Cachimbo region, in the State of Pará, Northern Brazil. Following the collision, the Legacy 600 landed at the Cachimbo Air Force Base, with no injuries on board.
Embraer has offered to cooperate with aeronautical authorities in any way possible in the investigations of the cause of this accident. To that end, a team of Company technicians is preparing to leave for the region.
IMPORTANT INFORMATION #2
São José dos Campos, September 30, 2006 – Embraer is deeply moved by the accident involving the 737-800 aircraft built by Boeing, flown by Gol Linhas Aéreas, and a Legacy 600 executive jet, built by Embraer and owned by one of its customers, during a transfer flight abroad.
Embraer joins in heartfelt sympathy with the families of the victims and Gol Linhas Aéreas at this painful moment.
Once again, the Company reaffirms its full support to aeronautical authorities for the investigations leading to an explanation of the causes of the accident.
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TCAS wiring
Some years back I read a WSJ article about an TCAS issued alert over Asia. The alert came late and the planes did not have time to respond fully. Turns out it was a good thing. One of the units had a miswired pin. The wires were reversed and this caused the reverse instructions of the desired one to be issued. Seem to remember the article mentioned Rockwell as the supplier of the offending unit.
Could just be a simple equipment malfunction making itself known at a really bad time.
20driver
Could just be a simple equipment malfunction making itself known at a really bad time.
20driver
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20d... Involved a BA -400, and I'd spoken to one of the crew. As you say, the other aircraft (cannot remember airline involved) had a Alt/ADC => TCAS wiring / logic fault so reporting wrong FL. Was v frightening, as you can imagine, since the "conflict resolution" very nearly actually caused 2 aircraft well separated to collide.
I cannot remember his words, but it was pure fortune, maybe some lateral separation (but very little), and maybe slightly slow reactions on the part of the "other" aircraft, as well as becoming VMC that "saved" the day. Exemplary following of SOPs by both crews could have led to a major (2 x widebody) collision.
However, it was investigated, was sometime ago, and one would hope such an "own goal" has been designed out (as suggested earlier with the checking systems).
I always find it ironic that the light aircraft I fly show on the panel the FL beng pushed out by Mode C.... no airliner I have flown does
I cannot remember his words, but it was pure fortune, maybe some lateral separation (but very little), and maybe slightly slow reactions on the part of the "other" aircraft, as well as becoming VMC that "saved" the day. Exemplary following of SOPs by both crews could have led to a major (2 x widebody) collision.
However, it was investigated, was sometime ago, and one would hope such an "own goal" has been designed out (as suggested earlier with the checking systems).
I always find it ironic that the light aircraft I fly show on the panel the FL beng pushed out by Mode C.... no airliner I have flown does
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All Embraer are outfitted in SJC (Sao Jose dos Campus) by Embraer. So the aircraft was fully furnished and even if would not, TCAS is not a system which will be installed during the completion, since it's a standard part on all large aircraft (over 5,7 tons). It seems like, that some of you guys have the thinking, that Bizjets are not equipped like an airliner, which isn't the fact at all.
A midair is probably the second most frightening prospect (fire is no. 1) we face. How two a/c ostensibly under positive control and with all modern systems can still run into each other simply boggles my mind. There has to be more to it. Please.
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Nigel and 20d : the Gillham box error that caused the incident you are ref to, has been identified and corrected in the meantime and is very unlikely to happen again , and definitively not with modern avionics , as the 2 a/c involved were brand new.
Even if one ACAS unit did not function , was u/s , not fitted, etc.. its SSR +mode C will be enough to activate the other unit and prevent the collision.
So the cause , if indeed there were a collision between those 2, lay probably elsewhere.
If ,as one report indicated, the a/c were level and on RVSM, and if the Go was above the Legacy, many scenari can be drawn. Sudden Decompression is one that come to mind.
Only the FDR/CVR of the 2 will draw some light.
Even if one ACAS unit did not function , was u/s , not fitted, etc.. its SSR +mode C will be enough to activate the other unit and prevent the collision.
So the cause , if indeed there were a collision between those 2, lay probably elsewhere.
If ,as one report indicated, the a/c were level and on RVSM, and if the Go was above the Legacy, many scenari can be drawn. Sudden Decompression is one that come to mind.
Only the FDR/CVR of the 2 will draw some light.
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I have seen airplanes visually prior to getting any indication on TCAS. HOW/WHY? Possible transponder problems, possible blanking of tranponder antenna by wing or other part of plane, indeed some cargo planes only have transponder antenna on bottom, I followed a cargo DC10 for 3 minutes with nothing on TCAS...this may have changed since then as even cargo planes are getting better equipment.
one post indicating the biz jet wing hitting a vital surface is a thought...perhaps too if the biz jet wing hit the canopy/cockpit of the boeing, killing both boeing pilots, add decompression, other failures including an autopilot disengagement and bang.
I didn't see altitudes published if anyone has them...and if there was a collision and RVSM is a component of the cause, maybe we should go back to 2000' at higher altitudes for seperation.
sad crash
jon
one post indicating the biz jet wing hitting a vital surface is a thought...perhaps too if the biz jet wing hit the canopy/cockpit of the boeing, killing both boeing pilots, add decompression, other failures including an autopilot disengagement and bang.
I didn't see altitudes published if anyone has them...and if there was a collision and RVSM is a component of the cause, maybe we should go back to 2000' at higher altitudes for seperation.
sad crash
jon