Lebanese Civil Aircraft Downed By Missile?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Guest
Posts: n/a
Looks like a suicide mission alright, just enough training to get there. Took off without his instructors permission, ignored very obvious interceptions by the Israelis. Anniversary of the Israeli pullout.
It all fits. Any protestations that he was a lost inexperienced pilot might be believable if it wasn't for the fact that he was flying along a coastline.
If he hadn't been shot down he no doubt would have dived into an appropriate target.
Quite a memorable first solo, all in all.
You know we pilots have and excellent way of committing suicide anytime we like. Although I'm find it hard to be depressed when I'm flying.
It all fits. Any protestations that he was a lost inexperienced pilot might be believable if it wasn't for the fact that he was flying along a coastline.
If he hadn't been shot down he no doubt would have dived into an appropriate target.
Quite a memorable first solo, all in all.
You know we pilots have and excellent way of committing suicide anytime we like. Although I'm find it hard to be depressed when I'm flying.
Guest
Posts: n/a
As much as I regrett any loss of life, particularly by violent means, and sympathise with the Palestinian cause, I think this is a clear example of why every student pilot has to pass his/her air law exam before going solo.
In any case, and without knowing the details (I doubt anybody will ever do), let's assume he was lost, let's assume he didn't know the interception procedures, still, didn't he have a radio to communicate on 121.5? Too many mistakes in such a "hot" area is a sure recipe for death.
My condolences to his family and friends.
In any case, and without knowing the details (I doubt anybody will ever do), let's assume he was lost, let's assume he didn't know the interception procedures, still, didn't he have a radio to communicate on 121.5? Too many mistakes in such a "hot" area is a sure recipe for death.
My condolences to his family and friends.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think it was a good move by Israelis (who can debate that?)regardless of the pilots intentions. Unfortunately you cant afford to be lost in that area and if indeed he was lost why didnt he fly circles or out to sea upon seeing an Israeli border force.
Guest
Posts: n/a
This incident is very damaging to Civil Aviation in the area, as the possibility of opening new airways over Lebanon to cut flying times from Europe to the Gulf might be delayed.
Heard the warnings given to the pilot on 121.5 about 200NM from the Beirut, as it is customary for all aircraft flying in the area to maintain a listening watch. He was told to identify himself about 4 times then that he was told that he was going to be shut down about 4 times.
The fact that Hezbollah knew the name of the pilot is not a big deal.It was all over the net and TV minutes after the incident, as the Lebanese authorities were tracking the flight path for a while since it took-off from Beirut.
The pilot Took-off without any clearence and was seen on Beirut Radar leaving to the south without answering on his radio any warnings from Beirut Control before beeing intersepted.Proves he had intent but the suicide theory is still unproven as the israelis would have found exlosives in the wreckage.
Heard the warnings given to the pilot on 121.5 about 200NM from the Beirut, as it is customary for all aircraft flying in the area to maintain a listening watch. He was told to identify himself about 4 times then that he was told that he was going to be shut down about 4 times.
The fact that Hezbollah knew the name of the pilot is not a big deal.It was all over the net and TV minutes after the incident, as the Lebanese authorities were tracking the flight path for a while since it took-off from Beirut.
The pilot Took-off without any clearence and was seen on Beirut Radar leaving to the south without answering on his radio any warnings from Beirut Control before beeing intersepted.Proves he had intent but the suicide theory is still unproven as the israelis would have found exlosives in the wreckage.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Bigjets & Joaquin.
He was not lost. You can not get lost over there. The Israeli coast line is very different to the Lebanese. He was shot down some 35-40km from Tel Aviv or about 130km from the Lebanese/Israeli border.
[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 24 May 2001).]
He was not lost. You can not get lost over there. The Israeli coast line is very different to the Lebanese. He was shot down some 35-40km from Tel Aviv or about 130km from the Lebanese/Israeli border.
[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 24 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
You don't need explosives to do damage with an aircraft, a VNE dive will do the job nicely.
It set a precedent though, look how far he got. What if he had explosives on board? I suspect, given the palestine propensity for suicide bombings, that this might be repeated for real one day. Buy, steal or hijack an aircraft, fill it with just enough explosives and a barely trained pilot wearing a bandanna and aim at the Knesset, GPS is all you need.
What's the Arabic for Divine Wind, Anyone?
It set a precedent though, look how far he got. What if he had explosives on board? I suspect, given the palestine propensity for suicide bombings, that this might be repeated for real one day. Buy, steal or hijack an aircraft, fill it with just enough explosives and a barely trained pilot wearing a bandanna and aim at the Knesset, GPS is all you need.
What's the Arabic for Divine Wind, Anyone?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Oh Steepclimb, so dramatic- a "VNE" dive- very technical.Would it really have to be "VNE"??? Have you ever seen any sort of substantial building hit by a light aircraft(not containing explosives)-there is not much left of the aircraft, I assure you.
Now going back to attacks on the Knesset, or any other "material" targets-I think you will find Hezbollah and the rest not too interested in this form of attack, when they have (in their eyes) been so sucessful with recent lone suicide bomber attacks.Their strategy, had you been watching events close enough, was in effect taking life for life.This has surely got the Israelies worried.
Not that I condone this type of attack, however every day unarmed Palestinians(sorry, armed with stones!) are being killed and is very often never reported in the media-I wonder why?
The overkill policy adopted by Israel, including the use of F-16's and tanks may be popular for home consumption, but will never be a solution to their problems and only earns the condemnation of world opinion.
As for Sharon, the man is a warmonger who will only inflame and aggravate the situation.A negotiated settelement under Senator Mitchell is the only (distant)hope of a solution and the Palestinians have declared their willingness to co-operate with Mitchell
Will Sharon?-I doubt it.
Now going back to attacks on the Knesset, or any other "material" targets-I think you will find Hezbollah and the rest not too interested in this form of attack, when they have (in their eyes) been so sucessful with recent lone suicide bomber attacks.Their strategy, had you been watching events close enough, was in effect taking life for life.This has surely got the Israelies worried.
Not that I condone this type of attack, however every day unarmed Palestinians(sorry, armed with stones!) are being killed and is very often never reported in the media-I wonder why?
The overkill policy adopted by Israel, including the use of F-16's and tanks may be popular for home consumption, but will never be a solution to their problems and only earns the condemnation of world opinion.
As for Sharon, the man is a warmonger who will only inflame and aggravate the situation.A negotiated settelement under Senator Mitchell is the only (distant)hope of a solution and the Palestinians have declared their willingness to co-operate with Mitchell
Will Sharon?-I doubt it.
Guest
Posts: n/a
mach 78, i agree the Mitchell plan is the only way out. I refuse to take sides in this however I have yet to see an Isreali walk into a shopping mall with a device strapped to his chest and push the button? In the end someone has to stop the killing ... who has the guts to be the first to do such?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mach78 - methinks you have an axe to grind. I too do not like much of what I see on both sides but frankly the Israelis had no choice. To all but the most generous of obsevers that bloke was 99.9% a would-be suicide merchant. In this case there was simply no choice but to shoot him down.
It does not solve the intractable problems of the Middle East but in this case the Israelis got it right.
It does not solve the intractable problems of the Middle East but in this case the Israelis got it right.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Latest report as published by the Beirut "Daily Star":
Pilot struck by Israel not a terrorist but 'impulsive' student Friday, May 25, 2001 (Agencies)
Nicolian was 'impulsive'
Stephen Nicolian, 43, the Lebanese-Armenian who was shot down by the Israeli airforce Thursday after taking off from Beirut Airport, was reportedly not a terrorist on a suicide mission but, according to press reports, a wealthy student pilot with impulsive behavior that cost him his life and almost sparked a war in the region.
Interior Minister Elias Murr, who rushed to Beirut International Airport once the news of the downed civilian plane hit the media, made clear Nicolian was not on a terrorist mission and attributed the incident to the pilot’s “psychological problems.”
“All indications show that this was not a suicide mission,” Murr said. “No explosives or documents were found in the plane…. Calling this a military operation misrepresents the event. It must be kept in perspective.”
OPTIONS
Murr said Nicolian had “only flown five or six hours” at flying schools in Beirut, and that most of his training, some 35 hours, was done in Cyprus.
“He [Nicolian] lived some time abroad and might have been contacted by Israeli or other intelligence services who involved him in this action,” Murr claimed. “We are still gathering information about him from foreign embassies.”
Nicolian’s flight instructor in Cyprus, where Nicolian attended flight school from February to mid-March this year, supported Murr's comments on the pilot's disruptive personality and the unliklihood that he was involved in a suicide mission. John Oratis described his student as a troublesome “rich boy with a lot of money who wanted to fly.”
“He was a very difficult student. Not a dangerous flyer, but he had no respect for authority,” said Oratis in Cyprus. “Although it wasn’t in his nature to go on a suicide mission, it wouldn’t surprise me if he was dared.”
Oratis said Nicolian had studied basic flight training with him in Larnaca "because he had some problems with flying clubs in Lebanon. He wanted to prove to them that he could do it and I guess he did."
Oratis added Nicolian had once been stopped at Larnaca airport for getting too close to a landing airplane. "He was a very difficult student and over-exuberant about flying.”
Shot down by Israel
Nicolian took off Thursday morning from Beirut’s Airport without authorization leaving his instructor on the tarmac. Beirut’s control tower attempted unsuccessfully to contact him after takeoff, as civilian air traffic is forbidden to fly south of Jiyye, midway between Beirut and Sidon. The airport radar continued to track the plane’s flight until it crossed over to Israel.
The Israeli Army, which tracked the plane from Beirut by radar, said warplanes and helicopters intercepted the Cessna as it crossed the border.
“Air force planes approached [the aircraft] after it crossed the international border,” air force commander Dan Halutz said. “I emphasize this. After it crossed the border, not one meter before that.”
Remains of the downed Cessna
But witnesses, including Unifil peacekeepers, said that Israeli warplanes were spotted circling the light aircraft as it flew over Tyre, 20 kilometers north of the border.
The Cessna weaved a zigzag course across the sea and coast, passing over Unifil headquarters in Naqoura and crossing the border into Israel. The plane circled for several minutes over Nahariye, the first Israeli town on the coast south of the frontier, sparking panic among residents, including families of civilian Unifil employees, who headed for bomb shelters.
Israeli army spokesman Brigadier General Ron Kitrey said they fired warning shots and tried to contact the pilot through internationally recognized signals and using emergency frequencies but they claimed he ignored all contact.
The plane then flew over Haifa, before being blasted out of the air with a burst of machine-gun fire from a helicopter.
It remains unclear why the Israelis allowed Nicolian to venture so far into Israel, crossing a town and a city, before shooting his plane down.
With tensions at breaking point along the Lebanon-Israel border on the first anniversary of Israel’s troop withdrawal, Nicolian’s motive for the flight left the Lebanese and Israeli authorities completely baffled.
Pilot struck by Israel not a terrorist but 'impulsive' student Friday, May 25, 2001 (Agencies)
Nicolian was 'impulsive'
Stephen Nicolian, 43, the Lebanese-Armenian who was shot down by the Israeli airforce Thursday after taking off from Beirut Airport, was reportedly not a terrorist on a suicide mission but, according to press reports, a wealthy student pilot with impulsive behavior that cost him his life and almost sparked a war in the region.
Interior Minister Elias Murr, who rushed to Beirut International Airport once the news of the downed civilian plane hit the media, made clear Nicolian was not on a terrorist mission and attributed the incident to the pilot’s “psychological problems.”
“All indications show that this was not a suicide mission,” Murr said. “No explosives or documents were found in the plane…. Calling this a military operation misrepresents the event. It must be kept in perspective.”
OPTIONS
Murr said Nicolian had “only flown five or six hours” at flying schools in Beirut, and that most of his training, some 35 hours, was done in Cyprus.
“He [Nicolian] lived some time abroad and might have been contacted by Israeli or other intelligence services who involved him in this action,” Murr claimed. “We are still gathering information about him from foreign embassies.”
Nicolian’s flight instructor in Cyprus, where Nicolian attended flight school from February to mid-March this year, supported Murr's comments on the pilot's disruptive personality and the unliklihood that he was involved in a suicide mission. John Oratis described his student as a troublesome “rich boy with a lot of money who wanted to fly.”
“He was a very difficult student. Not a dangerous flyer, but he had no respect for authority,” said Oratis in Cyprus. “Although it wasn’t in his nature to go on a suicide mission, it wouldn’t surprise me if he was dared.”
Oratis said Nicolian had studied basic flight training with him in Larnaca "because he had some problems with flying clubs in Lebanon. He wanted to prove to them that he could do it and I guess he did."
Oratis added Nicolian had once been stopped at Larnaca airport for getting too close to a landing airplane. "He was a very difficult student and over-exuberant about flying.”
Shot down by Israel
Nicolian took off Thursday morning from Beirut’s Airport without authorization leaving his instructor on the tarmac. Beirut’s control tower attempted unsuccessfully to contact him after takeoff, as civilian air traffic is forbidden to fly south of Jiyye, midway between Beirut and Sidon. The airport radar continued to track the plane’s flight until it crossed over to Israel.
The Israeli Army, which tracked the plane from Beirut by radar, said warplanes and helicopters intercepted the Cessna as it crossed the border.
“Air force planes approached [the aircraft] after it crossed the international border,” air force commander Dan Halutz said. “I emphasize this. After it crossed the border, not one meter before that.”
Remains of the downed Cessna
But witnesses, including Unifil peacekeepers, said that Israeli warplanes were spotted circling the light aircraft as it flew over Tyre, 20 kilometers north of the border.
The Cessna weaved a zigzag course across the sea and coast, passing over Unifil headquarters in Naqoura and crossing the border into Israel. The plane circled for several minutes over Nahariye, the first Israeli town on the coast south of the frontier, sparking panic among residents, including families of civilian Unifil employees, who headed for bomb shelters.
Israeli army spokesman Brigadier General Ron Kitrey said they fired warning shots and tried to contact the pilot through internationally recognized signals and using emergency frequencies but they claimed he ignored all contact.
The plane then flew over Haifa, before being blasted out of the air with a burst of machine-gun fire from a helicopter.
It remains unclear why the Israelis allowed Nicolian to venture so far into Israel, crossing a town and a city, before shooting his plane down.
With tensions at breaking point along the Lebanon-Israel border on the first anniversary of Israel’s troop withdrawal, Nicolian’s motive for the flight left the Lebanese and Israeli authorities completely baffled.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The Israeli's may have got it right this time. I would say with all that has gone on recently they have made the best decision, but using F-16's to protect yourself against stone throwers does not justify any Israeli cause.
For those people who refuse to take sides. For goodness sake! it is not a matter of taking sides. It is prudent of you to admit that Israel has transgressed every legal barrier in their ludicrous attempt to claim some land. This is the issue, you can think about peace once this has been settled. As basic and easy as it may sound it happens everywhere on Earth: IRA, ETA, Kashmir, Punjab / Indian dispute, Indonesia.
Indeed certain Palestinians go about it in the wrong way; taking the name of God in suicide attacks. For anyone who thinks suicide is a customary thing in Islam – I have news for you, IT’S NOT!!! – it’s a major sin and that’s what happens to people when they become desperate – A calamity you’ve been lucky enough not to experience in your lifetime.
What I can’t quite understand is the lack of involvement from the rest of the world.
[This message has been edited by G-OODY (edited 25 May 2001).]
For those people who refuse to take sides. For goodness sake! it is not a matter of taking sides. It is prudent of you to admit that Israel has transgressed every legal barrier in their ludicrous attempt to claim some land. This is the issue, you can think about peace once this has been settled. As basic and easy as it may sound it happens everywhere on Earth: IRA, ETA, Kashmir, Punjab / Indian dispute, Indonesia.
Indeed certain Palestinians go about it in the wrong way; taking the name of God in suicide attacks. For anyone who thinks suicide is a customary thing in Islam – I have news for you, IT’S NOT!!! – it’s a major sin and that’s what happens to people when they become desperate – A calamity you’ve been lucky enough not to experience in your lifetime.
What I can’t quite understand is the lack of involvement from the rest of the world.
[This message has been edited by G-OODY (edited 25 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
G-OODY,
You are right to say that suicide is forbidden in Islam, but its only western media who coined the phase “suicide bombers”, these “freedom fighters” firmly believe that they are martyrs dying for Islam and will therefore be richly rewarded in heaven.
Now what exactly do you want the rest of the world to do?
Mutt
You are right to say that suicide is forbidden in Islam, but its only western media who coined the phase “suicide bombers”, these “freedom fighters” firmly believe that they are martyrs dying for Islam and will therefore be richly rewarded in heaven.
Now what exactly do you want the rest of the world to do?
Mutt
Guest
Posts: n/a
mutt,
I agree, but they are also dying for their rights and doesn't anyone who strives against a tyrant or an opressor deserve a heavenly reward, not just in the name of religion.
...personally? theres not much they can/will do, not until they dust the cabinets with a fine duster. 
I agree, but they are also dying for their rights and doesn't anyone who strives against a tyrant or an opressor deserve a heavenly reward, not just in the name of religion.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Now what exactly do you want the rest of the world to do? </font>
Guest
Posts: n/a
G-OODY
I almost completely agree with you, but being this an aviation forum, I think the political discusion is a bit out of place.
Back to the matter, I read: “He was a very difficult student. Not a dangerous flyer, but he had no respect for authority,” said Oratis [his instructor] in Cyprus."
PLEASE, Cyprus Authorities, revoke this instructor's QFI license, NOW!!!!!!
I almost completely agree with you, but being this an aviation forum, I think the political discusion is a bit out of place.
Back to the matter, I read: “He was a very difficult student. Not a dangerous flyer, but he had no respect for authority,” said Oratis [his instructor] in Cyprus."
PLEASE, Cyprus Authorities, revoke this instructor's QFI license, NOW!!!!!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just a bit of morbid curiosity, straying away from all right/wrong/moral judgements. The report someone's posted suggested the Cessna was brought down my machine gun fire from a Helecopter. I guess this makes sense given the speed of the Cessna and, err, cost effectiveness - I wonder who decided whether to shoot the thing down with (presumably) an Army(?) Cobra or let the Air Force test fire one of their Sidewinders. It sounds like a joint operation.
