Nurse fury at Ryanair as woman dies on flight from Italy
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Ryanair bashing, plain and simple, from some of the posts here.
Lets review.
RYR have the IAA required emergency medical kit required.
The kit was readily available, yet the nurse who attended the patient couldn't find the latex gloves.
One wonders, why not?
Now, it would seem to me that RYR did all they could under the circumstances, including diverting as required.
Quite frankly, if airlines are required to carry on board medical equipment deemed suitable by a some folks, I would expect there would be no room for the passengers.
Lets face facts here.
This young lady could just as well have passed away either before or after the flight.
It will be interesting to find out the actual cause of death, if ever determined.
I seriously doubt that the flight was on RYR had anything to do with it.
Clearly however, the RYR bashers will not be deterred.
A bit like a broken record...on and on.
Lets review.
RYR have the IAA required emergency medical kit required.
The kit was readily available, yet the nurse who attended the patient couldn't find the latex gloves.
One wonders, why not?
Now, it would seem to me that RYR did all they could under the circumstances, including diverting as required.
Quite frankly, if airlines are required to carry on board medical equipment deemed suitable by a some folks, I would expect there would be no room for the passengers.
Lets face facts here.
This young lady could just as well have passed away either before or after the flight.
It will be interesting to find out the actual cause of death, if ever determined.
I seriously doubt that the flight was on RYR had anything to do with it.
Clearly however, the RYR bashers will not be deterred.
A bit like a broken record...on and on.
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You are a professional captain and quite rightly if I, as a PPL, commented on your flight deck you would tell me in no uncertain terms to butt out.
However, you have the termerity to pass a negative comment on a nurse who, despite opening herself to legal action and having no professional obligation, did her best to help the unfortunate young woman for no financial consideration. And also, she did it without protective equipment, for whatever reason.
That, as they say where I came from, is putting your money where your mouth is
You are a professional captain and quite rightly if I, as a PPL, commented on your flight deck you would tell me in no uncertain terms to butt out.
However, you have the termerity to pass a negative comment on a nurse who, despite opening herself to legal action and having no professional obligation, did her best to help the unfortunate young woman for no financial consideration. And also, she did it without protective equipment, for whatever reason.
That, as they say where I came from, is putting your money where your mouth is
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Upgrade the onboard medical kits on short haul aircraft
It appears the unfortunate girl died of a pulmonary embolism. Listening to the interview today a simple resuscitation tube that only costs a few cents but which no short haul airline is required to carry in their kit was on the medical practitioners wish list. It could have happened on any short haul airline in Europe so surely the emphasis must be on upgrading these medical kits they carry onboard and concentrate on suitable training of cabin crew. The flight was fortunate to have a surgeon, nurse and trauma nurse on board. It must have be awful for all involved to loose someone.
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I had a quick look at BA's "Medical care in the air" info and it's worth reading .....
http://www.britishairways.com/travel...e/public/en_gb
hit the PDF download link in the "Aircraft medical kits" section to see just how comprehensive the BA kit is ....
Perhaps a guide for mandatory regulations by the U.K. and Irish Airline Authorities? ....
http://www.britishairways.com/travel...e/public/en_gb
hit the PDF download link in the "Aircraft medical kits" section to see just how comprehensive the BA kit is ....
Perhaps a guide for mandatory regulations by the U.K. and Irish Airline Authorities? ....
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I can just picture it now. Fellow on his back in the middle of the street, not breathing. Fifty people standing around looking at one another, saying: "Sorry, can't try saving his life, I don't have a rubber glove on me."
Disgusting.
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Passing the buck
Apparently, the lesson is that if you can't be successful, you shouldn't try.
I doubt very much anybody knew that the chances of success were slim when they began CPR (I've always been trained to try regardless), but it seems here that people are using the clarity of hind sight to justify the lack of medical equipment and an ill-prepared crew. Heaven forbid if they even consider an AED on board.
Ryanair spokesperson: "As the cause of death of this passenger has yet to be confirmed, it is pointless to speculate whether any piece of medical equipment could or would have averted this tragedy. All of our thoughts and prayers remain with the friends and family of the deceased."
norunway: Not to stray from the point the young woman who died on this flight could not have been saved even if she had of been traveling on a CAA registered airplane so why don't you have a think about that
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The following radio programme clips are very illuminating.
From RTE News at One (listen to this one first):
http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0926/ryanair.html
(see audio clip at bottom of page).
From the Joe Duffy Show on RTE Radio 1:
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/
Click on Tuesday's show, it starts after about a minute. It's long, but worth listening to MOL squirm
as he, in case you had any doubt, demonstrates his total lack of interest in pax.
He appears at about 45mins in and attempts to backtrack on his earlier comments. He then
rather blots his copybook by reducing the girl to a statistic that wasn't worth saving.
Then listen to Joe treat him to a taste of his own medicine in interview technique.
He also says he will lobby the IAA for more equipment on board (rather omitting that he
doesn't need IAA permission to add extra equipment).
Essentially its MOL's word versus the doctor, nurse and pax. Obviously the laters
honesty is unknown. However they have no reason to lie and Ducksy's every
word (on any subject) is a usually a pathological lie, so who you gonna
believe?
Once again the mind boggles as to why the IAA will no doubt look the other way.
It's outrageous. As also in MOL's absolute denial of the evidence of at least 5 pax and his
refusal to countenance an investigation. A disgusting disregard for the value of human life.
Sounds like a cover-up.
From RTE News at One (listen to this one first):
http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0926/ryanair.html
(see audio clip at bottom of page).
From the Joe Duffy Show on RTE Radio 1:
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/
Click on Tuesday's show, it starts after about a minute. It's long, but worth listening to MOL squirm
as he, in case you had any doubt, demonstrates his total lack of interest in pax.
He appears at about 45mins in and attempts to backtrack on his earlier comments. He then
rather blots his copybook by reducing the girl to a statistic that wasn't worth saving.
Then listen to Joe treat him to a taste of his own medicine in interview technique.
He also says he will lobby the IAA for more equipment on board (rather omitting that he
doesn't need IAA permission to add extra equipment).
Essentially its MOL's word versus the doctor, nurse and pax. Obviously the laters
honesty is unknown. However they have no reason to lie and Ducksy's every
word (on any subject) is a usually a pathological lie, so who you gonna
believe?
Once again the mind boggles as to why the IAA will no doubt look the other way.
It's outrageous. As also in MOL's absolute denial of the evidence of at least 5 pax and his
refusal to countenance an investigation. A disgusting disregard for the value of human life.
Sounds like a cover-up.
As a former ambulance crew who instructs lifesaving in my spare time, I can honestly say that giving a stranger mouth to mouth without a mouth shield (e.g. Resusci-aid) isn't particularly pleasant. Not actually required for effective resus, granted, and it wouldn't stop me giving assistance but given the choice I think most people would use one. Don't forget, there are plenty of bacterial & viral infections you can quite easily contract from mouth-to-mouth contact ! I have to say that I am surprised that Ryanar were unable to provide these items - I carry a pretty decent FA kit in my car - there must be room enough on an a/c. And a member of cabin crew saying they're "only trained to take a pulse"? That can't be true, surely? Taking of pulses hasn't been part of resus for ages!
Congrats to the nurses for keeping up the CPR for 40 mins, they must have been knackered. Unfortunately under the circumstances it seems that nothing short of neurosurgery would have made any difference.
Congrats to the nurses for keeping up the CPR for 40 mins, they must have been knackered. Unfortunately under the circumstances it seems that nothing short of neurosurgery would have made any difference.
How about impounding some of MOLs aircraft in the UK under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 sections 2 & 3 in that ryr have not provided for the health safety and welfare of their staff and those not in their employ ie passengers. The use of barrier protection is seen as best practice when performing CPR.
Long haul flights do provide defibrillators under the control of the flight crew and having seen a demonstration by a Virgin Atlantic team, their skills left a few professional medical staff in awe, me one of them. There are many airlines do have a telemedicine facility to obtain advice and indemnity insurance when their advice is followed.
Training and repeated training can only do some much, the first cardiac arrest that you attend always leaves a lasting impression, and if you fail, as high percentage do, you always have a feeling could I or we as a team, have done more ?? having been to many cardiac arrests you still have that feeling.
Congratulations to the nurses and doctor who stepped forward, many today would have had second or even third thoughts about doing so!!
The number of in flights deaths per annum is remarkably low considering the diversity of passengers flown each day. My fear is that a passenger has a tropical disease in the incubation phase and goes on a long haul flight, transiting a couple of main hubs, the senario does not bear thinking about. This did happen a couple of years ago in Berlin fortunately it was only Yellow Fever.
Long haul flights do provide defibrillators under the control of the flight crew and having seen a demonstration by a Virgin Atlantic team, their skills left a few professional medical staff in awe, me one of them. There are many airlines do have a telemedicine facility to obtain advice and indemnity insurance when their advice is followed.
Training and repeated training can only do some much, the first cardiac arrest that you attend always leaves a lasting impression, and if you fail, as high percentage do, you always have a feeling could I or we as a team, have done more ?? having been to many cardiac arrests you still have that feeling.
Congratulations to the nurses and doctor who stepped forward, many today would have had second or even third thoughts about doing so!!
The number of in flights deaths per annum is remarkably low considering the diversity of passengers flown each day. My fear is that a passenger has a tropical disease in the incubation phase and goes on a long haul flight, transiting a couple of main hubs, the senario does not bear thinking about. This did happen a couple of years ago in Berlin fortunately it was only Yellow Fever.
Last edited by air pig; 26th Sep 2006 at 19:45.
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Listen to that interview, most importantly, listen to the Doctor who was onboard and his version of events. This is not a Ryanair issue in terms of equipment carried, he says it himself.
What is the issue here is the way MOL spoke about the nurses.
What is the issue here is the way MOL spoke about the nurses.
More than just an ATCO
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I wonder about the standard of help MOL hoimself would now get should he be unfortunate enough to end up in hospital. I rather think "circling the drain" or "NWS" might be wtritten on his notes
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Yep, Carmoisine, seems to be accurate, as far as it goes.
Clearly, folks have a choice.
Fly Ryanair...fly with someone else.
Now, as RYR certainly in most cases, offer low(er) fares, folks vote with their wallet.
Nothing new there.
Low cost is low cost, period.
Nothing but a knee-jerk reaction to a successful airline, whom appears to beat the sox off the competition.
You can't have it both ways, yet apparently some folks try.
And moan.
And groan.
They apparently meet the IAA requirements...get used to it.
Want it changed?
Write to the IAA.
Continuing to bash RYR clearly will do absolutely no good.
Simple, really.
Clearly, folks have a choice.
Fly Ryanair...fly with someone else.
Now, as RYR certainly in most cases, offer low(er) fares, folks vote with their wallet.
Nothing new there.
Low cost is low cost, period.
Nothing but a knee-jerk reaction to a successful airline, whom appears to beat the sox off the competition.
You can't have it both ways, yet apparently some folks try.
And moan.
And groan.
They apparently meet the IAA requirements...get used to it.
Want it changed?
Write to the IAA.
Continuing to bash RYR clearly will do absolutely no good.
Simple, really.
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Someone asked how many people die on aircraft. A fair number, we used to have a around 2 a week arrive at Heathrow dead.
Of those a number were suffering from a terminal illness anyway, and would have died no matter where they were. Of the rest, most were heart attacks, although DVT's probably accounted for a number too, but it wasn't something that was linked with air travel in the way it is now.
On the subject of CPR, and speaking as someone with a 100% fail rate when I've done it (tried 3, lost 3), on 2 of the occations I didn't have any form of mask, I used a tie. It wouldn't be perfect in preventing me getting anything, but better than nothing. On the other occation, I started with a tie, until another PC arrived with a mask, which I found useless. Probably because I wasn't using it properly, so it got chucked away very quick, not having the time to read the instructions. Back to the trusty tie.
The most disgusting thing I ever saw, was arriving at a call to male collapsed on a bus, airside at LHR, I found the bus full of passengers, all studying the wall, while one guy blew into the apparently lifeless body of a guy who'd collapsed. Those same people however all left when given the option to help or, well, shall we say told to get off the bus.
What I found out after the third failier, was that CPR doesn't often work. Strange no one ever tells you that on first aid courses.
The mask may have been a nice to have for the nureses, and was probably what they were used to having, it isn't nessesary, there are other things you can use. As for gloves, I really don't see wy they are needed.
Of those a number were suffering from a terminal illness anyway, and would have died no matter where they were. Of the rest, most were heart attacks, although DVT's probably accounted for a number too, but it wasn't something that was linked with air travel in the way it is now.
On the subject of CPR, and speaking as someone with a 100% fail rate when I've done it (tried 3, lost 3), on 2 of the occations I didn't have any form of mask, I used a tie. It wouldn't be perfect in preventing me getting anything, but better than nothing. On the other occation, I started with a tie, until another PC arrived with a mask, which I found useless. Probably because I wasn't using it properly, so it got chucked away very quick, not having the time to read the instructions. Back to the trusty tie.
The most disgusting thing I ever saw, was arriving at a call to male collapsed on a bus, airside at LHR, I found the bus full of passengers, all studying the wall, while one guy blew into the apparently lifeless body of a guy who'd collapsed. Those same people however all left when given the option to help or, well, shall we say told to get off the bus.
What I found out after the third failier, was that CPR doesn't often work. Strange no one ever tells you that on first aid courses.
The mask may have been a nice to have for the nureses, and was probably what they were used to having, it isn't nessesary, there are other things you can use. As for gloves, I really don't see wy they are needed.
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BEagle, You have a long history(to my short memory) of posting comments about Ryanair and their service, culture, dislike for the CEO and also how much you enjoy your business class trips in other threads. Your not the only one on here thats for sure! This is I am sure down to a previous negative experience with FR. Thats all fair enough, thats your right. I work for FR as a pilot, and they are a damn lousy employer. I am not interested in defending them one bit. I certainly even hate some of our top brass, but I do hate crap talk, and I believe crap talk is what you are doing.
This is not specifically about Ryanair though, is it? It happened to occur on a Ryanair flight. If you actually listen to what was said by the doctor who was actually on board, unlike you,me and the tabloid journalists. He said that the EMT in CRL said the same was true of all other airlines in Europe, with the few exceptions of the likes of BA who choose to have a higher standard of equipment on board. Thats the fault of the regulators/JAA/EASA. Take your pick. If there is a minimum standard, airlines will follow it. If the minimum standard needs to be raised, then raise it. The airlines do not have enough depth in medical knowledge and yes, god forbid they are driven by profit, the regulators need to make those decision.
Where do we stop with the emergency equipment? Defibilators. Ok so we change the rules. Bang. Done. Whats next? Shall we carry a doctor on board? A whole operating theatre? In fact why don't we do away with all the passangers altogether, we will never have any medical emergencies then!
So what do you specifically recoment Beagle? I am genuinely interested to know as an industry professional. Or where you just here to make yourself feel better, by getting a dig in, about a bad flight you had with Ryanair?
This is not specifically about Ryanair though, is it? It happened to occur on a Ryanair flight. If you actually listen to what was said by the doctor who was actually on board, unlike you,me and the tabloid journalists. He said that the EMT in CRL said the same was true of all other airlines in Europe, with the few exceptions of the likes of BA who choose to have a higher standard of equipment on board. Thats the fault of the regulators/JAA/EASA. Take your pick. If there is a minimum standard, airlines will follow it. If the minimum standard needs to be raised, then raise it. The airlines do not have enough depth in medical knowledge and yes, god forbid they are driven by profit, the regulators need to make those decision.
Where do we stop with the emergency equipment? Defibilators. Ok so we change the rules. Bang. Done. Whats next? Shall we carry a doctor on board? A whole operating theatre? In fact why don't we do away with all the passangers altogether, we will never have any medical emergencies then!
So what do you specifically recoment Beagle? I am genuinely interested to know as an industry professional. Or where you just here to make yourself feel better, by getting a dig in, about a bad flight you had with Ryanair?
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My understanding of the issues from listening to the radio interviews today is that the main issue was O'Leary's attitude to the nurses on board the aircraft. He maintained that the item of equipment that they especially had an issue with, the resuscitation bag was supplied in the first aid box. The nurses say that it wasn’t. According to what I heard on the programme, this item is required by the IAA.
Who would I believe....the nurses.
According to an Aer Lingus engineer on the radio programme today. Not only do all their flights carry first aid boxes but also a fully equipped doctors bag.
I think that O'Leary's image and creditability have been badly damaged by the way he has dealt with this issue and his appearance on the "Primetime" programme about flight crew fatigue. His last comment on that programme, about the union rep.being a "failed pilot" especially comes to mind.
I certainly wouldn't trust anything that the man says. When travelling I would pay that little bit extra to avoid flying Ryanair.I know many people who can afford to do so, will do that as well.
I think that it's time for O'Leary to go, think of how profitable the airline could be with a slight change of attitude towards its customer service and someone at the top with a better attitude.
Who would I believe....the nurses.
According to an Aer Lingus engineer on the radio programme today. Not only do all their flights carry first aid boxes but also a fully equipped doctors bag.
I think that O'Leary's image and creditability have been badly damaged by the way he has dealt with this issue and his appearance on the "Primetime" programme about flight crew fatigue. His last comment on that programme, about the union rep.being a "failed pilot" especially comes to mind.
I certainly wouldn't trust anything that the man says. When travelling I would pay that little bit extra to avoid flying Ryanair.I know many people who can afford to do so, will do that as well.
I think that it's time for O'Leary to go, think of how profitable the airline could be with a slight change of attitude towards its customer service and someone at the top with a better attitude.
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I was a St. John Ambulance officer for many years, before children etc. got in the way. I have also taught loads of people first aid.
When I look at a patient now, I make a decision about their background and whether they are a safe bet for risking mouth to mouth and other unprotected treatments. This is based on visual evidence available and undoubtedly introduces a certain amount of unjustified prejudice. Sorry, but the first rule of first aid is to ensure your own safety.
Would I take a decision not to resuscitate an individual in a major city who looked like they might fit steriotypes of being a tramp, drug user or other medical risk to me. You bet. My life is more valuable to me and my family than theirs, whatever the 'have-a-go heroes' might say.
Would a defibrillator have made a difference to this lady? Maybe, as has been said, it depends on her condition. However, given that Network Rail are now providing automatic external defibs on most major railway stations and many larger offices have them, it would hardly be unreasonable in this multi-million pound business to expect to find one on an airliner. In a straight myocardial infarction, the individual's survival chance decreases by 10 - 15% per minute after the initial 3 minutes, unless they receive defibrillation. Basic cardiac drugs, if you have qualified medical staff on board, add to the increased chance of survival significantly.
Would a mask have made a difference, in this case no, since the nurse carried out resuscitation anyway. However, in the event there is a reluctance to resuscitate, based on a risk assessment (however valid) carried out by a trained first aider at the scene (and risk assessments should hardly be alien to professional pilots) it might influence a decision where someone is worried about what they might catch.
I once read an article in the British Medical Journal by a biker, with multiple body piercings and tatooes, who had nearly died following a road accident. Whilst semi-conscious in A&E, he overheard someone say something like 'Oh, don't bother with him, he's probably got AIDS or something'. Fortunately someone did bother - turned out he was an A&E registrar from another hospital. Lesson 1 is don't make judgements based on prejudice. Lesson 2 is, you probably will anyway. The protective equipment might, in a similar situation, save the life of someone who is actually a valuable member of society.
I completely understand the reluctance to take the risk without it. The equipment (masks at least) costs hardly anything, so the message to Ryanair and any other operators who don't take their responsibilities towards safety of passengers as seriously as Network Rail - get on with it.
HH
When I look at a patient now, I make a decision about their background and whether they are a safe bet for risking mouth to mouth and other unprotected treatments. This is based on visual evidence available and undoubtedly introduces a certain amount of unjustified prejudice. Sorry, but the first rule of first aid is to ensure your own safety.
Would I take a decision not to resuscitate an individual in a major city who looked like they might fit steriotypes of being a tramp, drug user or other medical risk to me. You bet. My life is more valuable to me and my family than theirs, whatever the 'have-a-go heroes' might say.
Would a defibrillator have made a difference to this lady? Maybe, as has been said, it depends on her condition. However, given that Network Rail are now providing automatic external defibs on most major railway stations and many larger offices have them, it would hardly be unreasonable in this multi-million pound business to expect to find one on an airliner. In a straight myocardial infarction, the individual's survival chance decreases by 10 - 15% per minute after the initial 3 minutes, unless they receive defibrillation. Basic cardiac drugs, if you have qualified medical staff on board, add to the increased chance of survival significantly.
Would a mask have made a difference, in this case no, since the nurse carried out resuscitation anyway. However, in the event there is a reluctance to resuscitate, based on a risk assessment (however valid) carried out by a trained first aider at the scene (and risk assessments should hardly be alien to professional pilots) it might influence a decision where someone is worried about what they might catch.
I once read an article in the British Medical Journal by a biker, with multiple body piercings and tatooes, who had nearly died following a road accident. Whilst semi-conscious in A&E, he overheard someone say something like 'Oh, don't bother with him, he's probably got AIDS or something'. Fortunately someone did bother - turned out he was an A&E registrar from another hospital. Lesson 1 is don't make judgements based on prejudice. Lesson 2 is, you probably will anyway. The protective equipment might, in a similar situation, save the life of someone who is actually a valuable member of society.
I completely understand the reluctance to take the risk without it. The equipment (masks at least) costs hardly anything, so the message to Ryanair and any other operators who don't take their responsibilities towards safety of passengers as seriously as Network Rail - get on with it.
HH
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Not quite
From memory I believe that ryr use std boeing first aid kits.Little inadequate kits that look like they were bought at woolies , tacky standard of equipment. They are a joke. This woman would have stood a better chance on a UK registered carrier with Doctors kits and extensive first aid kits theraputic oxygen and defibs, ie something for everything. This is the IAA's fault not ryr. They let them carry these mickey mouse kits and dont legislate for better equipment.Quite frankly their First aid training is a joke as well. But again the fault of the regulator for letting them do it.
Surely the sham of dublin being their head office should be addressed and the CAA make legal moves to change the situation.
Surely the sham of dublin being their head office should be addressed and the CAA make legal moves to change the situation.
Sad story indeed.
Last edited by grimmrad; 27th Sep 2006 at 00:25.
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I guess nobody meant that. However, one of the primary rules in first aid is also the safety of the "first aidee". And with such basic and cheap things it should really not be an issue on a commercial transportation device (aka plane). I had more stuff in my car (when I had one) than it seems was provided to the people involved. As was said above: the availabiliuty of these items might also influence someones decision making on if to intervene or keep quiet...!
Last edited by grimmrad; 27th Sep 2006 at 00:26.
