Wall Street Journal reports on BA 747 3 engine LAX-MAN flight
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L337
so, for the record, your chief pilot would be mad at you for returning to land with an engine shut down, that the Boeing manual would forbid you from doing the same and that you common law duty of care would somehow be violated by landing at LAX?
again, is that for the record?
jon
so, for the record, your chief pilot would be mad at you for returning to land with an engine shut down, that the Boeing manual would forbid you from doing the same and that you common law duty of care would somehow be violated by landing at LAX?
again, is that for the record?
jon
the lunatic fringe
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returning to land with an engine shut down, that the Boeing manual would forbid you from doing the same and that you common law duty of care would somehow be violated by landing at LAX?
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dear L337
by no means do I wish to convey the idea that you are stupid, nor any of the members of this forum
what I am trying to do is to get pilots to think beyond the world of the rule book, of piloting the aircraft and remember this:
not only are you the "driver of the aeroplane" but you and what you do every day reflects on you, your airline, and the whole aviation community.
if you are in a desperate situation, of course be the pilot and get down safely and the hell with what others think...I MEAN THAT, cut off AIR FORCE ONE if you need to and flip them the finger if that helps you land safely!
but if you have time to think, to weigh all the choices you have, then be sure to remember how it might reflect upon you , your airline and the whole aviation community.
in your post, you are trying to get at the idea that you and the way you fly should not be dictated by how the press sees and reports it. and in the desperate situation, more power to you.
but, there is more to flying now, the pilot in, addition to being superb at flying the plane, must also be lawyer, corporate executive, nurse maid, flying instructor, public relations expert, and a myriad of other things.
If time permits, consider everything, if time doesn't, fly like a tiger!
j
by no means do I wish to convey the idea that you are stupid, nor any of the members of this forum
what I am trying to do is to get pilots to think beyond the world of the rule book, of piloting the aircraft and remember this:
not only are you the "driver of the aeroplane" but you and what you do every day reflects on you, your airline, and the whole aviation community.
if you are in a desperate situation, of course be the pilot and get down safely and the hell with what others think...I MEAN THAT, cut off AIR FORCE ONE if you need to and flip them the finger if that helps you land safely!
but if you have time to think, to weigh all the choices you have, then be sure to remember how it might reflect upon you , your airline and the whole aviation community.
in your post, you are trying to get at the idea that you and the way you fly should not be dictated by how the press sees and reports it. and in the desperate situation, more power to you.
but, there is more to flying now, the pilot in, addition to being superb at flying the plane, must also be lawyer, corporate executive, nurse maid, flying instructor, public relations expert, and a myriad of other things.
If time permits, consider everything, if time doesn't, fly like a tiger!
j
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L337
so, for the record, your chief pilot would be mad at you for returning to land with an engine shut down, that the Boeing manual would forbid you from doing the same and that you common law duty of care would somehow be violated by landing at LAX?
again, is that for the record?
jon
so, for the record, your chief pilot would be mad at you for returning to land with an engine shut down, that the Boeing manual would forbid you from doing the same and that you common law duty of care would somehow be violated by landing at LAX?
again, is that for the record?
jon
PS We really don't need you to get us to think beyond the rule book, we do that every day thank you, and we are fully aware of the consequences of our decisions in the publics eyes. As I stated previously, we are still fulll out of LAX most days and the FAA have dropped all the charges, so it would appear to me that despite the 'storm in a teacup' of the FAAs misinformed rant the public are still more than willing to put their money where our mouths are.
the lunatic fringe
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jondc9:
As I am sure you know a pilot has three legal obligations.
1. Duty of Care. That is a common law obligation.
2. CAA Licence.
3. Contractual
That is the legal framework in which I as a Captain discharge my responsibilities. No number four marked CNN/BBC.
I fundamentaly disagree with your assertion that a pilot a must also be "public relations expert". BA pay me a wage to fly their aeroplanes their way. So long as I take care of 1, and 2 above, then I will do as 3 asks. If that gets BA into hot water with the press, that is BA's problem.
If a situation exists outside the "book" then I will do my best. Do what I believe to be firstly safe, and secondly commercial. In that order. No thirdly "What will look good in the press".
BA will defend any Captain to the hilt, and have done so, so long as they have complied with 1,2 and 3 above. To invent a fourth will have you hung out to dry.
As I am sure you know a pilot has three legal obligations.
1. Duty of Care. That is a common law obligation.
2. CAA Licence.
3. Contractual
That is the legal framework in which I as a Captain discharge my responsibilities. No number four marked CNN/BBC.
I fundamentaly disagree with your assertion that a pilot a must also be "public relations expert". BA pay me a wage to fly their aeroplanes their way. So long as I take care of 1, and 2 above, then I will do as 3 asks. If that gets BA into hot water with the press, that is BA's problem.
If a situation exists outside the "book" then I will do my best. Do what I believe to be firstly safe, and secondly commercial. In that order. No thirdly "What will look good in the press".
BA will defend any Captain to the hilt, and have done so, so long as they have complied with 1,2 and 3 above. To invent a fourth will have you hung out to dry.
aka Capt PPRuNe
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Jon, your analogy, as has already been pointed out, is precisely why you have lost your credibility on here amongst your peers. You are not only trying to teach us how to suck eggs but you do it with such a patronising tone. 
I, for one, am beginning to have serious doubts that you have ever been a professional pilot. We have had impostors on here in the past. They try to talk the talk but invariably they get hoisted by their own petards. Most of us would refrain from making judgements without knowing all the facts. You however are obviously prepared to put foot in mouth whilst ignoring advice by others who obviously not only know better but have the experience to back it up too.
I am seriously considering having a ranking system on here where posters will have the content of their posts assessed and readers can immediately see who is considered worthwhile reading and who should be avoided or at least taken with a pinch of salt. I certainly know that if I'm getting angry reading some of the patronising tripe on here then many other are too. I prefer for readers who may not have an understanding of professional pilot issues to at least know what is real and what is fantasy.
I, for one, am beginning to have serious doubts that you have ever been a professional pilot. We have had impostors on here in the past. They try to talk the talk but invariably they get hoisted by their own petards. Most of us would refrain from making judgements without knowing all the facts. You however are obviously prepared to put foot in mouth whilst ignoring advice by others who obviously not only know better but have the experience to back it up too.
I am seriously considering having a ranking system on here where posters will have the content of their posts assessed and readers can immediately see who is considered worthwhile reading and who should be avoided or at least taken with a pinch of salt. I certainly know that if I'm getting angry reading some of the patronising tripe on here then many other are too. I prefer for readers who may not have an understanding of professional pilot issues to at least know what is real and what is fantasy.
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Most of us would refrain from making judgements without knowing all the facts.
BA have a good reputation and the FAA dont have the cooperation of the CAA.They have the promise that such a decision will not be taken again in their airspace so they've dropped it.
I am seriously considering having a ranking system
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Dear Danny:
I have noticed that on internet forums that people who feel there is a patronizing tone usually add that tone from their own backgrounds.
Danny, you and I have been 'round and 'round on my credentials as a pilot and I even invited you and your staff to check out my credentials on the FAA WEB site. Have you done so? I will suppose not.
That YOU get angry at my posts means I am moving a debate forward. Indeed it is the open views freely expressed on this forum that makes it worthwhile. Change it if you will, give the DANNY stamp of approval, and you will lose your credibility.
In one breath you say my peers, in another you question if I have flown as a pro pilot.
RIGHT HERE AND NOW, prove me not to be who I say I am, or retract your statement! Do the 5 minutes of investigation to prove my credentials via the FAA & say you are sorry, or prove my lack of ATPMELCFIIMEI.
By the way, any of you who read "Air Line Pilot" magazine, ( the official journal of ALPA/USA & Canada ) can find my full name in the october issue on page 4 under the longest letter to the editor on that page. That should prove something to Capt. Danny about my credentials.
I await a statement from DANNY.
To L377
you have given me all I needed to know, that you fly BA's plane, BA's way and do what you are told to do. That would explain all of this bit about commercial viability of decisions. I wonder who told the pilots to take it as far as they could...I mean what position that person held or still holds. Director of operations, Chief pilot, president of company?
In America, I think you would be called a "company man".
happy landings!
jon
I have noticed that on internet forums that people who feel there is a patronizing tone usually add that tone from their own backgrounds.
Danny, you and I have been 'round and 'round on my credentials as a pilot and I even invited you and your staff to check out my credentials on the FAA WEB site. Have you done so? I will suppose not.
That YOU get angry at my posts means I am moving a debate forward. Indeed it is the open views freely expressed on this forum that makes it worthwhile. Change it if you will, give the DANNY stamp of approval, and you will lose your credibility.
In one breath you say my peers, in another you question if I have flown as a pro pilot.
RIGHT HERE AND NOW, prove me not to be who I say I am, or retract your statement! Do the 5 minutes of investigation to prove my credentials via the FAA & say you are sorry, or prove my lack of ATPMELCFIIMEI.
By the way, any of you who read "Air Line Pilot" magazine, ( the official journal of ALPA/USA & Canada ) can find my full name in the october issue on page 4 under the longest letter to the editor on that page. That should prove something to Capt. Danny about my credentials.
I await a statement from DANNY.
To L377
you have given me all I needed to know, that you fly BA's plane, BA's way and do what you are told to do. That would explain all of this bit about commercial viability of decisions. I wonder who told the pilots to take it as far as they could...I mean what position that person held or still holds. Director of operations, Chief pilot, president of company?
In America, I think you would be called a "company man".
happy landings!
jon
Last edited by jondc9; 2nd Oct 2006 at 21:00.
the lunatic fringe
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I wonder who told the pilots to take it as far as they could...I mean what position that person held or still holds. Director of operations, Chief pilot, president of company?
I invite you to prove that the LAX-LHR flight was told to continue by the Director of operations, Chief pilot, or President of company. And if u can you can have my salary for a year.
The truth is that they were not. In no way at all. They flew the operation as per BA SOPs.
In Europe you would be called a "Journalist"
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Dear L337
I offer this quote from the first post on this thread...what do YOU MAKE OF THIS QUOTE:?
< He next told the controller, "We have now shut down the No. 2 engine. We are going to consult our company and see what they require us to do.">
There is even a LINK to allow YOU to hear the actual pilots speaking on the radio to ATC.
I am asking you; who did the pilots consult with at their company?
Did you ever read the article that this POST is based upon?
It is a simple question and you should be able to answer it. I don't want your wages.
Woodward and Bernstein are journalists too! thanks for the heartfelt compliment!
I offer this quote from the first post on this thread...what do YOU MAKE OF THIS QUOTE:?
< He next told the controller, "We have now shut down the No. 2 engine. We are going to consult our company and see what they require us to do.">
There is even a LINK to allow YOU to hear the actual pilots speaking on the radio to ATC.
I am asking you; who did the pilots consult with at their company?
Did you ever read the article that this POST is based upon?
It is a simple question and you should be able to answer it. I don't want your wages.
Woodward and Bernstein are journalists too! thanks for the heartfelt compliment!
the lunatic fringe
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Oh dear. Dear jondc9
You think that they had an engine failure. Spoke to the "Company" and the Director of operations, Chief pilot, or President of company. Or his gofer said. "Continue to London."
The actual line of events is the "company" will be a bunch of engineers, in London, who will be pouring over a whole pile of engine data that will have been spat instantly via satellite down the data link. Who will then look at the data and give advice to the Captain as to the state of the engine and, the likely cause of the failure.
Three button pushes gets you talking to LHR Operations. 30 seconds at most.
The Captain will then make his own decision as to what to do. He is the man in the frame. That is what he is paid to do. He carries the can. He decides. On the day he continued.
Spare me. Please.
You think that they had an engine failure. Spoke to the "Company" and the Director of operations, Chief pilot, or President of company. Or his gofer said. "Continue to London."
The actual line of events is the "company" will be a bunch of engineers, in London, who will be pouring over a whole pile of engine data that will have been spat instantly via satellite down the data link. Who will then look at the data and give advice to the Captain as to the state of the engine and, the likely cause of the failure.
Three button pushes gets you talking to LHR Operations. 30 seconds at most.
The Captain will then make his own decision as to what to do. He is the man in the frame. That is what he is paid to do. He carries the can. He decides. On the day he continued.
Did you ever read the article that this POST is based upon?
the lunatic fringe
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L337
are you afraid to read the article first up on this thread? afraid to listen to the ATC tapes?
please yourself.
j of r
are you afraid to read the article first up on this thread? afraid to listen to the ATC tapes?
please yourself.
j of r
What is your point?
I have read the article. I have followed the hundreds of posts. I have listened to the ATC tapes. What more do you require?
Finally, I do the job.
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< He next told the controller, "We have now shut down the No. 2 engine. We are going to consult our company and see what they require us to do.">
L337...
the quote says: SEE WHAT THEY REQUIRE US TO DO
not something like: we will check with engineering to find out how our engine is
finally, I READ THE QUOTE.
L337...
the quote says: SEE WHAT THEY REQUIRE US TO DO
not something like: we will check with engineering to find out how our engine is
finally, I READ THE QUOTE.
The Analog Kid
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Toodlepip!
Rich.
the lunatic fringe
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So he used the word REQUIRE. No doubt made in the heat of battle. And you definitely are giving it too much importance.
However, no matter the phrase he chose to use, on the day the company will only provide him with information so as to help him in the decision making process. It is called "Using all available resources".
I get the strong impression you see a conspiracy theory here. You are looking for "Deep Throat". The truth is that there is none. If you think that everytime a BA flight has a problem he phones home and asks what to do, you are living in an alternate universe. Captains are paid to make informed decisions. That is what he did.
Over and over gain.
The Captain is paid to make decisions. He makes them. The company can require you fly inverted. Naked. to the South Pole. It is always the Captians decision to do so, or not.
In this instance he would say no. Because he has a duty of care to his passengers, and he values his licence.
However, no matter the phrase he chose to use, on the day the company will only provide him with information so as to help him in the decision making process. It is called "Using all available resources".
I get the strong impression you see a conspiracy theory here. You are looking for "Deep Throat". The truth is that there is none. If you think that everytime a BA flight has a problem he phones home and asks what to do, you are living in an alternate universe. Captains are paid to make informed decisions. That is what he did.
Over and over gain.
The Captain is paid to make decisions. He makes them. The company can require you fly inverted. Naked. to the South Pole. It is always the Captians decision to do so, or not.
In this instance he would say no. Because he has a duty of care to his passengers, and he values his licence.
the lunatic fringe
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I would also like to add. That if you had been a professional pilot, you would not need me to explain this to you.
That you clearly do not understand the decsion making process on a flight deck concerns me. It is not rocket science. That is just the way it is. Not only in BA, but in every airline, and outfit I have ever flown with.
When all the information is in. It is the aeroplane that is strapped to his rear end. Not some bloke in ops.
The buck stops with the Captain.
That you clearly do not understand the decsion making process on a flight deck concerns me. It is not rocket science. That is just the way it is. Not only in BA, but in every airline, and outfit I have ever flown with.
When all the information is in. It is the aeroplane that is strapped to his rear end. Not some bloke in ops.
The buck stops with the Captain.
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The buck stops with the Captain. Every time.
He would most likely have consulted Operations Control and presented them with what had happened and the options that were available to him (ie. I can continue to LHR, I can continue to the East Coast, I can hang about for a couple of hours and dump fuel). What would you like me to do?
If he had said to Ops Control, "I am continuing", or "I am diverting", they would have had to accept it. It's all in accordance with SOPs.
Had it been a "catastrophic" engine failure such as "Fire" or "Severe Damage/Separation", something which degraded safety, I would venture that BA Ops Control would not have found out about the situation until the aeroplane was back on the ground at LAX.
He would most likely have consulted Operations Control and presented them with what had happened and the options that were available to him (ie. I can continue to LHR, I can continue to the East Coast, I can hang about for a couple of hours and dump fuel). What would you like me to do?
If he had said to Ops Control, "I am continuing", or "I am diverting", they would have had to accept it. It's all in accordance with SOPs.
Had it been a "catastrophic" engine failure such as "Fire" or "Severe Damage/Separation", something which degraded safety, I would venture that BA Ops Control would not have found out about the situation until the aeroplane was back on the ground at LAX.
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jondc9
It follows then that this would be your opinion of the gentlemen up front that day. In most corners of the planet earth, the flight crew under scrutiny here would be called 'experienced pilots making balanced judgements based on all the information available to them.'
Other true professionals would be loath to criticise them without having an in-depth knowledge of the circumstances, which includes a sound appreciation of the aircraft's capabilities and procedures.
You, on the other hand, may be referred to as a 'misguided, supercilious commentator, applying twin logic to 4 engine operations.'
It does not matter what information or logic was presented to you, I am sure that you would not change your opinion in this instance. There is a rather disturbing God-like tone in the vast majority of your posts. For that reason I would feel very uneasy about flying with you. If we believe that we have stopped learning, that is the point at which we become a liability in my very humble European opinion.
You would be well served to take L337's wages and put yourself through a 747-400 course. Hell, we could all chip in. It might open your eyes, but then again probably not. Your vision is distorted not because your eyes are closed but because you wear the blinkers of arrogance and a closed mind. Your unsubstantiated, egotistical drivel is a disservice to the rightly respected pilot community in America. I am sure that they view you with a similar level of contempt as we do.
And I promised myself I wouldn't bother.....
In America, I think you would be called a "company man".
Other true professionals would be loath to criticise them without having an in-depth knowledge of the circumstances, which includes a sound appreciation of the aircraft's capabilities and procedures.
You, on the other hand, may be referred to as a 'misguided, supercilious commentator, applying twin logic to 4 engine operations.'
It does not matter what information or logic was presented to you, I am sure that you would not change your opinion in this instance. There is a rather disturbing God-like tone in the vast majority of your posts. For that reason I would feel very uneasy about flying with you. If we believe that we have stopped learning, that is the point at which we become a liability in my very humble European opinion.
You would be well served to take L337's wages and put yourself through a 747-400 course. Hell, we could all chip in. It might open your eyes, but then again probably not. Your vision is distorted not because your eyes are closed but because you wear the blinkers of arrogance and a closed mind. Your unsubstantiated, egotistical drivel is a disservice to the rightly respected pilot community in America. I am sure that they view you with a similar level of contempt as we do.
And I promised myself I wouldn't bother.....
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nice flaps
<If we believe that we have stopped learning, that is the point at which we become a liability in my very humble European opinion.>
and that appears to have happened on your side of the pond
we are fortunate to live in countries which allow freedom of speech. your perceptions of my posts are just that , your perceptions.
you should hear what pilots on this side of the pond think of the choices made on that day...including 2 friends who are on the mighty 747-400
<If we believe that we have stopped learning, that is the point at which we become a liability in my very humble European opinion.>
and that appears to have happened on your side of the pond
we are fortunate to live in countries which allow freedom of speech. your perceptions of my posts are just that , your perceptions.
you should hear what pilots on this side of the pond think of the choices made on that day...including 2 friends who are on the mighty 747-400