EasyJet A319 Complete Loss of Electric Power?
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Last year an instructor and pupil out of Exeter had a complete radio failure, a fair distance and height from the field. Instructor called tower on his phone, getting priority clearance in what has become affectionately known as the Nokia approach. Seems to have caught on! Good work by the crew.
Fly by cable, fly by wire... do away with the lot. Go wireless and fly by broadband!
h
Fly by cable, fly by wire... do away with the lot. Go wireless and fly by broadband!
h
Mistrust in Management
sarah737
Although I am an anti-airbus guy I am absolutely sure there was finger trouble at some point and this is not third hand.
Sarah,
Surely you cannot be certain of finger trouble until the investigation is complete. Lets wait shall we?
BTW I'm not nuts on the 'bus', but I only flew it for about 3years and then went back to Boeings. I would imagine that I would still have a lot to learn about the intricacies of Airbus products.
The ECAM was not as straight-forward as the system on theB777 for sure.
Nothing like a straight-forward QRH which is easily amended - unlike the ECAM on buses.
Kind regards
Exeng
Dave O'Leary: A Captain can break any regulation or procedure in an emergency situation, if he has a good reason for it.
Andy Pandy: The turbofan aircraft flown by many of us are old and they can only fly in a condition which Airbus pilots call 'Direct Law'.
Loose Rivets: Years ago a Zantop "Logair" mission Electra crashed near Provo, Utah in IMC. The Flight Engineer made a mistake during an electrical fault and the pilots lost both ADIs/horizons.
Under the'grandfather' rule, Zantop's Electras were never required to have standby horizons powered by the batteries etc. Neither were the US Air Force/AFRES/ANG C-130s for decades.
My father twice lost all C-130 (A and E model) electrics and both horizons+ everything else in night IMC. Outstanding professional Flight Engineers saved everyone's lives twice. The second time was about 500' agl in solid IMC above Scott AFB, east of St. Louis. The FE immediately switched on his flashlight (torch) and put it on the Aircraft Commander's horizon as the 'gyro' flag came on. This flying was a frequent part-time job over many years for my Dad and thousands of others.
Complex aircraft are no longer designed with Flight Engineers. The AF KC-135 and B-52 never had them.
Andy Pandy: The turbofan aircraft flown by many of us are old and they can only fly in a condition which Airbus pilots call 'Direct Law'.
Loose Rivets: Years ago a Zantop "Logair" mission Electra crashed near Provo, Utah in IMC. The Flight Engineer made a mistake during an electrical fault and the pilots lost both ADIs/horizons.
Under the'grandfather' rule, Zantop's Electras were never required to have standby horizons powered by the batteries etc. Neither were the US Air Force/AFRES/ANG C-130s for decades.
My father twice lost all C-130 (A and E model) electrics and both horizons+ everything else in night IMC. Outstanding professional Flight Engineers saved everyone's lives twice. The second time was about 500' agl in solid IMC above Scott AFB, east of St. Louis. The FE immediately switched on his flashlight (torch) and put it on the Aircraft Commander's horizon as the 'gyro' flag came on. This flying was a frequent part-time job over many years for my Dad and thousands of others.
Complex aircraft are no longer designed with Flight Engineers. The AF KC-135 and B-52 never had them.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 23rd Sep 2006 at 00:14.
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Airbus don't have much luck with CVR's. Didn't the Air France tree-cutter's CVR stop working at an inopportune moment, as did the CVR on the China Airlines A300 that went down at Shanghai?
Airbus! I just don't TRUST them. These aircraft are still trying to fox crews with their bollocks but the manufacturers STILL claim "its not possible". Jaysus!
Psychophysiological entity
One of my old captains once said, "All God's pilots got torches." Hopefully, all God's pilots can get at them when the aircraft is in an extreme unusual attitude....and also find that they work.
The following is something I feel very strongly about...since the 747 crash at Stansted really.
When I was a new ppruner, I made some comment about turn and slip indicators and the fact that they are such a simple piece of kit...and even while on batteries, could output to a warning system if on full scale deflection. Why did they get taken out of the standard panel I asked. I got flamed.
Much of the flaming was about posting my meanderings on R&N, and one soul piped up and said that there was little chance of controlling an aircraft on such an instrument. It wasn't put so politely.
Having done dozens of approaches and occasionally full blind landings on limited panel–monitored by a test pilot in the RHS I hasten to add–I know that this modest instrument would have saved the Viscount. That particular captain loved such challenges and with power on just one tied gyro he would, I am sure, have pulled off a cloud-break.
This little instrument can take any amount of chaotic input, and still be as good as before any upset. Some of the standby horizons, while on back-up power are not as solid as they may appear.
I have had two major losses of instruments in my career, plus two across-the-board black screen scenarios. Yep, the standby horizon worked in these latter cases, but the power came from the heart of a rather badly designed electrical system.
As any glider pilot will know, there is an horizon that is so small that you could put it in your shirt pocket. It's strange to think that such an item plus a mobile phone, could save hundreds of lives.
The following is something I feel very strongly about...since the 747 crash at Stansted really.
When I was a new ppruner, I made some comment about turn and slip indicators and the fact that they are such a simple piece of kit...and even while on batteries, could output to a warning system if on full scale deflection. Why did they get taken out of the standard panel I asked. I got flamed.
Much of the flaming was about posting my meanderings on R&N, and one soul piped up and said that there was little chance of controlling an aircraft on such an instrument. It wasn't put so politely.
Having done dozens of approaches and occasionally full blind landings on limited panel–monitored by a test pilot in the RHS I hasten to add–I know that this modest instrument would have saved the Viscount. That particular captain loved such challenges and with power on just one tied gyro he would, I am sure, have pulled off a cloud-break.
This little instrument can take any amount of chaotic input, and still be as good as before any upset. Some of the standby horizons, while on back-up power are not as solid as they may appear.
I have had two major losses of instruments in my career, plus two across-the-board black screen scenarios. Yep, the standby horizon worked in these latter cases, but the power came from the heart of a rather badly designed electrical system.
As any glider pilot will know, there is an horizon that is so small that you could put it in your shirt pocket. It's strange to think that such an item plus a mobile phone, could save hundreds of lives.
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Looks like a DC ESS BUS FAULT.
Have to do some Ecam/Air Data switching to get captns PFD and the status page back.
Cab press 2 available, no need for em. gear ext. as LGCIU 2 is still there. Both gen`s are working, no RAT.
Also you loose a lot of non essentials.
Anyway, it`s not an easy one as for instance RMP 3 (radio) is the only one working, together with CAptn`s PTT!
Fire pushbuttons have to be used to shut engines down as FCMC 1 and 2 (part) are not working.
NOT an easy failure, requires some Airbus thinking. Cheers.
Have to do some Ecam/Air Data switching to get captns PFD and the status page back.
Cab press 2 available, no need for em. gear ext. as LGCIU 2 is still there. Both gen`s are working, no RAT.
Also you loose a lot of non essentials.
Anyway, it`s not an easy one as for instance RMP 3 (radio) is the only one working, together with CAptn`s PTT!
Fire pushbuttons have to be used to shut engines down as FCMC 1 and 2 (part) are not working.
NOT an easy failure, requires some Airbus thinking. Cheers.
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Yeah I heard similar details to Andy Pandy although I did hear that the RAT was out upon landing.
AAIB did a good job of keeping it hush. I walked into work the next day to pass a guy in a huge bright red coat, with AAIB INCIDENT CO-ORDINATOR written all over it. No-one suspected a thing!
AAIB did a good job of keeping it hush. I walked into work the next day to pass a guy in a huge bright red coat, with AAIB INCIDENT CO-ORDINATOR written all over it. No-one suspected a thing!
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I have absolutely no idea if this story is correct or not - it certainly seems to have an air of truth about it. What I can say is that this is the first I have heard about the alleged incident and there has been absolutely nothing from the company on the subject. If it is true I would hope that that a very full and thorough description of what happened will be forthcoming very soon.
Reading some of the posts here, you could be forgiven for thinking that electrical failures on Airbuses are regular events. All I can tell you is that I have flown them for years and have never had a single electrical failure of any kind (except in the simulator!).
Reading some of the posts here, you could be forgiven for thinking that electrical failures on Airbuses are regular events. All I can tell you is that I have flown them for years and have never had a single electrical failure of any kind (except in the simulator!).
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NSF - the event did happen - ask any engineer at Bristol. Originally the aircraft departed with one gen. u/s with the apu on to substitute. As for the RAT, it did not deploy - I know that because I watched the aircraft land.
SLF hand held radio
SLF,
You asked a question earlier about hand held radios. It is my understanding that to be effective it would need to have an output of aroung 20W and the best on the market is only 5W with most less than 2W. You could route it through an existing aircraft arial but that would be a major modification and still probably not enough power to send a useful signal.There are only one or two very old or obselete models which are approved by the UK CAA for use in an aircraft. Of course a company could do some trials and certification but it would be very expensive especially if the pre-study suggested it would not work sufficiently well.
In summary I think it is a good idea which would not be effective in practice. But I am not an engineer and would welcome informed comment by an engineer.
Perhaps this is something which could be discussed in the Tech Log forum.
MM
You asked a question earlier about hand held radios. It is my understanding that to be effective it would need to have an output of aroung 20W and the best on the market is only 5W with most less than 2W. You could route it through an existing aircraft arial but that would be a major modification and still probably not enough power to send a useful signal.There are only one or two very old or obselete models which are approved by the UK CAA for use in an aircraft. Of course a company could do some trials and certification but it would be very expensive especially if the pre-study suggested it would not work sufficiently well.
In summary I think it is a good idea which would not be effective in practice. But I am not an engineer and would welcome informed comment by an engineer.
Perhaps this is something which could be discussed in the Tech Log forum.
MM
Last edited by Miles Magister; 23rd Sep 2006 at 08:11. Reason: Addition of last line.
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i've tried several times to check and see if my mobile would work in flight and i never get a signal?
how low and slow must you be to get it to connect?
or is it a function of certain services work better than others? or do i need to arrange an in-flight subscription add on?
i have seen numbers to contact ATC in the loss of comm section, but have never been able to imagine it to work-especially if one were at the higher FL's.
please let me know how it works.
cheers;
how low and slow must you be to get it to connect?
or is it a function of certain services work better than others? or do i need to arrange an in-flight subscription add on?
i have seen numbers to contact ATC in the loss of comm section, but have never been able to imagine it to work-especially if one were at the higher FL's.
please let me know how it works.
cheers;
/CP
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Mobile phones!
Having used mobiles on ferry flights reception has nothing to do with height speed or atttitude.
It is like buying a house - Location location location.
Like walking down the street on the phone - one minute you have it then nothing.
It the location of the relay station.
I must say height is a factor I have had reception up to 20,000 feet but not after that as it then is a pure distance thing.
You can see from the various comment how scientific it is !!
Having used mobiles on ferry flights reception has nothing to do with height speed or atttitude.
It is like buying a house - Location location location.
Like walking down the street on the phone - one minute you have it then nothing.
It the location of the relay station.
I must say height is a factor I have had reception up to 20,000 feet but not after that as it then is a pure distance thing.
You can see from the various comment how scientific it is !!
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Mobile phones!
Having used mobiles on ferry flights reception has nothing to do with height speed or atttitude.
It is like buying a house - Location location location.
Like walking down the street on the phone - one minute you have it then nothing.
It the location of the relay station.
I must say height is a factor I have had reception up to 20,000 feet but not after that as it then is a pure distance thing.
You can see from the various comment how scientific it is !!
Having used mobiles on ferry flights reception has nothing to do with height speed or atttitude.
It is like buying a house - Location location location.
Like walking down the street on the phone - one minute you have it then nothing.
It the location of the relay station.
I must say height is a factor I have had reception up to 20,000 feet but not after that as it then is a pure distance thing.
You can see from the various comment how scientific it is !!
Last edited by hetfield; 23rd Sep 2006 at 12:07.
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For anyone Manchester based in the UK, My mobile normally picks up signal just before you fly over Tesco and Asda in Stockport!! not sure how high you are there roughly? maybe a member of flight deck can tell us?
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I have since learned that what I posted is broadly correct. The AAIB are investigating and I shall await the report with great interest.
One correction is that a mobile telephone was NOT used by the crew to contact ATC.
One correction is that a mobile telephone was NOT used by the crew to contact ATC.
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Usually 1500 to 2000 ft I think. Around the times that the u/c drops down.
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Btw, you recognize it when gray background of speed tapes on PFD disappear - if you still have a PFD
I agree it's difficult to recognize this failure and needs quite some switching (especially for radio). Airbus syllabus doesn't cover that failure, you don't speak about it at all during your whole course. We played it through in Swiss Training where you do a bit more than just basics.
Dani
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ELEC DC ESS BUS FAULT
-VHF 2 OR 3..............USE
-AUDIO SWTG..............SELECT
(ACP 1 and 2 are lost. Therefore, set the AUDIO SWTG selector to CAPT 3 or F/O 3 to recover communications.
- BARO REF..............CHECK
NAV GPWS FAULT
-GPWS..............OFF
FUEL L TANK PUMP 1 LO PR
FUEL R TANK PUMP 1 LO PR
VENT BLOWER FAULT
NOTE: To shut down the engines on ground, use ENG FIRE pushbutton
AFFECTED SYSTEMS
* CAB PRESS
* HYD
* F/CTL
STATUS
LDG DIST PROC..............APLLY
ENG 1 APPR IDLE ONLY
ENG 2 APPR IDLE ONLY
BOTH PFD ON SAME FAC
SLATS/FLAPS SLOW
CAT2 ONLY
INOP SYS DISPLAYED ON ECAM
B HYD
SPLR 3
VHF1
ACP1+2
WING A. ICE
AP 1
A/THR
FCU1
FAC1
L TK PUMP 1
R TK PUMP 1
REV 2
ENG 2 START
CAB PR 1
VENT EXTRACT
B ELEC PUMP
GPWS
ENG 1 LOOP A
ENG 2 LOOP B
FCDC 1
CAT 3
OTHER INOPERATIVE SYSTEMS
BRK PRESS INDICATOR
FLIGHT INTERPHONE
EIU 2
CPT REIN REPELLENT
AVIONICS AIR COND VALVE
STBY HORIZON
STBY COMPASS LIGHT
HP FUEL SHUT-OFF VALVES
SFCC 1
RMP 1
HYD FIRE VALVES ENG 1 AND 2
RAM AIR INLET
ECAM CONTROL PANEL
LEFT LOUDSPEAKER
DC SHED ESS BUS
---
From Airbus FCOM training manual.
Best Regards
Rampi
-VHF 2 OR 3..............USE
-AUDIO SWTG..............SELECT
(ACP 1 and 2 are lost. Therefore, set the AUDIO SWTG selector to CAPT 3 or F/O 3 to recover communications.
- BARO REF..............CHECK
NAV GPWS FAULT
-GPWS..............OFF
FUEL L TANK PUMP 1 LO PR
FUEL R TANK PUMP 1 LO PR
VENT BLOWER FAULT
NOTE: To shut down the engines on ground, use ENG FIRE pushbutton
AFFECTED SYSTEMS
* CAB PRESS
* HYD
* F/CTL
STATUS
LDG DIST PROC..............APLLY
ENG 1 APPR IDLE ONLY
ENG 2 APPR IDLE ONLY
BOTH PFD ON SAME FAC
SLATS/FLAPS SLOW
CAT2 ONLY
INOP SYS DISPLAYED ON ECAM
B HYD
SPLR 3
VHF1
ACP1+2
WING A. ICE
AP 1
A/THR
FCU1
FAC1
L TK PUMP 1
R TK PUMP 1
REV 2
ENG 2 START
CAB PR 1
VENT EXTRACT
B ELEC PUMP
GPWS
ENG 1 LOOP A
ENG 2 LOOP B
FCDC 1
CAT 3
OTHER INOPERATIVE SYSTEMS
BRK PRESS INDICATOR
FLIGHT INTERPHONE
EIU 2
CPT REIN REPELLENT
AVIONICS AIR COND VALVE
STBY HORIZON
STBY COMPASS LIGHT
HP FUEL SHUT-OFF VALVES
SFCC 1
RMP 1
HYD FIRE VALVES ENG 1 AND 2
RAM AIR INLET
ECAM CONTROL PANEL
LEFT LOUDSPEAKER
DC SHED ESS BUS
---
From Airbus FCOM training manual.
Best Regards
Rampi