Multi-crew Pilots Licence (formerly: South African Airway's plan to get co-pilots)
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Oh and Champagne lover I might be wrong but I heard the plan is only to fly a real aircraft to ppl.....twin and night conversion and everything else is all in the sim!
Cant wait to fly with these guys!
Cant wait to fly with these guys!
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[quote=Maltese Falcon;2958055]This assumption that affirmative action/positive discrimination is necessarily a bad thing has to be addressed. A quick look at the population of South Africa: 79.5% Black, 11.4% Asian and Coloured and 9.2% White. The flight deck crew of SAA meanwhile is at least 80% white. The reason for this grossly disproportionate representation of white people on the flight deck is not, as some posters seem to think, because black people lack the intelligence or the wherewithal to become airline pilots nor that white people have displayed greater determination and tenacity in attaining airline positions. No, the reason is the legacy of apartheid and 40 odd years of racist legislation that meant that black people were denied access to a decent education and hence jobs. Without intervention, this grossly disproportionate distribution of opportunity could continue for a number of generations. Affirmative action in SA is just a way of speeding up the process of restoring social justice.
While I support affirmative action in SAA, there are no justifiable reasons why these Non-White cadets should not be given a proper Pilots course leading to a proper CPL/IR and ATPL. This will ensure that their Knowledge, Skills, Abilities and Capabilities are not suspect or in doubt. I am afraid that this may turn out to be another grand design (intentionally or otherwise) to patronise and justify the continued discrimination of our Black and Non-white collgues. I think the World has since moved on past this type of justificaton for covert and insipient denial of proper and equal education to Blacks, just to maintain a non level professional playing field. If the cadet system worked well for the White Pilots, then it should be used for the Black and Non-White Cadets. Period
While I support affirmative action in SAA, there are no justifiable reasons why these Non-White cadets should not be given a proper Pilots course leading to a proper CPL/IR and ATPL. This will ensure that their Knowledge, Skills, Abilities and Capabilities are not suspect or in doubt. I am afraid that this may turn out to be another grand design (intentionally or otherwise) to patronise and justify the continued discrimination of our Black and Non-white collgues. I think the World has since moved on past this type of justificaton for covert and insipient denial of proper and equal education to Blacks, just to maintain a non level professional playing field. If the cadet system worked well for the White Pilots, then it should be used for the Black and Non-White Cadets. Period
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There are two issues in this discussion - one, the MPL; and two, SAA's interest in it.
The MPL may indeed have some merit - at least there has been and continues to be in-depth investigation at an international level of these possible merits.
The problem is that SAA will not even give the MPL as much consideration as it has been given in this very thread! SAA want black pilots, and they want them as quickly as they can get them, period. And if something called, eish, an MPL, can help with this, then, hau, that is the way to go, yes.
If there were a licence which enabled you to be an airliner pilot after gaining 200hrs in a taxi, you can bet your bottom dollar that SAA would be trying to implement it.
SAA is as a microcosm of the New South Africa. Study it's chequered history since 1994 and look at its intentions - they truly reflect the state of the nation as a whole and give a very good indication of what we can expect in the nation in the future.
The MPL may indeed have some merit - at least there has been and continues to be in-depth investigation at an international level of these possible merits.
The problem is that SAA will not even give the MPL as much consideration as it has been given in this very thread! SAA want black pilots, and they want them as quickly as they can get them, period. And if something called, eish, an MPL, can help with this, then, hau, that is the way to go, yes.
If there were a licence which enabled you to be an airliner pilot after gaining 200hrs in a taxi, you can bet your bottom dollar that SAA would be trying to implement it.
SAA is as a microcosm of the New South Africa. Study it's chequered history since 1994 and look at its intentions - they truly reflect the state of the nation as a whole and give a very good indication of what we can expect in the nation in the future.
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Basicaly end of story. In Chinas case cost/time is the driving factor. In SA's case race is the case.
In both safety will be sacrificed if it is judged that experience in actual real life flying can be forgone by virtual 'sit in box' let us 'simulate' real life conditions.
While I will immediatly say that simulation has been a major force in avaition safety I would also have to say that it may well be the opinion of many that some realtime experienc is vital.
Question is how long is a piece of string.
In both safety will be sacrificed if it is judged that experience in actual real life flying can be forgone by virtual 'sit in box' let us 'simulate' real life conditions.
While I will immediatly say that simulation has been a major force in avaition safety I would also have to say that it may well be the opinion of many that some realtime experienc is vital.
Question is how long is a piece of string.
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The attraction is 13 months from pavement to flight deck.
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I'm not a frequent poster on pprune, and must admit i've not read every single word of this thread (more of a scan job) however it seems to me that most of those who object to the MPL are one, or a combination of the following;
a. a begrudger. i.e "well, if i had to do it, why shouldn't everyone else"
b. someone with a vested interested in a CPL/IR flying school, because if the MPL comes in there will be less need for these, and their senecas, Be76's twinstars etc.....they will be largely cut out of the loop with the subsequent financial consequences.....(also the CAA examiners won't have their little opportunity to play "god" on test days....)
c. someone who is fearful and resistive of change, despite the world moving on around them
I struggled to get my CPL and struggled even more to get my IR. (No first times passes on either) but now, several years down the line, flying a 744 (and loving it) i've reflected on the system i went through and come to the following conclusions;
Its a system that has worked thus far, although the basic format has not changed in 50 years. However it is becoming more anacronistic as the licensing tests bear little resemblance to the real world of the airline pilot. I was told to memorize all the comms freqs, route details, app tracks etc for my IR test. You never do that in the real world as you go to different places and things change too! Also told to memorize the checklists...All a recipe for disaster in the real world, you might just forget something vital.
With respect, some of the previous posters seem to think airline pilots are training to become some sort of academic, we are not. We are professionals, but should be trained to do a job of work, no more, no less. We should be respected and earn a decent salary to reflect the skills and responsibility of the job,NOT passing a set of outdated and unnecessary tests......The sims have come a long way over the past 25 years, and i've seen sim engineers who can fly them a lot better than many TRI's....food for thought?
With regards to airmanship, i got my first airline (jet) position with 350 hrs on light aircraft. I did my type course with several who had 1000+ hrs on light aircraft, mainly instructing. They had no more insight/ability etc than I. Hours bashing the (same) circuit, & teaching a PPL (or indeed CPL) syllabus imparts little in the way of useful airmanship for an airline scenario. It was a steep learning curve for all of us, and MPL will be the same, not easier, but different, more relevent.
a. a begrudger. i.e "well, if i had to do it, why shouldn't everyone else"
b. someone with a vested interested in a CPL/IR flying school, because if the MPL comes in there will be less need for these, and their senecas, Be76's twinstars etc.....they will be largely cut out of the loop with the subsequent financial consequences.....(also the CAA examiners won't have their little opportunity to play "god" on test days....)
c. someone who is fearful and resistive of change, despite the world moving on around them
I struggled to get my CPL and struggled even more to get my IR. (No first times passes on either) but now, several years down the line, flying a 744 (and loving it) i've reflected on the system i went through and come to the following conclusions;
Its a system that has worked thus far, although the basic format has not changed in 50 years. However it is becoming more anacronistic as the licensing tests bear little resemblance to the real world of the airline pilot. I was told to memorize all the comms freqs, route details, app tracks etc for my IR test. You never do that in the real world as you go to different places and things change too! Also told to memorize the checklists...All a recipe for disaster in the real world, you might just forget something vital.
With respect, some of the previous posters seem to think airline pilots are training to become some sort of academic, we are not. We are professionals, but should be trained to do a job of work, no more, no less. We should be respected and earn a decent salary to reflect the skills and responsibility of the job,NOT passing a set of outdated and unnecessary tests......The sims have come a long way over the past 25 years, and i've seen sim engineers who can fly them a lot better than many TRI's....food for thought?
With regards to airmanship, i got my first airline (jet) position with 350 hrs on light aircraft. I did my type course with several who had 1000+ hrs on light aircraft, mainly instructing. They had no more insight/ability etc than I. Hours bashing the (same) circuit, & teaching a PPL (or indeed CPL) syllabus imparts little in the way of useful airmanship for an airline scenario. It was a steep learning curve for all of us, and MPL will be the same, not easier, but different, more relevent.
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MPL or any other modification that puts very inexperienced bums in the right hand seat makes a nonsence of CRM... if it's accepted that someone with very limited or no practical experience is an acceptable 2nd pilot for a passenger jet then why the emphasis on CRM.. ? What high time Capt is going to want to discuss the viability of continuing an approach through and around multiple cells to a partially contaminated runway with a kid who's sh*tting himself just looking out of the window, or is too inexperienced to recognise the threat in the first place. It will be a single crew decision to proceed or abort.
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MPL... what?!?
the whole concept is quite flawed. I actually am just finishing my training at a school wher the MPL is being implemented this year (Airline Academy of Australia, Archerfield).
We know these guys are just being trained to push buttons, they are trained to fly the autopilot and to program the gps. Fair enough that they learn the basic flying skills, however i would like to see how they cope with a complete electrical failure and pressurization failure at say FL250, and find their way back to the nearest airport using only DR techniques. Once the electricity disappears, the gps and fmc wont help you anymore.
I, of course did the typical 200 hour CPL+MEIR course, finding the road junctions and ****ty towns in the middle of whoop. I dont call myself a pro pilot but i can at least say that i believe if i was thrown in that situation i probably would be able to find the nearest airport whilst the newbie MPL F/O will probably still be trying to reboot the gps. SO there are pros and cons, just like with everything else
Just my two cents
We know these guys are just being trained to push buttons, they are trained to fly the autopilot and to program the gps. Fair enough that they learn the basic flying skills, however i would like to see how they cope with a complete electrical failure and pressurization failure at say FL250, and find their way back to the nearest airport using only DR techniques. Once the electricity disappears, the gps and fmc wont help you anymore.
I, of course did the typical 200 hour CPL+MEIR course, finding the road junctions and ****ty towns in the middle of whoop. I dont call myself a pro pilot but i can at least say that i believe if i was thrown in that situation i probably would be able to find the nearest airport whilst the newbie MPL F/O will probably still be trying to reboot the gps. SO there are pros and cons, just like with everything else
Just my two cents
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ehrr nice idea....but we do not carry VFR charts in our cockpits anyway!
Come on guys, 300 hours low level makes you a good low level pilot.
If you want to fly an airliner, you need a sim!
Come on guys, 300 hours low level makes you a good low level pilot.
If you want to fly an airliner, you need a sim!
Last edited by PENKO; 7th Dec 2006 at 08:14.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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npasque,
what makes you believe that a 200-hrs "real aircraft"-chap(esse) is going to cope any better whith loss of all elec?
I think there are actually 3 discussions in this thread:
1) SAAs (et als) plans to get pilots on the F/D fast. I don't think anybody in here have any doubts as to their motives...
2) Experience - I also doubt that anybody here can have a major disagreement over the value of that
3) How much experience is enough? Is 200 hrs real aircraft enough? Is an MPL enough? And will we be able to tell the difference between the two if we were to find ourselves on the F/D with one?
I think this 3rd discussion is where the real rub lies. If we are happy to sign in with a 200-hr pilot, should we be concerned about signing in with an MPL?
We know the qualities (and shortcomings) of the 200-hr crowd. Mostly a very intelligent, fast-learning and hard-working crowd. I doubt the MPL guys/gals will be any different (given the correct screening & training). I also know what they lack in experience - and doubt that the MPLs are going to be any different in that respect as well. If only the MPL was type-specific (and not
generic), at least the MPLs would start one up.
The MPL holds both great promise and a great many pitfalls. I hope that the guys now starting the MPL-courses all over the world will prove the doubters wrong.
what makes you believe that a 200-hrs "real aircraft"-chap(esse) is going to cope any better whith loss of all elec?
I think there are actually 3 discussions in this thread:
1) SAAs (et als) plans to get pilots on the F/D fast. I don't think anybody in here have any doubts as to their motives...
2) Experience - I also doubt that anybody here can have a major disagreement over the value of that
3) How much experience is enough? Is 200 hrs real aircraft enough? Is an MPL enough? And will we be able to tell the difference between the two if we were to find ourselves on the F/D with one?
I think this 3rd discussion is where the real rub lies. If we are happy to sign in with a 200-hr pilot, should we be concerned about signing in with an MPL?
We know the qualities (and shortcomings) of the 200-hr crowd. Mostly a very intelligent, fast-learning and hard-working crowd. I doubt the MPL guys/gals will be any different (given the correct screening & training). I also know what they lack in experience - and doubt that the MPLs are going to be any different in that respect as well. If only the MPL was type-specific (and not
generic), at least the MPLs would start one up.The MPL holds both great promise and a great many pitfalls. I hope that the guys now starting the MPL-courses all over the world will prove the doubters wrong.
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Er, Empty Cruise - The Mpl is type specific; it is also company specific. An FTO connot run a MPL course unless it has a contract with a main stream operator and trains the students using that company's SOPs. So, if the company goes bust just before Bloggs graduates, he's wasted his money. Another concern - since the licence will only permit our lad/ladette to fly as a F/O, how is the eventual transition to commander to be accomplished?
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The same as for any CPL I would guess! You cannot command a large passenger aircraft on a CPL, yet we all start of on one of them with a CPL (JAA). When you reach the hours, you do a sim et voila, le ATPL.
What was the other problem?
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EMpty Cruise,
in some respects it is somewhat unfair to us 200hr course pilots, due to the fact that we learnt to fly the hard way. We need to head out to god knows where and rack up 1000 hours for almost no money. Then come along these guys, sit their MPL program, learn to use a gps and hop in the right seat of a 747 earning maybe $60,000USD? Sorry but i dont quite see how that is fair, and yes i have read all the posts in this thread. I understand everything that is here. As i said before, there are great advantages and disadvantages to this.
Tell me this, how would you feel if you knew the F/O had 200hrs and the captain has just passed out? I would be a little anxious myself. Not because he cant fly, by god he can, but he lacks the experience and most probably has not dealt with any real life emergenicies before. He will sh*t himself.
in some respects it is somewhat unfair to us 200hr course pilots, due to the fact that we learnt to fly the hard way. We need to head out to god knows where and rack up 1000 hours for almost no money. Then come along these guys, sit their MPL program, learn to use a gps and hop in the right seat of a 747 earning maybe $60,000USD? Sorry but i dont quite see how that is fair, and yes i have read all the posts in this thread. I understand everything that is here. As i said before, there are great advantages and disadvantages to this.
Tell me this, how would you feel if you knew the F/O had 200hrs and the captain has just passed out? I would be a little anxious myself. Not because he cant fly, by god he can, but he lacks the experience and most probably has not dealt with any real life emergenicies before. He will sh*t himself.
Last edited by npasque; 7th Dec 2006 at 10:56. Reason: spelling
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in some respects it is somewhat unfair to us 200hr course pilots, due to the fact that we learnt to fly the hard way. We need to head out to god knows where and rack up 1000 hours for almost no money. Then come along these guys, sit their MPL program, learn to use a gps and hop in the right seat of a 747 earning maybe $60,000USD?
Tell me this, how would you feel if you knew the F/O had 200hrs and the captain has just passed out? I would be a little anxious myself. Not because he cant fly, by god he can, but he lacks the experience and most probably has not dealt with any real life emergenicies before.
Better suited for the situation? Certainly.
Fair? Fairness has never entered the equation. If 1000 hours bashing around the country in a light aircraft is unnecessary, as many trainers believe, why bother.
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I think a lot of people out there are missing the point of the argument that we have against these shortcuts to stardom. Whether the low-time pilot has an MPL background or the more conventional training, none of it is worth a monkeys toss to the poor guy in the left hand seat who has to shoulder the entire load...
anyone who has either very few hours ( < 1000 ) or relatively meaningless hours ( ab initio flight instruction ) is of very little practical use to a captain other than to play with the FMS and the gear handle.... critical decision making ability comes with hard-time hours in the log book... that's why we bother to keep a log, it's relevant to experience... these entry level candidates should ideally be put through a second officer training program before ever getting to first officer status, that adds up to a useful pilot... dismissing this obvious safety oriented program just because it doesn't suit the bean-counters is counter productive and will ultimately lead to crewing weaknesses that will be damaging to our health. CAA take note... when the AAIB identify lack of crew experience as a primary cause of an accident I for one will be hoping that the law suits for damages encompass individuals at Gatwick.
anyone who has either very few hours ( < 1000 ) or relatively meaningless hours ( ab initio flight instruction ) is of very little practical use to a captain other than to play with the FMS and the gear handle.... critical decision making ability comes with hard-time hours in the log book... that's why we bother to keep a log, it's relevant to experience... these entry level candidates should ideally be put through a second officer training program before ever getting to first officer status, that adds up to a useful pilot... dismissing this obvious safety oriented program just because it doesn't suit the bean-counters is counter productive and will ultimately lead to crewing weaknesses that will be damaging to our health. CAA take note... when the AAIB identify lack of crew experience as a primary cause of an accident I for one will be hoping that the law suits for damages encompass individuals at Gatwick.