Multi-crew Pilots Licence (formerly: South African Airway's plan to get co-pilots)
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RUN... Run away!!!
If this does come into force there will be no chance I'll be flying with them ever again. Nor will anyone I can influence... This is Affirm. Act. Gone BAD BAD BAD 
Oh and now I have to change my Nick Name
Oh and now I have to change my Nick Name
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Those who affirm that "real" flying skills don't matter seem to conveniently forget that:
1/ For all the sim training in the world, learning to use (or should I say monitor) systems, all the whizz-bang, flashy electronics can (and occasionally do) fail. What are you left with then? Basic flying skills, stick and rudder stuff going sometimes as far back as single-engine CPL.
2/ Sims are great. Airline-type CAT D sims are even better. They get more realistic as time goes by. But they are a training help, NOT a substitute to actual flying. Doing, say, an NDB hold on a stormy night in a Seminole/Duchess/Seneca/Cessna 310 etc. IS training for heavy turboprop/jet operations.
3/ A nearby FTO's Chief Ground Instructor recently wrote to a number of European airlines asking them their opinion regarding the Multi Pilot Licence. I saw their answers: most (they include regionals, cargo outfits, "legacy" and low-cost airlines) aren't interested in the MPL and are not willing to contemplate it as part of their recruiting plans.
4/ Most airlines work on a seniority basis. How do you think would current FOs, who have trained under the traditional system, view MPL-trained newbies that would be seen not only as lacking real flying experience, but also as jumping the queue?
5/ To use a common comparison, would you let a surgeon that would only have practiced on simulators perform brain/heart surgery or any other difficult surgical procedure either on you or a loved one? Methinks not.
Cheers
1/ For all the sim training in the world, learning to use (or should I say monitor) systems, all the whizz-bang, flashy electronics can (and occasionally do) fail. What are you left with then? Basic flying skills, stick and rudder stuff going sometimes as far back as single-engine CPL.
2/ Sims are great. Airline-type CAT D sims are even better. They get more realistic as time goes by. But they are a training help, NOT a substitute to actual flying. Doing, say, an NDB hold on a stormy night in a Seminole/Duchess/Seneca/Cessna 310 etc. IS training for heavy turboprop/jet operations.
3/ A nearby FTO's Chief Ground Instructor recently wrote to a number of European airlines asking them their opinion regarding the Multi Pilot Licence. I saw their answers: most (they include regionals, cargo outfits, "legacy" and low-cost airlines) aren't interested in the MPL and are not willing to contemplate it as part of their recruiting plans.
4/ Most airlines work on a seniority basis. How do you think would current FOs, who have trained under the traditional system, view MPL-trained newbies that would be seen not only as lacking real flying experience, but also as jumping the queue?
5/ To use a common comparison, would you let a surgeon that would only have practiced on simulators perform brain/heart surgery or any other difficult surgical procedure either on you or a loved one? Methinks not.
Cheers
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Doing, say, an NDB hold on a stormy night in a Seminole/Duchess/Seneca/Cessna 310 etc. IS training for heavy turboprop/jet operations.
I am fortunate(?) enough to now fly a modern jet (B777) but I learnt my trade on military pistons/turboprops flying around southern Africa. NDBs were the norm, and sometimes in ****ty conditions.
I graduated to large military jets in Europe but they were old and still needed a lot of 'stick & rudder' work.
Now flying an all-electric (almost) jet and what surprises me is that if you suggest having a go at something manually, without using all that FMS bollocks (which, frankly, often gets in the way of safe flying becuase guys are head down way too much), you get some real sideways glances by the folk who have little real flying under their belts.
That concerns me greatly because it means there is no practsie of the basics. Way too much faffing around twiddling knobs and pushing buttons instead of getting to grips with flying the approach (whats it doing now syndrome).
I acknowledge that young pilots making their way in their careers now are seeing less of the old fashioned steam-driven way of doing things ..... but that must mean there is a need to emphasise basic flying skills ..... 'stick & rudder' .... if not disaster surely awaits. MPL is a disaster waiting to strike, but it cannot be stopped .... the world is run by short-term accountants. Profit today ..... disiasters down the line are someone elses problem!
I graduated to large military jets in Europe but they were old and still needed a lot of 'stick & rudder' work.
Now flying an all-electric (almost) jet and what surprises me is that if you suggest having a go at something manually, without using all that FMS bollocks (which, frankly, often gets in the way of safe flying becuase guys are head down way too much), you get some real sideways glances by the folk who have little real flying under their belts.
That concerns me greatly because it means there is no practsie of the basics. Way too much faffing around twiddling knobs and pushing buttons instead of getting to grips with flying the approach (whats it doing now syndrome).
I acknowledge that young pilots making their way in their careers now are seeing less of the old fashioned steam-driven way of doing things ..... but that must mean there is a need to emphasise basic flying skills ..... 'stick & rudder' .... if not disaster surely awaits. MPL is a disaster waiting to strike, but it cannot be stopped .... the world is run by short-term accountants. Profit today ..... disiasters down the line are someone elses problem!
Plastic PPRuNer
Ahhhhhhh! "Character building..." as one of my old chiefs used to say.
As Chuck Yeager says, you gotta be afraid to panic (you can puke AFTERWARDS)
No sim will ever teach you that - and if you can't do it then you shouldn't be doing it.
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If SAA are really keen to save money they need not screw around with this nonsence... just fly the a/c single crew... 'cause that's what this amounts to.
I suspect though that the cost saving is secondary to seeing faces in the cockpit with a low reflectivity index... quickly... Very dangerous to have unmotivated people in the cockpit so why not let nature take its course and start streaming those who show the right qualities and dedication to the task in order that they are ready for the full ATPL course when of the right age... oh ! er... sorry... isn't that the way it's always been done ?
I suspect though that the cost saving is secondary to seeing faces in the cockpit with a low reflectivity index... quickly... Very dangerous to have unmotivated people in the cockpit so why not let nature take its course and start streaming those who show the right qualities and dedication to the task in order that they are ready for the full ATPL course when of the right age... oh ! er... sorry... isn't that the way it's always been done ?
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A bit of education for the SAA bashers
JAA's multi-crew pilot licence standards to be ready next month
Kerry Ezard, London (20Oct06, 13:03 GMT, 457 words)
Europe’s Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) is expecting to release its own set of standards for the first version of the ICAO-sanctioned multi-crew pilot licence (MPL) on 15 November, but the International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) remains concerned about the implementation of the new programme.
Speaking at the recent Royal Aeronautical Society’s Flight Crew Training: Meeting Tomorrow’s Challenges conference in London, JAA licensing director Fergus Woods said the MPL is “coming to its fruition point after four years of work”. He adds that “everything should go through” on the JAA’s side on 15 November, while ICAO’s MPL standards are expected to be available on 23 November.
The MPL requires student pilots to be trained as part of a crew of two, the aim being that the student will be able to begin professional flying as an airline co-pilot. Earlier this year, IFALPA voiced concerns that the reduced training times associated with the new licence could mean that first officers lack the necessary flying skills to take over in the event of a captain becoming incapacitated.
IFALPA still has concerns over the implementation of the MPL, and notes that certain questions remain unanswered concerning some of the scientific data involved in putting together the licence. But while Woods admits that the JAA will “need to improve on version one of the MPL in the future”, he says a step-by-step approach to its implementation should act as a compromise to “those who are skeptical of the simulation approach”.
Training for the MPL will be broken down into four phases, the first of which focuses on core flying skills. This initial phase will involve “less than 140h but more than 60h” of flight time, most of which will be airborne, with up to 5h taking place on a flight and navigation procedure trainer (FNPT I).
The intermediate and advanced phases will include air traffic control (ATC) simulation training, for which Woods says the technology is available and guidance material is currently being published. “ATC simulation should be introduced at the early stage of implementation,” he says.
Future versions of the MPL will require a “fine-tuning” of the feedback process, as well as improved instructor requirements. A competency-based approach to training and testing theoretical knowledge is also on the cards for future versions. “We see the need to change to a competency-based approach but this is a big step and we couldn’t fit it into the current timescale,” says Woods.
A key feature of the MPL is that it will enable pilots to take the “right-hand seat” on an aircraft after 240h of training, notes the licensing director. He adds that one of the key aims of the licence is to “train to proficiency, rather than test to destruction”.
Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
JAA's multi-crew pilot licence standards to be ready next month
Kerry Ezard, London (20Oct06, 13:03 GMT, 457 words)
Europe’s Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) is expecting to release its own set of standards for the first version of the ICAO-sanctioned multi-crew pilot licence (MPL) on 15 November, but the International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) remains concerned about the implementation of the new programme.
Speaking at the recent Royal Aeronautical Society’s Flight Crew Training: Meeting Tomorrow’s Challenges conference in London, JAA licensing director Fergus Woods said the MPL is “coming to its fruition point after four years of work”. He adds that “everything should go through” on the JAA’s side on 15 November, while ICAO’s MPL standards are expected to be available on 23 November.
The MPL requires student pilots to be trained as part of a crew of two, the aim being that the student will be able to begin professional flying as an airline co-pilot. Earlier this year, IFALPA voiced concerns that the reduced training times associated with the new licence could mean that first officers lack the necessary flying skills to take over in the event of a captain becoming incapacitated.
IFALPA still has concerns over the implementation of the MPL, and notes that certain questions remain unanswered concerning some of the scientific data involved in putting together the licence. But while Woods admits that the JAA will “need to improve on version one of the MPL in the future”, he says a step-by-step approach to its implementation should act as a compromise to “those who are skeptical of the simulation approach”.
Training for the MPL will be broken down into four phases, the first of which focuses on core flying skills. This initial phase will involve “less than 140h but more than 60h” of flight time, most of which will be airborne, with up to 5h taking place on a flight and navigation procedure trainer (FNPT I).
The intermediate and advanced phases will include air traffic control (ATC) simulation training, for which Woods says the technology is available and guidance material is currently being published. “ATC simulation should be introduced at the early stage of implementation,” he says.
Future versions of the MPL will require a “fine-tuning” of the feedback process, as well as improved instructor requirements. A competency-based approach to training and testing theoretical knowledge is also on the cards for future versions. “We see the need to change to a competency-based approach but this is a big step and we couldn’t fit it into the current timescale,” says Woods.
A key feature of the MPL is that it will enable pilots to take the “right-hand seat” on an aircraft after 240h of training, notes the licensing director. He adds that one of the key aims of the licence is to “train to proficiency, rather than test to destruction”.
Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
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Multi-Crew Pilot Licence (MPL) Madness
Forgive me for butting my big nose into this debate if you will.
Although not a Pilot (as yet) I am a Ship Master and have seen exactly the same style of lunacy in the shipping industry. A few vested interests push for a shiny "New" training regime and promise that standards will be maintained and that the level of training is only "different" but of an equal standard to the status quo.
Total Horse*&^% as we all know.
Don't let the Aviation industry make the same mistakes that the Shipping industry made 15 years ago!
I recently sailed with a supposed "1st Officer" who could barely alter course on his own. His "International" Certificate of Competency is theoretically the same as a European one.....
This crazy spiral downwards puts even more pressure on the Captain and means that it is very easy indeed to get fatigued and make mistakes - 20-22 hour days are no exception. If this MPL training system really "takes off", unfortunatly incidents will be on the way as there is no substitute for good training and plenty of experience. I will not be flying SA that is for sure.
Guess who will get the blame when it all goes Tango Uniform onboard??
Although not a Pilot (as yet) I am a Ship Master and have seen exactly the same style of lunacy in the shipping industry. A few vested interests push for a shiny "New" training regime and promise that standards will be maintained and that the level of training is only "different" but of an equal standard to the status quo.
Total Horse*&^% as we all know.
Don't let the Aviation industry make the same mistakes that the Shipping industry made 15 years ago!
I recently sailed with a supposed "1st Officer" who could barely alter course on his own. His "International" Certificate of Competency is theoretically the same as a European one.....
This crazy spiral downwards puts even more pressure on the Captain and means that it is very easy indeed to get fatigued and make mistakes - 20-22 hour days are no exception. If this MPL training system really "takes off", unfortunatly incidents will be on the way as there is no substitute for good training and plenty of experience. I will not be flying SA that is for sure.
Guess who will get the blame when it all goes Tango Uniform onboard??
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I am not an airline pilot, only a lowly PPL who tries to maintain a "Professional" standard of flying. But even I know that in order to get into the position of being trained as a NASA Shuttle pilot on one of their simulators, that turning up to NASA's door with zero hours (or even a PPL, gasp!!, horror!!) is not going to qualify me to fly a Space Shuttle RHS, regardless my ethnic background....
...One believes they probably have just a tad more flight experience
D O'L.
Have you seen the FLYING qualifications of these Shuttle pilots ? Mostly Test Pilots I think you'll find. Not just pilots already but exceptional.
And just to add a few coals to the fire ...........a very experienced Training Captain pal of mine came back the other night after a Line Check on a new "graduate" FO. He looked absolutely whacked. "What's up, mate?", I asked. "I've been flying on my f**king own again", he said.
Have you seen the FLYING qualifications of these Shuttle pilots ? Mostly Test Pilots I think you'll find. Not just pilots already but exceptional.
And just to add a few coals to the fire ...........a very experienced Training Captain pal of mine came back the other night after a Line Check on a new "graduate" FO. He looked absolutely whacked. "What's up, mate?", I asked. "I've been flying on my f**king own again", he said.
Paxing All Over The World
“We see the need to change to a competency-based approach but this is a big step and we couldn’t fit it into the current timescale,” says Woods.
In a TOTALLY unrelated field, the training has also moved over to 'competencies' and the results are dire. Fifteen years ago, for a specialist job, myself and two colleagues wrote the qualities needed and the skills that must be acquired onto a single peice of A4 paper. Now they have been rewritten by a special consultant (£ x Thousands) and cover 34 pages. Meanwhile, the people emerging from the training are not a patch on the previous candidates.
In all areas, companies want to reduce costs and boost productivity and will use any words and methods to do that. Whenever you hear the MD of a company say things, "Everything wil continue as before" "We are moving into a new era of high standards" and "Your jobs are safe", is the time to start updating your CV.
Concise Oxford Dictionary 10th Edition
competence (also competency)
· n.
1 the quality or extent of being competent.
2 Linguistics a person’s subconscious knowledge of the rules governing the formation of speech in their first language. Often contrasted with performance.
3 dated an income large enough to live on.
I write as a non pilot and 50% South African and feel very sad and worried about this development.
Last edited by PAXboy; 23rd Oct 2006 at 22:18. Reason: spelling
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It sounds awful
This sounds truly awful. I am just about to start my career in aviation and I hope this project is not repeated elsewhere. I don't want to sit there for hours looking at dials and screens and making the odd course or alt adjustment. I can continue doing that in the military for more money and less hassle! I want to take-off, fly and land the bugger! Hopefully not a sign of things to come. My boss told me today that he reckoned that airliners would not have a human crew in about 40 years. Again, I hope not!
This road of thought is more fitting to John Cleese in a Monty Python skit than flying a commercial jet in weather with problems.
Absolute fools.
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Go on - show of hands - who does not feel the pressure in the sim to perform; who does not find it realistic as an assesment of their handling skills in an emergency?
Face it - once established, this debate will go the same way as ZFT conversion courses. Yes, I can well see airlines abusing it, but the intent was pure - brought in to raise skills of low-time pilots in a jet environment. Are your opinions really ones with backgrounds in training, or ones of nostalgia for "the way things were done". Face it - times move on.
Even some ex-mil pilots struggle with moving to airline ops, as many of us will know. Some guys who spend hours bashing grass strips in singles and twin piston aircraft will gain a lot, but fact is that most will not, and most will not experience the flight conditions consistent with airline ops.
I quite agree on the diversity of backgrounds however.
Just an edit to add - I agree too that their use on longhaul without real landing experience appears equally foolish, although consider that CX and others use SOs for exactly this purpose.
Last edited by Lucifer; 23rd Oct 2006 at 23:24.
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Passengers on the other hand will not ever board something without a pilot.
Last edited by Lucifer; 23rd Oct 2006 at 20:07.
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The thought had occurred to me....
I was merely pointing out that some people have strange ideas.