Capt Refuses To Fly 'unsafe' Onur Air A321!!!
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Or use this direct link to the .pdf:
http://www.safetyboard.nl/publicatio...d_take-off.pdf
(Order of Google results can be different the next day, for different countries, languages, etc.)
http://www.safetyboard.nl/publicatio...d_take-off.pdf
(Order of Google results can be different the next day, for different countries, languages, etc.)
Cunning Artificer
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We don't have the precise nature of the problem with this aircraft, the captain's views on the matter nor the AOC holder's. There's been lots of mention of the "Minimum Equipment List." Are we getting confused about the DDG here? Another document to consider is the Company Operations Manual. Was this a technical problem or an operations problem?
While the DDG is covered by commander's discretion, the flight operations management can, and frequently does, disagree with an individual Captain. In the event that such disagreement cannot be resolved, management can at its discretion, assign another captain to operate a flight. While an aircraft captain does have discretion, the AOC holder's discretion can override it. All we can tell from the story given here, is that is exactly what happened. Any discussion of the rights and wrongs of the matter must, as in the case of the Groningen incident, await the facts.
While the DDG is covered by commander's discretion, the flight operations management can, and frequently does, disagree with an individual Captain. In the event that such disagreement cannot be resolved, management can at its discretion, assign another captain to operate a flight. While an aircraft captain does have discretion, the AOC holder's discretion can override it. All we can tell from the story given here, is that is exactly what happened. Any discussion of the rights and wrongs of the matter must, as in the case of the Groningen incident, await the facts.
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Yes I Can Definitely Say That Many Ex T@rkish Milit@ry Pilots Are Incompetent, Overconfident And Unsafe.
The Captain On That Flight Is German/turkish And Has A Bad Reputation. His Decision Was Right But The Way Of Doing It Not.
The Captain On That Flight Is German/turkish And Has A Bad Reputation. His Decision Was Right But The Way Of Doing It Not.
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If this is true, then even without any problem with the acft, I (as a PAX) would consider unsafe to fly. And in general I would consider unsafe any airline for which the above quote may be true...
For sure they won't winn at court.. But as we are speaking about onur and crashes there is one over run correct. So what does this mean? Look around what about crashes Air france 340, klm-panam 747-200 klm, ect. Even qantass has an over run with an 747 so does this mean they are un safe???
Since any responsible airline would try learn from these mistakes, I find it highly worrying to see an apparant Onur Air pilot now trying to downplay this nearly fatal incident by diverting the attention to other mishaps by other airlines. Safety begins by acknowledging your own fallibility, and hiding behind others is definitely not a good sign in that respect!
Bbus, I really hope the other 248 pilots at your airline will have a more professional attitude regarding this issue. Or else maybe the problems at Onur Air are more deeply rooted than I suspected.
There's a report on this incident in today's Daily Telegraph, as if it has just happened. Talk about current news! I wonder if they got it off pprune as there are no extra details.
"British holiday makers waiting to return home from Turkey were told by their pilot "Do not fly with this plane. It is not safe"
The 180 tourists were about to take off for Bristol from aAntalya with Onur Air when they heard a strange noise from the engines.
They said the captain of the Airbus A321 came on to the intercom and said "I am resigning. Do not fly with this plane. It is not safe. Do not fly with Onur Air." He then walked off the plane. An alternative flight was arranged.
The aircraft had been chartered by the travel company Goldtrail, which has apologised to the passengers. It said: "The employee in question was serving his notice. It was not a major fault because the aircraft is still flying".
Why on earth would the Torygraph publish this story so long after it happened?
"British holiday makers waiting to return home from Turkey were told by their pilot "Do not fly with this plane. It is not safe"
The 180 tourists were about to take off for Bristol from aAntalya with Onur Air when they heard a strange noise from the engines.
They said the captain of the Airbus A321 came on to the intercom and said "I am resigning. Do not fly with this plane. It is not safe. Do not fly with Onur Air." He then walked off the plane. An alternative flight was arranged.
The aircraft had been chartered by the travel company Goldtrail, which has apologised to the passengers. It said: "The employee in question was serving his notice. It was not a major fault because the aircraft is still flying".
Why on earth would the Torygraph publish this story so long after it happened?
Thread Starter
That Groningen report reminds some years ago at AMS when the Dutch CAA also banned Egyptian Luxor Air after the crew of a MadDog failed to perform a correct weight&balance report
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He should have made sure his passengers and crew were safely off the aircraft and then he could have made his dramatic farewell speech to his charges. No Tony award for the captains performance.
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Interview
The Captain gave an interview to a turkish newspaper (Millet). Maybe someone has the link and can translate it for us. I believe this would clear a few points.
As I understand it he already left the airplane and than turned around and talked to the pax to make sure no other crew will accept the airplane and fly it.
The nature of the defect is also explained. I hope someone can translate for us.
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2006/09/27/son/sontur18.asp
As I understand it he already left the airplane and than turned around and talked to the pax to make sure no other crew will accept the airplane and fly it.
The nature of the defect is also explained. I hope someone can translate for us.
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2006/09/27/son/sontur18.asp
Last edited by MaxBlow; 27th Sep 2006 at 12:39. Reason: link added
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Strange that he starts flying the next day with Inter airlines! So he was not fired he was just sitting out his time with onur air and fedup that he had to work so much and frustrated that he not working for an major airline. Well it won't be different at inter airlines. They sort off pilots so also there he will be the only safe pilot and the rest will be unsafe. You really think they make us fly if the aircraft is not according the MEL? Nobody ever had a problem after starting engine's and taxi out you have a problem and taxi back in, does this mean the aircraft is unsafe? yes/no that's why you come back to get it fixed by maintance.
Greetz
Greetz
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facts about Onur Air and identification of Mr. Bbus
We all remember one company names Onur Air which was banded of flying into europe for technical resons.
I like to point out and clear a few facts.Fact is that Mr. Bbus is not an Airbus driver, his name is Mr. Rauf Gertz, he is the press speechman of Onur Air.He and his boss Mr. Sabettin Bolukcu opened a campain against this captain.Mr. bolukcu gave a dinner 2 days ago to the press peolpe.Both are spreading lies on a web page names www. airporthaber.com,if you look carefully you easly will find out that Mr. Bolukcu is a writter for this page.I ask now what a neutral plattform,or.Thats the way how business is made in Turkey.They are tying to do the same things as they were banded to fly,the like to show this case like a europe against turkey thing.They manipulate the turkish civil authorities and the turkish pilot association is assisting them in this propaganda game.Because this captain is not a military pilot and was not a member of TALPA.( shame on them)
Mr. Gerz leave the real pilots form stay away of real pilots we don`t need your manipulation in this matter.We are not a part of your game and never will be. We can judge by ourselfs.
I like to point out and clear a few facts.Fact is that Mr. Bbus is not an Airbus driver, his name is Mr. Rauf Gertz, he is the press speechman of Onur Air.He and his boss Mr. Sabettin Bolukcu opened a campain against this captain.Mr. bolukcu gave a dinner 2 days ago to the press peolpe.Both are spreading lies on a web page names www. airporthaber.com,if you look carefully you easly will find out that Mr. Bolukcu is a writter for this page.I ask now what a neutral plattform,or.Thats the way how business is made in Turkey.They are tying to do the same things as they were banded to fly,the like to show this case like a europe against turkey thing.They manipulate the turkish civil authorities and the turkish pilot association is assisting them in this propaganda game.Because this captain is not a military pilot and was not a member of TALPA.( shame on them)
Mr. Gerz leave the real pilots form stay away of real pilots we don`t need your manipulation in this matter.We are not a part of your game and never will be. We can judge by ourselfs.
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As requested by MaxBlow. Translation only basic, wife (Turkish) is an engineer but knows nothing about A/C or flight. Many moons ago I was PPL+ME+IFR. We are not translators! Don’t forget source was a newspaper.
From Captain
180 SLF on board. No1 engine stopped with a loud noise, a/c on ground. Tech log indicated same problem had happened before. Engineers didn’t take problem seriously. APU was u/s, No2 eng was running while repairs carried out to APU. While APU being repaired, No2 eng shut down without command from anyone. APU repaired by engineers but not proven in flight. Engineers wouldn’t take seriously problems with either No1 or No2 engines.
No1 from cabin told Capt No1 engine also failed on inbound leg. Tech team said all was OK. He again requested Tech team look at No1 engine, but they said all was OK. Capt asked if they could guarantee No2 engine would not shut down in flight – they could not. TIP (can’t translate, could be chief pilot or chief engineer) was called and Capt told to “fly it!” Capt told TIP – bye, I’m leaving Onur Airs. Capt left plane and walked 5m up jetway. Capt returned to a/c to make announcement to SLF, he considered a/c unfit to fly, but another pilot might be assigned to take the flight. Capt also said he considered dangerous decisions were being made in this company. Capt made announcement because he was concerned for SLF + cabin crew safety.
It was not a pre-planned event, he had not considered resigning from Onur Airs until this incident. Capt has 15 years experience, 9 years as Capt. 11,400hoursTT. Holds licensees from Germany, China & USA. Member of German pilots association. The company the Capt changed employment to has since agreed to his departure, as the unwelcome publicity was damaging the new companies name. Capt stated he would be looking for other employment as Capt, worldwide.
From Onur Airs
Capt found job with another company before he resigned. Onur Airs searched databases (unclear what databases) for psychological state of Capt. This event did not happen as reported by Capt. During and after the event no failures were found with a/c. This a/c continues to fly without problems since this event. Capt could have requested another a/c which makes Onur Airs think other circumstances caused Capt to act in this way. Capt states he had not intended to leave Onur Airs, but now works for another company. His resignation was to the SLF, not to Onur Airs. Capt comments are unbalanced and wrong, this is collaborated by all cabin crew, engineers and all other personnel directly involved. Despite holding dual Nationality, Turkish/German, he is taking the matter to the German authorities and not the Turkish authorities, which Onur Airs perceive as a threat.
From Captain
180 SLF on board. No1 engine stopped with a loud noise, a/c on ground. Tech log indicated same problem had happened before. Engineers didn’t take problem seriously. APU was u/s, No2 eng was running while repairs carried out to APU. While APU being repaired, No2 eng shut down without command from anyone. APU repaired by engineers but not proven in flight. Engineers wouldn’t take seriously problems with either No1 or No2 engines.
No1 from cabin told Capt No1 engine also failed on inbound leg. Tech team said all was OK. He again requested Tech team look at No1 engine, but they said all was OK. Capt asked if they could guarantee No2 engine would not shut down in flight – they could not. TIP (can’t translate, could be chief pilot or chief engineer) was called and Capt told to “fly it!” Capt told TIP – bye, I’m leaving Onur Airs. Capt left plane and walked 5m up jetway. Capt returned to a/c to make announcement to SLF, he considered a/c unfit to fly, but another pilot might be assigned to take the flight. Capt also said he considered dangerous decisions were being made in this company. Capt made announcement because he was concerned for SLF + cabin crew safety.
It was not a pre-planned event, he had not considered resigning from Onur Airs until this incident. Capt has 15 years experience, 9 years as Capt. 11,400hoursTT. Holds licensees from Germany, China & USA. Member of German pilots association. The company the Capt changed employment to has since agreed to his departure, as the unwelcome publicity was damaging the new companies name. Capt stated he would be looking for other employment as Capt, worldwide.
From Onur Airs
Capt found job with another company before he resigned. Onur Airs searched databases (unclear what databases) for psychological state of Capt. This event did not happen as reported by Capt. During and after the event no failures were found with a/c. This a/c continues to fly without problems since this event. Capt could have requested another a/c which makes Onur Airs think other circumstances caused Capt to act in this way. Capt states he had not intended to leave Onur Airs, but now works for another company. His resignation was to the SLF, not to Onur Airs. Capt comments are unbalanced and wrong, this is collaborated by all cabin crew, engineers and all other personnel directly involved. Despite holding dual Nationality, Turkish/German, he is taking the matter to the German authorities and not the Turkish authorities, which Onur Airs perceive as a threat.
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Onur Air / the case facts
Dear Sirs,
The captain ,who made this decision has 11300 hours ttl.The skipper flew B737 all series B747-400 and A321 ( including 2500 hrs on Airbus ).The a7c was given to the crew with APU in the hold item.The hold items inthis company are always full ,they use full extensions and after the extension time they swapp the the parts between aircrafts.They are not interseted to order parts.The pilots are forced to enter mailfunctions only on the return flight to the base,so that they can right ,SYSTEM TESTED CHECKED FOUND NORMAL,this words you can find every where on their TLB`s.
Fact is this aircaft was started with external power and air sources.ENG 2 was started first after the connections where taken away during crossbleed start ENG 2 stalled and came to stop.Since the aircraft does not have an APU back up everything became dark.NO ECAM INDICATIONS AVAILABLE.
GPU was connected again and technical staff started to run an FADEC test.
Then they started ENG 2 again and released the aircraft for flight.Mean while
The captain ,who made this decision has 11300 hours ttl.The skipper flew B737 all series B747-400 and A321 ( including 2500 hrs on Airbus ).The a7c was given to the crew with APU in the hold item.The hold items inthis company are always full ,they use full extensions and after the extension time they swapp the the parts between aircrafts.They are not interseted to order parts.The pilots are forced to enter mailfunctions only on the return flight to the base,so that they can right ,SYSTEM TESTED CHECKED FOUND NORMAL,this words you can find every where on their TLB`s.
Fact is this aircaft was started with external power and air sources.ENG 2 was started first after the connections where taken away during crossbleed start ENG 2 stalled and came to stop.Since the aircraft does not have an APU back up everything became dark.NO ECAM INDICATIONS AVAILABLE.
GPU was connected again and technical staff started to run an FADEC test.
Then they started ENG 2 again and released the aircraft for flight.Mean while
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Onur Air / the case facts
The Crew Asked About If This Happened Before Again And They Find Out On The Old Tlb That 10 Days Ago Eng 1 Stopped During Taxi.there Some Mailfunction You Can Not Detect On The Fadec Test.i Think This Case Stinks.
It Is A General Procedure In This Company To Swapp Mailfunctions.
Why The Annocement?because It Is A Fact Also That If One Skipper Refuses To Accept An No Go Aircraft Mailfunction Or Out Of Limit Take Off Weights ;within 1 Hours There Will Be An Company Minded Kamikaze Pilot Available.the Captain Could Just Resighn And Leave But To Leave The Passers Behind With An Engine That Could Stop During Rotation To Is Not Some Body Who React As Safety Minded Pilot.many Turkish Pilots Have Problems To Find Jobs Due To Wellknown Resons.with The Salary In Turkey Living Standards They Prefer To Keep Silend.
It Is A General Procedure In This Company To Swapp Mailfunctions.
Why The Annocement?because It Is A Fact Also That If One Skipper Refuses To Accept An No Go Aircraft Mailfunction Or Out Of Limit Take Off Weights ;within 1 Hours There Will Be An Company Minded Kamikaze Pilot Available.the Captain Could Just Resighn And Leave But To Leave The Passers Behind With An Engine That Could Stop During Rotation To Is Not Some Body Who React As Safety Minded Pilot.many Turkish Pilots Have Problems To Find Jobs Due To Wellknown Resons.with The Salary In Turkey Living Standards They Prefer To Keep Silend.
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onur
Well Swing over,
The name is wrong and I'm just a pilot like you. This week I flew the aircraft in question and have to say there was nothing on the HIL and I saw in the book and the entry of that CPT and it did not fly that same day but the next day to IKA so we are no kamikaze pilots. So the pilot has a problem with the aircraft during the taxi out and he returns to the gate like this never happens any where else, still does this means the aircraft is completely unsafe? So you get it fixed or get an other aircraft. The way this CPT did his job is I have no problems with but the annocement I don't think this was very unprofessional and also it was more or less his last day working in onur air because he would start soon with Inter airlines, so resign? He already did
Also it seems you know that CPT well knowing he total hours ect. Maybe you are the CPT.
What ever you say, you really think I would still be working here as what you say is true. There many jobs for 320 rated pilots, I even got a call from Etihad this week well I prefer to stay here!
See yeah…
The name is wrong and I'm just a pilot like you. This week I flew the aircraft in question and have to say there was nothing on the HIL and I saw in the book and the entry of that CPT and it did not fly that same day but the next day to IKA so we are no kamikaze pilots. So the pilot has a problem with the aircraft during the taxi out and he returns to the gate like this never happens any where else, still does this means the aircraft is completely unsafe? So you get it fixed or get an other aircraft. The way this CPT did his job is I have no problems with but the annocement I don't think this was very unprofessional and also it was more or less his last day working in onur air because he would start soon with Inter airlines, so resign? He already did
Also it seems you know that CPT well knowing he total hours ect. Maybe you are the CPT.
What ever you say, you really think I would still be working here as what you say is true. There many jobs for 320 rated pilots, I even got a call from Etihad this week well I prefer to stay here!
See yeah…
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So the pilot has a problem with the aircraft during the taxi out and he returns to th
So the pilot has a problem with the aircraft during the taxi out and he returns to the gate like this never happens any where else
the problem mr was that eng1 stopped suddenly as like it was with same aírcraft and this time eng2.you guys tink realy you could manipulate everybody.I AM PROUDE TO KNOW THIS CAPTAIN.can you look to the mirrow,and what you see ?????
You are not a pilot Bbus because you don`t react like one.God luck with your banded company.We in europe think different,welcome to the EU.
the problem mr was that eng1 stopped suddenly as like it was with same aírcraft and this time eng2.you guys tink realy you could manipulate everybody.I AM PROUDE TO KNOW THIS CAPTAIN.can you look to the mirrow,and what you see ?????You are not a pilot Bbus because you don`t react like one.God luck with your banded company.We in europe think different,welcome to the EU.