O'Leary v Evan Cullen on RTE1
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Camelhair - something just occurred to me,when you mention the cia incident.How is it that two captains in dublin are demoted for getting gpws warnings and taking avoiding action,when a captain in cia very very nearly puts one in the ground and he remains on line without any action being taken.A little inconsistent,possibly political,surely the IAA will come out with the answer at some stage.
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G.R. You can't be serious? I hope not, but if you are, will you please elaborate. It can't be true that a pilot follows the GPWS and gets whacked for it. Of course it depends what it was. If it was a "Too Low Gear", or Too Low Flaps" etc. then there might have been a serious SOP disregard, or the a/c was endangered due negligence. However, if a "Pull UP", and it was followed and the day saved, surely only some research and extra training/discussion how to avoid the problem, again unless gross negligence. Surely every ATC controller who causes an RA, or pilot who causes an RA, is not going to be chopped. What happened to the often professed 'open culture'?
As to an answer from IAA, it will be a 'Mullighan'.
Back to fatigue debate: I still say that a good alert crew can save a broken a/c, but a broken crew can easily crunch a good a/c.
As to an answer from IAA, it will be a 'Mullighan'.
Back to fatigue debate: I still say that a good alert crew can save a broken a/c, but a broken crew can easily crunch a good a/c.
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sad but true
Rat 5,incredible as it sounds,its unfortunately very true. In one case the main problem was failure of FR to pass on vital info ( which the CP was aware of for weeks before the incident occured ) regarding destination airfield nav aid unservicability to the operating crew combined with insufficient training onto the 800( at the cost of 15k euro to the crew). Approach resulted in egpws and crew correctly went around.
Both crew members were subjected to the now famous FR investigatory and disiplinary process and both were demoted. No attempt was made in the Capts demotion sim check back to the right seat to address where the crew went wrong and to solve that problem.I hope im not the only one who see s this as a major problem.
FR are just not interested in solving problems. They use the OFDM as a stick to beat you with rather than a tool to improve safety. Someone has to be punished at all costs instead of taking a step back and looking at where things went wrong and trying to put a system in place to make sure it doesn t happen again in the future.
Both crew members were subjected to the now famous FR investigatory and disiplinary process and both were demoted. No attempt was made in the Capts demotion sim check back to the right seat to address where the crew went wrong and to solve that problem.I hope im not the only one who see s this as a major problem.
FR are just not interested in solving problems. They use the OFDM as a stick to beat you with rather than a tool to improve safety. Someone has to be punished at all costs instead of taking a step back and looking at where things went wrong and trying to put a system in place to make sure it doesn t happen again in the future.
Jolly Green Giant
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An awful lot of ignorant comments on the IAA as usual on PPRuNe. a lot of Walter Mitty's on this thread thinking they know best, thnking they know the procedures, management and processes with the IAA but hey, what's new?
A lot of morons on this thread you just know are praying for FR to have a serious accident.
A lot of morons on this thread you just know are praying for FR to have a serious accident.
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OW22
You seem to purport to have knowledge of the workings of the IAA. Perhaps this is so, if it is, can you tell us how you have this knowledge? And then maybe you could enlighten us about the IAA, let's start with some evidence that they are nothing more than a flag of convenience, actually do take a proactive regulatory role and take seriously the valid concerns of those at the coal face.
Just the opposite you idiot, hence the concern. I, for one, want to come home in one piece. 
If this is the attitude of a supporter of the IAA to those who raise safety concerns, god help us all.
You seem to purport to have knowledge of the workings of the IAA. Perhaps this is so, if it is, can you tell us how you have this knowledge? And then maybe you could enlighten us about the IAA, let's start with some evidence that they are nothing more than a flag of convenience, actually do take a proactive regulatory role and take seriously the valid concerns of those at the coal face.
A lot of morons on this thread you just know are praying for FR to have a serious accident.
If this is the attitude of a supporter of the IAA to those who raise safety concerns, god help us all.
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I have to agree CamelhAir but maybe OW22 was having an off day?
If OW22 really thinks there is anyone here who would wish a serious incident or worse an accident on Ryanair, then I suggest it is he who has the problem.
Regarding the IAA, it is not just on pprune that concerns have been raised about the IAA. David Learmount raised a key concern in the documentary. He is an experienced and knowledgeable aviation journalist who I believe would not make such a comment unless he felt there was an issue.
If OW22 really thinks there is anyone here who would wish a serious incident or worse an accident on Ryanair, then I suggest it is he who has the problem.
Regarding the IAA, it is not just on pprune that concerns have been raised about the IAA. David Learmount raised a key concern in the documentary. He is an experienced and knowledgeable aviation journalist who I believe would not make such a comment unless he felt there was an issue.
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Would this be the same David Learmount that a cursory search on prune would reveal him to have been savaged on regular occasions by many pilots on this forum as not having a clue what he's talking about?
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OW22 - as you know all about the I.A.A.Maybe you can enlighten us to what stage the investigation into the dismissal of a ryanair captain for refusing to fly while FATIGUED is at and when we can expect the report into the near disastrous incident over rome nearly 2 years ago.Still waiting!
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Would this be the same David Learmount that a cursory search on prune would reveal him to have been savaged on regular occasions by many pilots on this forum as not having a clue what he's talking about?
Jolly Green Giant
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I love it, the faux indignation and outrage from the Usual suspects...
Cut the act, it's obvious. We all know there are those who would love to see FR gets it's "comeuppance" with an accident. You're the sick ones, wanting something dreadful like this to happen so you can run around shrilling "I told you so"
It's just Colonel Blimpism at it's finest. British incredulity that a Paddy is running the most succesful airline in Europe so there just simply has to be something wrong with the set-up
I'll turn this around, can we have proof that the IAA does turn a blind-eye to alledged indiscretions? Burden of proof is on those wagging the finger. I know those in the IAA, in Airworthiness and Ops and I had disagreements and run ins with them in the past and they are NO pussies or pushovers. You think O'Leary (who I have no great love for by the way) has them in his back pocket? Laughable and a serious accusation to make without any proof. You should be careful about tarring people like that.....
It's a never ending circle among the chattering clesses in the Pilot community, everyone claiming that FR is about to be nailed, I see it all the time on PPRuNe since as long as I have posted here. Claims that another TV Expose will show what "we have all known" and it will be the end of O'leary and everything can go back to normal.
I remeber claims about 4 years ago from another PPRuNe plonker who claimed that their Maintenance was woeful and a TV programme was about toi nail them and the authorities were going to nail them and it was "inevitable" that an accident was going to happen.
Yet still, nothing. FR still OK, still flying safe......
So how long will this go on for guys? How many more years will we hear the shrilling and shrieking about FR and O'Leary the anti-christ? How many more doomsday warnings etc etc blah, blah.....
Never ends does it guys?! But keep going, it obviously givs you something to do!
Cut the act, it's obvious. We all know there are those who would love to see FR gets it's "comeuppance" with an accident. You're the sick ones, wanting something dreadful like this to happen so you can run around shrilling "I told you so" It's just Colonel Blimpism at it's finest. British incredulity that a Paddy is running the most succesful airline in Europe so there just simply has to be something wrong with the set-up
I'll turn this around, can we have proof that the IAA does turn a blind-eye to alledged indiscretions? Burden of proof is on those wagging the finger. I know those in the IAA, in Airworthiness and Ops and I had disagreements and run ins with them in the past and they are NO pussies or pushovers. You think O'Leary (who I have no great love for by the way) has them in his back pocket? Laughable and a serious accusation to make without any proof. You should be careful about tarring people like that.....
It's a never ending circle among the chattering clesses in the Pilot community, everyone claiming that FR is about to be nailed, I see it all the time on PPRuNe since as long as I have posted here. Claims that another TV Expose will show what "we have all known" and it will be the end of O'leary and everything can go back to normal.
I remeber claims about 4 years ago from another PPRuNe plonker who claimed that their Maintenance was woeful and a TV programme was about toi nail them and the authorities were going to nail them and it was "inevitable" that an accident was going to happen.
Yet still, nothing. FR still OK, still flying safe......
So how long will this go on for guys? How many more years will we hear the shrilling and shrieking about FR and O'Leary the anti-christ? How many more doomsday warnings etc etc blah, blah.....
Never ends does it guys?! But keep going, it obviously givs you something to do!
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British incredulity that a Paddy is running the most succesful airline in Europe so there just simply has to be something wrong with the set-up
Yet still, nothing. FR still OK, still flying safe......
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Well I'm Irish too and therefore not of the Paddy bashing ilk either.
OLeary is not the only Irish man running one of the biggest most successful businesses' in the world. Tony OReilly, Willie Walsh and Peter Sutherland also seem to do rather well but without the public aggression or endless court cases. Different class of operators I’d guess….
This is not about Paddy bashing but safety concerns raised by FR pilots, doctors and a well respected aviation journalist about both FR and the IAA.
OW22, criticising FR or the IAA does not make you an enemy of the Republic.
OLeary is not the only Irish man running one of the biggest most successful businesses' in the world. Tony OReilly, Willie Walsh and Peter Sutherland also seem to do rather well but without the public aggression or endless court cases. Different class of operators I’d guess….
This is not about Paddy bashing but safety concerns raised by FR pilots, doctors and a well respected aviation journalist about both FR and the IAA.
OW22, criticising FR or the IAA does not make you an enemy of the Republic.
Last edited by RogerIrrelevant69; 22nd Sep 2006 at 09:39.
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Guys why even bother replying to OW22, if you look at his history, he is an old barnyard rooster past that specialises in cock-a-doodling in Jet Blast. Take his attempt at serious issues with a grain of Irish sea salt.
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Well the thought did cross my mind that maybe he was related to the infamous Idunno/maxalt troll who seemed to live in Jetblast (until recently...) but I was reserving judgement as he didn't seem quite as mad and angry.
Who and ever these "don't knock anything Irish as we're really sensitive and everything the British do and say is wrong" chappies are occassionally amusing....
Who and ever these "don't knock anything Irish as we're really sensitive and everything the British do and say is wrong" chappies are occassionally amusing....
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1. That the pilots only work 18 hours a week on average. Nonsense of course. Unfortunately it may make a good headline for Joe Public to consume but it is utterly untrue as all pilots know. For that amount of flying, without even examining a typical Ryanair pilot's working week, I would guess 45 hours a week (and with no opportunity for breaks). Real figures supplied here agree with that guess.
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Ryanir Wannabee,
How I hope and pray your wish comes true, that you get your dream job in FR, then after your first week of line training, tell us all about it, how easy it is and how you only worked 18 hours.
I am laughing my a r s e off at the thought of the look on your face when reality hits.
In my FR days new hire FOs under line training were flying 5 6 sector days per week, cos they were not paid sector pay while under line training. So cheaper to use than the qualified FO.
How I hope and pray your wish comes true, that you get your dream job in FR, then after your first week of line training, tell us all about it, how easy it is and how you only worked 18 hours.
I am laughing my a r s e off at the thought of the look on your face when reality hits.
In my FR days new hire FOs under line training were flying 5 6 sector days per week, cos they were not paid sector pay while under line training. So cheaper to use than the qualified FO.
45 / 18 = 2.5. you are saying for every 1 hr flown that pilots are on duty an additional 1.5 hrs? Even though turn-around times are 25 minutes. If you fly 6 x 1-hr sectors in a day you clock in an additional 9 hours of non flying time per day? Eh you're going to have to explain that one - it makes no sense to me. Not to mention the fact that a 45hr working week is really soft going for someone who makes 6 figures. No other industry has it so soft. As I said, just look at doctors or ATCs.
report (usually 90 mins before off chocks...thats just reality) mayby 0500z
6 sectors...4 x 60 mins, 2 x 45 mins....and dont forget the 25 min turnaround
5 x 25 mins= 455 minutes or 7 hrs and 35 minutes of solid work, no breaks, no time to grab a kitkat or chicken wrap (mayby 20 mins to woof down your food that hasn't been confiscated by the BAA security fuhers), and over half the time spent in a de-humidified aluminium can with reduced O2 levels
Throw in 3 or 4 4am starts...and you should start to get a better picture of the "reality" of your opinion. Basically Mr RYR wannabe, you wouldnt know your arse from your elbow in this regard, go back to building plastic models, sniffing glue, or whatever it is you do...cos you aint on the same planet pal.
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oneworld22
I will give you your example as to how the IAA are turning a blind eye.
Over 70 pilots in Dublin signed a petition to the IAA stating that fatigue was a factor in Ryanair and the IAA have done nothing, not investigated, taken action, NOTHING.
I don't mean they should take the word of pilots but they should investigate, and thay haven't.
I have personally spoken to Lillian Cassin the IAA press officer and she told me Mr. Eamon Brennan the IAA chief was very concerned.
You see, the IAA make all the right noises but do nothing.
They are a bunch of incompetents, who are not capable of managing aviation.
They are the laughing stock of european aviation, the only thing is if there is an accident nobody will be laughing.
if there is an accident, the IAA better have good lawyers with well serviced JCB's to dig them out of that one.
I will give you your example as to how the IAA are turning a blind eye.
Over 70 pilots in Dublin signed a petition to the IAA stating that fatigue was a factor in Ryanair and the IAA have done nothing, not investigated, taken action, NOTHING.
I don't mean they should take the word of pilots but they should investigate, and thay haven't.
I have personally spoken to Lillian Cassin the IAA press officer and she told me Mr. Eamon Brennan the IAA chief was very concerned.
You see, the IAA make all the right noises but do nothing.
They are a bunch of incompetents, who are not capable of managing aviation.
They are the laughing stock of european aviation, the only thing is if there is an accident nobody will be laughing.
if there is an accident, the IAA better have good lawyers with well serviced JCB's to dig them out of that one.
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Well said Worldwidewolly, also spare a thought for the Cabin Crew and how they have been treated over the last 10 years, not having contracts renewed if sick for more than 2 days in a years......have to come in and report to crew control face to face if sick ( I mean our crew control were Doctors ????)........punishment details........hormonally crazy CC management. I always felt more for their treatment than my own........now the only faces i see down the back are eastern european......so i guess the Paddys, brits, scots and spanish had enough shoe leather in their teeth.
