Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky
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It could have been deja vu all over again 
Mullah Lite:
Those are valid questions, but if those pilots were in a hurry (they had begun a preflight on the wrong aircraft, then switched to the correct ship number) or did not use their taxi lights until they were pushing the throttles forward and reading their "Lineup" or "Before Takeoff" checklist fairly quickly, they would not be looking much outside.
But heck, they did not mind that the runway lights were off. Why did they not ask the Tower to switch them on? This might have prevented a tragedy.
By the way, at our hubs, many pilots leave their taxi lights off much of the time. I guess that is a symptom of being cool. But I really don't know. It goes way beyond courtesy. It must be some sort of fashion-it has happened for many years.
Some of the original 727s never had taxi lights installed.
Those are valid questions, but if those pilots were in a hurry (they had begun a preflight on the wrong aircraft, then switched to the correct ship number) or did not use their taxi lights until they were pushing the throttles forward and reading their "Lineup" or "Before Takeoff" checklist fairly quickly, they would not be looking much outside.
But heck, they did not mind that the runway lights were off. Why did they not ask the Tower to switch them on? This might have prevented a tragedy.
By the way, at our hubs, many pilots leave their taxi lights off much of the time. I guess that is a symptom of being cool. But I really don't know. It goes way beyond courtesy. It must be some sort of fashion-it has happened for many years.
Some of the original 727s never had taxi lights installed.
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Ignition :
Recommendation # 7 from USALPA Report after the Tenerife crash in 1977 :
By the way, at our hubs, many pilots leave their taxi lights off much of the time. I guess that is a symptom of being cool.
Landing lights must be on, if practicable whenever and aircraft is moving
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Originally Posted by applevid
I would really like to know how Comair trains their pilots and whether the training had line up compass check...does anyone know???
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Originally Posted by applevid
flyboyike...does the written checklist include words to the effect: compass heading/runway alignment check?
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Originally Posted by applevid
Flyboyike:
since before comair existed:
TLC has been my line up checklist:
Transponder:on
Lights: on
Compass: check
fly safe.
since before comair existed:
TLC has been my line up checklist:
Transponder:on
Lights: on
Compass: check
fly safe.
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flyboyike...does the written checklist include words to the effect: compass heading/runway alignment check?
These guys royally f****d up, and it should serve as a reminder that we should be paying attention as we get ready to blast off. That is the only lesson we can take away from this tragedy.
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You can have a checklist item for threats...it is a choice by those who run the airline.
When I taught flying, I explained what had to be done on taking the runway for takeoff...checking final for traffic was one of them
checking the compass/dg/heading indicator was something also part of the training.
IF pilots are checking things because it is a part of their training, the checklist might be shorter.
Who really forked up? Look at the training department for the real answer...and both pilots first instructors.
When I taught flying, I explained what had to be done on taking the runway for takeoff...checking final for traffic was one of them
checking the compass/dg/heading indicator was something also part of the training.
IF pilots are checking things because it is a part of their training, the checklist might be shorter.
Who really forked up? Look at the training department for the real answer...and both pilots first instructors.
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"These guys royally f****d up, and it should serve as a reminder that we should be paying attention as we get ready to blast off. That is the only lesson we can take away from this tragedy."
Hi Sqwak, first off I am neither pilot nor aviation professional, only interested observer and occasional pax. That said, I have followed the thread with interest and disagree with some of your statement.
Certainly they messed up royally, agreed.
That is the only lesson, disagree. Consider the swiss cheese model, it has many holes, but the event only occurs when they all line up. In the instance at hand, there was runway construction, lights absent, possibly ambiguous or obscure or unread or unremembered notifications, possible lack of required ATC personnel, possible inattendence or poor attention of ATC, possible poor signage or runway markings, possible weather or time of day factors, and I could continue. All these have been mentioned.
My point is that absent any one of these possibles, there would be no incident and no discussion here. ALL the factors were in place, and some of them were beyond control of the pilots. Yes they should have observed factors beyond their control, and yes they had ultimate responsibility in which they failed. The other factors were also mistakes in the system for which the pilots were not prepared, despite their extensive training, and which should not have been operative. They fell victim to a combination of circumstances including but not limited to their own inattention. JHMO.
Hi Sqwak, first off I am neither pilot nor aviation professional, only interested observer and occasional pax. That said, I have followed the thread with interest and disagree with some of your statement.
Certainly they messed up royally, agreed.
That is the only lesson, disagree. Consider the swiss cheese model, it has many holes, but the event only occurs when they all line up. In the instance at hand, there was runway construction, lights absent, possibly ambiguous or obscure or unread or unremembered notifications, possible lack of required ATC personnel, possible inattendence or poor attention of ATC, possible poor signage or runway markings, possible weather or time of day factors, and I could continue. All these have been mentioned.
My point is that absent any one of these possibles, there would be no incident and no discussion here. ALL the factors were in place, and some of them were beyond control of the pilots. Yes they should have observed factors beyond their control, and yes they had ultimate responsibility in which they failed. The other factors were also mistakes in the system for which the pilots were not prepared, despite their extensive training, and which should not have been operative. They fell victim to a combination of circumstances including but not limited to their own inattention. JHMO.
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IMO you can't make aviation fool proof by adding more BS to a checklist, it's not on my checklist and I seem to make it to the right runway despite. I feel that a lot of the responsibility falls on the way the FO is weighted down with paper work during a critical phase of flight, we need to free up crews on the way out to the runway so they are both in the loop, rant over. 
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IMO you can't make aviation fool proof by adding more BS to a checklist....
Last item on the before takeoff check list....
Configuration check.
1. Flaps.... Set, and agree with the takeoff data
2. Spoilers ...down
3. Stab trim....Set
4. Compasses...compared, and checked for runway alignment
It really is that simple folks...as PanAmerican learned a long time ago, after a rather serious accident.
Sadly, most in aviation don't (won't) learn from others mistakes.
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411A may have overstated...
It's not QUITE that bad, but in aviation (as in every other endeavor):
1) There are those who learn from the mistakes of others
2) There are those who learn from their own mistakes
3) There are those who never learn
Sadly, most in aviation don't (won't) learn from others mistakes.
1) There are those who learn from the mistakes of others
2) There are those who learn from their own mistakes
3) There are those who never learn
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411A
you make a fine point about learning from past mistakes...one very sad thing is there is no real mechanism other than personal study, on how things came to be in flying.
why we do things.
I'll wager that a number of people can't tell us why the low altitude airway structure is called Victor airways.
What the airways were called before they were Victor airways.
how the runway markings came about.
and why we check the compass on runway line up.
There is an old axiom about how to remove your bayone from your rifle in the US Army. There is the Army way, and the obvious way. The obvious way is to grab the rifle barrel and pull off the bayonet. The army way is to put the rifle stock between your legs and pull off the bayonet.
If someone explains why the army has you look dorky to take off your bayonet, then you realize how smart the old ways are.
And if you can't figure out this bayonet drill, then you might learn the hard way.
Sadly, the modern "ratings factory" method of producing pilots often leaves gaps in Airmanship and Aeronanutical knowledge.
you make a fine point about learning from past mistakes...one very sad thing is there is no real mechanism other than personal study, on how things came to be in flying.
why we do things.
I'll wager that a number of people can't tell us why the low altitude airway structure is called Victor airways.
What the airways were called before they were Victor airways.
how the runway markings came about.
and why we check the compass on runway line up.
There is an old axiom about how to remove your bayone from your rifle in the US Army. There is the Army way, and the obvious way. The obvious way is to grab the rifle barrel and pull off the bayonet. The army way is to put the rifle stock between your legs and pull off the bayonet.
If someone explains why the army has you look dorky to take off your bayonet, then you realize how smart the old ways are.
And if you can't figure out this bayonet drill, then you might learn the hard way.
Sadly, the modern "ratings factory" method of producing pilots often leaves gaps in Airmanship and Aeronanutical knowledge.
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FWIW.... 'not much' I hear you say.
I think OVER reliance on checklists is what causes stuff like this to happen.
Folk have it drummed into them that they MUST follow the C/L at all costs.
This leads them to think that as long as the DO follow the C/L ,that all will be well.
People need, ABOVE ALL ELSE, to think-and to be aware of their surroundings.
Also to realise that Airmen, above all else, rely on Airmanship and NOT checklists or slavish adherence to SOP's (invaluable tho' they certainly are) to keep themselves alive!
I think OVER reliance on checklists is what causes stuff like this to happen.
Folk have it drummed into them that they MUST follow the C/L at all costs.
This leads them to think that as long as the DO follow the C/L ,that all will be well.
People need, ABOVE ALL ELSE, to think-and to be aware of their surroundings.
Also to realise that Airmen, above all else, rely on Airmanship and NOT checklists or slavish adherence to SOP's (invaluable tho' they certainly are) to keep themselves alive!
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Applevid :
I, for one, would be interested to know the history behind.
Off topic :
Until after 1st World War, there were no airports and runways, just airfields , where you always took off and landed against the wind. I guess the price of land near large cities and that of concrete dictated the design of runways.
'll wager that a number of people can't tell us why the low altitude airway structure is called Victor airways.
What the airways were called before they were Victor airways.
how the runway markings came about.
What the airways were called before they were Victor airways.
how the runway markings came about.
Off topic :
Until after 1st World War, there were no airports and runways, just airfields , where you always took off and landed against the wind. I guess the price of land near large cities and that of concrete dictated the design of runways.