Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky

[tiggerific_69]

does anyone know if the crew operated any sectors before the inbound flight to Lexington and whether they were due to operate any after their departure from Lexington?Given their arrival time and departure time to/from Lexington and the amount of rest the crew had,id say it was probably a split duty they were operating and so it would have been legal?
my thoughts go to the families of those involved,and also to the man still in hospital.

[Nov71]

Local Kentucky TV reporting 2 bodies found outside a/c and Coroner states from position of some bodies some pax prob realised what was happening.
Crash site looks very compact
My pure speculation:
Wheels off (no tire tracks other than 150yds did someone say?)
Insuff speed
touchdown & roll into trees or clipped tree
pause
fire/explosion

Be interesting to see if any emergency exits had been opened from inside If yes & fire main CoD then possible factor - remember Manchester UK 1985?
Engine fire on runway during t/o, door facing fire opened, fire spread through cabin causing all fatalities. Bigger plane and many survived.

[Right Way Up]

If rwy 26 is "day/vmc only" as an earlier poster has indicated, I would hope that at night its edge lighting would be switched off so as not to confuse crews taxing out in darkness.
God rest their souls!

[HowlingWind]

Nov71, I believe the local coroner was quoted as saying that most of the deaths were "due to fire, and not smoke inhalation."

[con-pilot]

Am sure that the crew rest period will be examined very seriously and to great detail.

Sad really, very sad.

(By the way, I have a very good friend who is in ATC at Lexington, I learned from him 4 hours ago that the aircraft departed on 26. No, he was not the controller on duty, but one of his best friends was the one on duty. I refrained from making any comments on runway 26 until the NTSB confirmed that the aircraft did in fact takeoff, or rather attempted to take off, on runway 26. I will make no other comment about the controller except the fact he is taking this horrible accident very hard.)

God bless all involved and pray for the First Officer.

[Lost in Saigon]

Can you ask your friend if the tower is even open at 6am? Is it a 24hr tower?

[barit1]

Not the first time this has happened; very similar accident.

[Two's in]

Does either rwy have distance marker boards?

[Nov71]

Howling Wind
I suggest too early for autopsies, Coroners still recovering bodies 35 so far
If no smoke or heat damage to lungs/trachea shown at PM then all dead before fire ie on impact. Obvioulsy all bodies will be badly burned from the fire.
I take your point that lung damage does not indicate a door was opened deliberately or that the 2 bodies got out of their own free will.
I think Coroner said "...from the position of the bodies, some appear to have known what had happened (crash)" I assume this to mean not strapped in and trying to get out.
I apologise for speculating, but all this talk of fatique... The pilots seem to have done a pretty good job subsequently even if the t/o was on the wrong r/w. I shall wait for the FAA prelim

[viking737]

Nov 71 :I apologise for speculating, but all this talk of fatique... The pilots seem to have done a pretty good job subsequently even if the t/o was on the wrong r/w. I shall wait for the FAA prelim
What do you mean by pretty good job?

[Alloy]

Lost in Saigon, from what I remember years ago the tower was in operation 24Hrs a day and I would be suprised if it has changed.

[con-pilot]

Originally Posted by Lost in Saigon

Can you ask your friend if the tower is even open at 6am? Is it a 24hr tower?

It is a 24 hour manned control tower.

Does either rwy have distance marker boards?

As far as I know runway 26 does not, as I was mostly flying 727s into LEX I never used runway 26. I did taxi on it, but I don't remember any distance markers. As a general rule in the United States only runways that would have a lot of military operations have distance markers. I don't believe that there are any hard rules on distance markers. However, in this case I don't know if distance markers would have made any difference. All the other rules on being on the correct runway were ignored.

Why is what we need to find out.

[Nov71]

Until I read the similar incident link which was posted while I was typing I meant the a/c appears to have crash landed in line with the runway without veering off or dropping a wing so I assumed the pilots were doing their best, however futile.

[HotDog]

No FTL's in the USA?

Split duty? Used to hate them with a passion during my flying life. One definitely does not feel at all rested with a four hour nap but perfectly legal.

[Melax]

Safety improvement

I think it's time for the FAA to comme up with some sort of Sign or panel color coded (easy to understand ) giving pilots a quick overview of the runway. i.e red-->c150 yellow -->Dash8 green -->B767 etc..
simple but could be effective.

[Melax]

Safety improvement

1stflyin, you're right fatigue must be adressed I read somewhere that the crew got in after 12am to take-off again @ 6am !! , if true it is down right scary...
but back to the sign idea, it is just another reminder for the crew and I think can make a difference (if it works once, that makes it worthwhile imo).

[brain fade]

In the dark, all lit runways look similar. Especially from the low height of a CRJ cockpit. This was an easy mistake to make. Made even easier by the unfamiliar taxiiway changes in force at the time.

Personally, I always bug the expected drift hdg on the PFD during the turnaround checks.

Mind you, if i was as tired as these guys probably were............

[Loose rivets]

Apropos, my suggestion earlier, the tower would surely have given permission for the a/craft to take off from the intersection. So, this will be answered in good time.

I can't see from the aerial photo if this is really feasible, but it looks a reasonable taxi maneuver, and with recent WIP, there may have been other advantages...and indeed misleading signs.

[Ignition Override]

Captjns: I don't know about when other pilots double check their heading bugs, other than during a busy check of their HSI and VOT test etc, or whether this is clarified on a checklist, if at all. My company's checklists have never included questions or responses about heading bugs-they are assumed from the proper preflight or taxi checklist: "Instruments? [i.e.] 178*, Normal". This assumes that the correct VOR and outbound radial(s) are set, ADI looks good and gyros (HSI/RMI) match, no flags. In our old c0ckpits, I use the course knob to indicate the initial turn with the hdg bug to runway heading, in case of an engine failure etc. But at very special airports such as Wash. National etc you must quickly turn to 328* or whichever, even WITH an engine failure.

For the benefit of the laymen Ppruners who are not pilots, the First Officer is quite busy (much more than the Captain) on the ground in a two-person c0ckpit, often more than in the air. And, as so often happens, a crew (going to a hub airport) begins to taxi and tower suddenly says "..eh.. FrozenDuck 292, can you make a wheels up time in five minutes"?. You are often already waiting for the ACARS screen to display your weight & balance data, which is required (unless transmitted via company radio for back-up) to begin your "Taxi", "All Engines" and "Before Takeoff" checklists, provided that there is not a problem with a passenger or objects in the cabin, or questions about the wind, visibility or braking action.

Extra abnormal procedures for deferred maint. items (MELs) are no help.This does not even begin to describe the cumulative effects of fatigue on a 4- or 5-day trip or an all-night (known as "illegal" or "stand up") duty period which sometimes allows you to have about 4 hours of sleep. The FO on an old, 2-pilot plane has the busiest job of all pilot jobs at the company, not just in a long duty period with 5-7 legs to fly and no time provided to eat. And this workload comparison includes the A-330 and 747.

The most serious danger to all of us on the ground, at many airports, is a mistaken 'runway incursion'/crossing. The accidental takeoff or landing on the wrong runway, which can easily look identical in the dark, especially if close to and parallel with the planned runway, now has the publics' attention (only for the duration of their 3-minute attention span ). Tower controllers often leave all runway and approach lights illuminated-even when your plane is the only aircraft with engines (and beacons) running within 20 miles . They must be too busy with other things such as coordinating with Indy/Atl. Center etc.

[Airbubba]

Apropos, my suggestion earlier, the tower would surely have given permission for the a/craft to take off from the intersection.

Hmmm, you may be on to something. Intersection takeoffs have been badly botched in the past. Remember Dynasty at ANC "cleared for takeoff on Runway 32 at Kilo"? They took off on taxiway Kilo instead, left tire marks on the snowbank at the upwind end (but continued on to TPE). I also remember a Lear years ago, perhaps at CVG, that took the reciprocal heading in an intersection takeoff and took out some approach lights but got airborne.

It has been argued that 3500 feet (or 3400 feet according to some charts) on runway 26 would be enough to get a loaded RJ airborne as long as both engines were at takeoff thrust. The overhead shots from today show that both the entire long runway and part of the short runway have fresh blacktop applied. Is it possible the takeoff was inadvertently commenced from the intersection on the short runway? Both runways have the new surface near the intersection...

It is quite possible that the Comair flight was cleared for takeoff and assigned a departure heading before reaching the runway. In that case, a lot of us would set the heading bug to the intial vector. Of course the lubber line or whatever it's called on a Canadair would still give a clue if the alignment for takeoff wasn't right.

In a few hours I'll take the runway for an early liftoff. I'll ponder these discussions in the hope that it will help me avoid Sunday's tragic outcome.