Airport Security (Merged) - Effects on Crew/Staff

[Aeropig1]

Think fedex JF - licenced flight engineer attacks colleagues with hammer with intent to fly aircraft into building.

No its not ridiculous. Evryone should be screened

[Aeropig1]

Roy, that was in response to a previous comment where the case was put for crew not to be searched on the basis that they held 'valid licences' my point is that that is not a security measure and is no justification pretty much as you said.

[RoyHudd]

Fair enough, a killer, but not a terrorist though. They seem to be of one persuasion.

But how would screening prevent a homicidal FE or FD member going ahead with the dastardly deed? Beyond issue of a Security Pass, Disclosure Scotland, etc, no prohibition of bottle openers, nail scissors, or Diet Coke is going to work. Be real.

[Aeropig1]

As I said above Roy, Security is intelligence lead and the risk has to be managed. The theory is you let what you can on board and introduce restrictions based on the information recieved as to intentions, plans etc. When it is assessed as acceptable risk they are allowed back. The alternative is consider evry possibility and ban evrything. Its not perfect and it is constantly improving - slowly sometimes i'll grant you. But there it is.

[Jockflyer]

Aeropig1,
You know which answer. You are trying to defend the indefenceable. My point is that if I want to kill the pax, then you can take anything off me that you like, as long as I'm sat up front, then your life is in my and every other pilots hands. So screening us throught the security gate is completly pointless.
Who is going to stop me if I decide I want to plow the aircraft into Parliament?
I sound like I'm wanting to play God, but it purely to illustrate a point. Screen us for illegal drugs if you want, breath test us, thats all fine, but I'm afraid taking even a leatherman off us is futile.
I would love to have this conversation with the guy(or girl) who actually makes these decisions.
Fortunately, I'm now on leave for 2 weeks, and hopefully things will be back to normal on my return.
Later.
JF

[LD Max]

Originally Posted by Aeropig1

The alternative is consider evry possibility and ban evrything.

Where it seems Jockflyer, BusyB and many other pilots (including myself) are having difficulty is this.

You say the security measures are intelligence led. But you are banning everything!! No one has said they mind being searched, x-rayed, or sniffed!

But you ban Laptops, phones and PDAs from the flight deck or the cabin. Well that's the end of Business Class then. Some airlines just won't be able to operate that way.

All you needed to do was get the pax or crew to take a swig of their water, same way as you require mothers to take a swig of any baby milk. Anything else is sheer overreaction and creates unnecessary panic and concern.

...and despite the fact that infiltration is a well-known MO, why is it beyond the security services "intelligence" (or lack of it) to figure out that flight crew don't NEED to carry on a liquid explosive when they've got 6000 l of the stuff in the wings! Duh !

...AND Flight Crew deserve a damn sight more respect than what's evidently on offer at the moment. [EDIT] And Engineers!

[con-pilot]

A view from the other side of the tract so to speak on what Aeropig1 wrote about 'different airports, different rules'.

I am an international corporate pilot. I will not name airports or countries for the obvious reasons. In many countries we (corporate crew) have to go through the same security procedures as everyone else. However, some places we are lead to a side door and we and our passengers bypass the security area completely.

On one occasion a British Airways Captain, who I had drinks with a couple of nights before, saw us bypass the security area. I sent my crew on to the airplane and remained behind to wait for my passengers. Sure enough after the BA Captain came through security came up to me and informed me that if we should ever meet in a bar again the drinks would be on me.

So there are still different rules for different people. My former employer always carries a knife that exceeds the allowable limit for carry on. There have been many airports (outside the US, except for KBOS) when the security people will take his knife away from him. Then turn around and hand the knife to me. Then I will give him his knife back in front of the security personnel.

I tell them that it his airplane and if he wants to carry a M-16 on the plane he can do so. Well not literally, gun laws you know.

But, I think you get my drift. I am positive that all corporate aircraft that left the UK for the US in the last two days did so with anything the passengers wanted to carry on board. In other words, if you have the funds, use your own airplane.

However, when we corporate pilots are forced to fly the airlines there have been occasions when we are pulled aside and given extra security because we have airport IDs and "Airline Apparel". Then we have to show our licenses, business cards and still have to do a lot of explaining.

Hopefully sanity well return soon.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I found the answer guys and gals.......

After fifty three years in the business I finally retired.

Life is far less complex now as my big concerns are should I go sailing today or maybe work on my Cub project or just F.T.D. ( Fornicate the Dog )

Arguing with bureaucrats is abut a futile as sitting at the base of Mt. Everest and trying to convince it that it should move to another area.

Next time you guys are flying, lean over and look down at all those offices on the ground jammed with bureaucrats beavering away in their cubicules churning out more and more layers of rules.....

...you will never win because not only do they out number you they are as dense as Mt Everest.

I can't really give you guys any help, except to just look foward to retireing out of the madhouse that Aviation has evolved into.

Chuck E.

[Bob Mckenzie]

Ron & Edna & Aero Pig,

I'll put the question out again. If a person wearing a Police Uniform with ID (And a gun) present themselves at the Airport security screening, they are allowed through ( with the metal detectors blaring as they pass ). Why is that? How do security know that they are Police and not terrorists impersonating Police? Is it because they have a uniform and ID?

[HighLow]

Flew to Gatwick from Dublin as a pax(Friday 8am)
the certain operator i flew with, they allowed ALL hand baggage onto the aircraft -

Flew from Gatwick to Dublin that evening with the same airline NO BAGS ALLOWED,

someone tell me that if security has been stepped up so much, explain why they are allowing aircraft to travel towards Gatwick without undergoing the same 10mile long queues and restrictions as seen in Gatwick South Terminal today.

for these maniacs, it doesnt have to be just outbound trips for them to strike...without ALL airports doing the same security checks it takes away from what the security at Gatwick are trying to achieve...

although the security staff have been working as hard as they can,
the procedures in place over the last couple of days.... i just don't see how the airport will cope....it certainly was streched beyond maximum....

and to finish off just to give an example of how good the security was in Dublin today 6.20am, waiting to check in at Departures......huge long queue......the operator decided to send an agent along the queue asking if any passengers JUST had hand baggages....what happened next i just couldnt believe...especially during these times of heightened security...he hands each of those passengers including myself a PRE-PRINTED boarding card...NOT EVEN THE PASSENGERS NAME ON IT!!! and was told to head to departures..... you think the people at departures wanted to see my passport, NO just the boarding card with NO name on it....and when boarding the plane, the cabin crew involved didn't get a look at my passport...I could have given that BOARDING CARD to ANYONE......it scares me just to think of it......


ONE AIRPORT(GATWICK) complete OVERKILL
ONE AIRPORT(DUBLIN) which operates INTO Gatwick SECURITY NOT GOOD ENOUGH....

QUESTIONS need to be asked!!


HighLow

[evyjet]

How ridiculous it is that I get treated like a pax when it comes to "what I have in my Nav Bag". No nail clippers, scissors etc etc. But some of you idiots think that's actually important for safety ( as opposed to keeping the public happy).

So I have no dangerous nail clippers or scissors, but I have a crash axe behind me in the flightdeck!! Get real, Like has been said before, if a Pilot really wants to do damage he can.

What next? Armed security making sure we fly safely???!!!!

[chiglet]

Piece on Radio 4......The Americans are sending us Skymarshals "to help to SECURE flghts from the UK to the US"
WHO is going to "check" said SkyMarshals? [and what is going to happen to their guns?]
watp,iktch

[Nov71]

Security can never be 100% effective. Flight crew & cc could bring down a plane in flight if they wished without bringing anything onboard but
consider coercion. Bank managers have been forced to 'assist' in bank robberies because their family was held hostage. "All you have to do Captain/Steward is put this bottle of liquid soap in the aft toilet or leave this egg sandwich in the overhead locker above row 1A." I accept, as with most movies, this is more likely with the ground cleaning/catering crew, but the risk is present.
For as long as pax restrictions apply, crew cabin luggage should be consigned to the hold, as per pax valet with only items essential for the flight operation, charts, calculator etc allowed in the cabin after airside security scrutiny. If a mobile phone is essential, an approved mobile phone could be collected from airside security. Hot/cold drinks should be obtained from the galley as should any special diet meals/snacks.
If you think about it, these meaures would protect crews from coercion but as I said Security measures can never be 100%

[LLuke]

I think that the UK goverment did a great job. They caught the bad guys, no one got hurt, no properties damaged. This is really as good as it gets. I understand the current 'security instructions' and happily accept them.

Meanwhile it is up to all goverments to create asap a situation where trust is established. Goverments and the society trust 18 year old kids (policeofficers and soldiers) to carry (machine)guns and carry out orders. We feel (*cough*) safe when we see them. It must be possible to create a situation where pilots are trusted equally. If we are trusted to fly an aircraft with pax and kerosine, we should be trusted to bring a newspaper or anything else. A thorough identity check is more then sufficient. If the guys in front are really the pilots everybody will simply have to trust them. Whether the toothpaste of the captain is real or not, is the least of all problems after the flight has departed with that captain.

Identifying pilots is difficult with so many airliners from so many countries, maybe a common special pass(port) with corresponding data in a worldwide accessable database which gives pilots authority to fly trans-atlantic or to fly in Europe or to fly national depending on A/C type, type of ops, etc.. would help goverments to trust pilots from other countries. Once all pilots are trusted, the identity check should suffice and there would be no need to examine my wallet and squeeze my balls any longer.

I know this all sounds naive, but if the society can trust an 18 year old kid with a machinegun, it must be possible for us to become trusted people.

[Johnbr]

I'm about to fly into the U.S. twice this month,the first flight on sunday...Anybody can tell me if I can take my notebook and my mobile i n my briefcase considering I'm not flying out of the UK?

[Two Cocks]

tis the end of aviation as we know it.

thank you i've had a pleasant ride - now to find a new job

[coopervane]

UK Airport Security Mess

For years now, almost every UK airport seems to do its own thing when it comes to security levels. A common standard is long overdue and maybe its time for the UK Government to take over the running of all UK airport security.

I can never understand why when going through the process of obtaining a security pass for one airport, quite often it is not accepted at another.

If they are all working to the same levels of security clearance, then it should not be a problem.

Another dual standards thing is that aircrew get to walk into almost any airport with their passes,yet other employees such as engineers have to suffer the empire building jobs worth police.

Security access to airside at any UK airport should be the same at Heathrow as it is the Shetlands. Lets have a common pass and all be batting on the same side.

The BAA have the facility in their pass system to authorise another of its airports to be accessed by individuals which is not there own.

This system could be implemented country wide. Another advantage of having a common administation is that when security alerts such as this weeks events could be co-ordinated and implemented through a centalised computer system. You only had to watch the media this week to see the differences in which each airport implemented the alert status.

Come on Mr Blair, see if you can get one thing right before you depart office!!

Coop & you are not bringing your dinner through security without eating it first Bear

[warp factor]

I wonder what security is in place on Cruise Ships,do they have restrictions on carry on luggage?

[Ignition Override]

Welcome to the "club", even though it has gotten much worse.

Ironically, the US security directors still feel like too much metal while walking through the detector is a bad thing-therefore, most passengers still feel required to take their shoes off. Maybe this has improved in the three days since I last flew.

How about catering crews-are they still supplying trays of Pepsi, Cranapple and my favorite Mountain Dew to the planes' galleys?

Your English intelligence people, New Scotland Yard and others, did a superb job. I wonder whether US intelligence could have discovered such a plot, at least after 9-11? Our agencies supposedly share data-or at least we are led to believe this is so.

We should also all be grateful to the Pakistani police forces.

[Dream Land]

As pointed out by several posts I feel that badging for flight crew needs to be stepped up to a higher level, operating pilots should be allowed to bypass the standard passenger check point for obvious reasons pointed out several times in this thread and to free up manpower to search real potential criminals. As far as the comments about how the crew could be involved is total nonsense.