Sen. John McCain - Major A$$hole
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You guys know how to portray the situation well, and in fewer words than this steam-gauge guy.
Just a few questions this time (what a relief!): how does one equate flying in the military on a mission, no matter what- training pilots, keeping proficient in bomber/tanker/fighter/attack/recon/ASW, C-20, C-9 or C-5 etc cargo/pax airlift... to the civilian operations? Do the airlines exist to perform peacetime or combat missions only for our country at strictly "volunteer" wages? Heck, military pilots here still earn not much more per month than the folks flying a desk, unless I've missed something.
Let's hear what Senator McCain says about the grossly underpaid pilots at Mesa and America West, as somebody (more astute than me) pointed out. He is probably selectively ignorant on those facts too, despite Phoenix, Arizona banks helping a good bit to keep America West Airlines afloat years ago.
Just a few questions this time (what a relief!): how does one equate flying in the military on a mission, no matter what- training pilots, keeping proficient in bomber/tanker/fighter/attack/recon/ASW, C-20, C-9 or C-5 etc cargo/pax airlift... to the civilian operations? Do the airlines exist to perform peacetime or combat missions only for our country at strictly "volunteer" wages? Heck, military pilots here still earn not much more per month than the folks flying a desk, unless I've missed something.
Let's hear what Senator McCain says about the grossly underpaid pilots at Mesa and America West, as somebody (more astute than me) pointed out. He is probably selectively ignorant on those facts too, despite Phoenix, Arizona banks helping a good bit to keep America West Airlines afloat years ago.
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Sent Mcain has been targeting civil aviation for a long time. As the senator on the FAA Management advisory Commitee he targeted Phil Boyer personally in his fight to charge corporate a/c more. He did not know his facts about civil aviation then and does not seem to have paid much attention since!
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I fired off an E-mail to McCain last week. Won't do any good but I felt better. He distorts "working" 80 hrs/month with "paid" 80 hrs/month. I "work" about 150 hrs/month and am on the road over 300 hrs/month--He knows this but his distortions make headlines, and headlines make it easier to raise re-election funds. If labor has so much leverage, how was "W" able to effectively de-claw ALPA with his pre-emptive PEB threat. When you read about all the "labor" woes, insert "management" in its place and you will be more accurate. Labor strife is a direct result of management missteps. As for McCain's DD-214 (that's his service record) I honor his service 30 years ago but it in no way offsets his actions today. A previous post hit it on the head, he's been in DC too long, he's just another one of "them" now.
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I have to support Lavdumper. Sen McCain rightly pointed out the disruption in people's lives caused by labor problems at airlines. I have to sympathize with people who can't make a family wedding or funeral, see their son play in the Rose Bowl, lose their vacation, etc. because airlines aren't operating as advertised due to pilot actions. I wish there were some way to get the public on our side when we have disputes. We can't do it with wildcat activism - it hurts our cause every time it happens. I believe the time and place for work action is after the cooling off period, when the public is forewarned and can make other arrangements, negotiations have been conducted and failed, and we exercise our legal strike authority. Sickouts, slowdowns, even company-wide refusals of overtime when overtime has become part of the expected pattern are, if one is honest, illegal in spirit and lower us in the public esteem. I'll be the first one to support a strike at my company or another ALPA company when it is done above-board and within the law. I, like the public don't like other job actions intended to disrupt the public or destroy the company.
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BenThere has some valid points about how circumventing the Railway Labor Act has hurt our unions, in the media/public's eyes, and in the White House and Congress, where we need all the support we can find (strange how most pilots seem to vote Republican but any actual tolerance of organized labor is mostly from the Democratic Party). These comments were made in a detached style, unlike those referred to on a previous page.
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ACCORDING TO MAYR MOSTERT ON THE INTERNET -
"When the issue was being debated for opening up diplomatic relations with Vietnam and removing sanctions against Vietnam, on the floor of the Senate July 1, 1993, John McCain said, in supporting Clinton's determination to open diplomatic relations with Hanoi, in spite of Republican opposition:
I would point out that I believe that President Clinton will act in what is in the best interest of the United States of America. He will make that decision receiving information from our military advisers, from our State Department advisers, from his National Security Adviser, including the men and women who have been in the field in Vietnam making heroic efforts to try to ascertain as to whether there are any Americans left alive and also recover the remains of those who died in that activity.
So, I would hope that and I know that Senator Dole and all other Members will respect the decision even if they disagree when the President makes a very important foreign policy decision. I believe that it is in the interest of the United States of America for us to make progress. "
"When the issue was being debated for opening up diplomatic relations with Vietnam and removing sanctions against Vietnam, on the floor of the Senate July 1, 1993, John McCain said, in supporting Clinton's determination to open diplomatic relations with Hanoi, in spite of Republican opposition:
I would point out that I believe that President Clinton will act in what is in the best interest of the United States of America. He will make that decision receiving information from our military advisers, from our State Department advisers, from his National Security Adviser, including the men and women who have been in the field in Vietnam making heroic efforts to try to ascertain as to whether there are any Americans left alive and also recover the remains of those who died in that activity.
So, I would hope that and I know that Senator Dole and all other Members will respect the decision even if they disagree when the President makes a very important foreign policy decision. I believe that it is in the interest of the United States of America for us to make progress. "
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UAL pilots refusal to work VOLUNTARY overtime last summer was completely and utterly the fault of Mr. Goodwin. ALPA TOLD him a year prior that the schedule that he drew up could not supported except by extraordinary efforts by pilots. In addition, he knew the contract would be in contention at that time. Nevertheless, in an unbelievable act of stupidity, Mr. Goodwin bet-on-the-come and LOST.
Overtime is COMPLETELY at the discretion of the individual, as set forth in the CONTRACT. Pilots fullfilled their contractual requirements. I beg to differ with you Ben There -- just because I worked overtime VOLUNTARILY last month, doesn't obligate me to work it this month -MORALLY OR LEGALLY.
The travelling public doesn't give a damn about my family or my bank account. We provide a service FOR MONEY to the company, who provides service to the public FOR MONEY. Airline pilots do their part A LOT better than airline managements do. If you want to play the blame game, lay it at the feet of management. Bad labor relations are almost ALWAYS a result of inane and foolish management. The same goes for airline failures - bad management and fuel costs kill airlines, not pilot's salaries.
As far as Mr. McCain goes, his public inference that UAL pilots were unpatriotic because they would not work voluntary overtime was beyond the pale, a bald-faced LIE, and meant to engrandize his hot-headed ego in the eyes of an misinformed public. Mr. McCain is beneath contempt, regardless of his past hero status. There are many UAL pilots who served their country as honorably as he. I served my country for over 20 years. I took deep offense in his slander. McCain is unfit to lead anything.
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 12 May 2001).]
Overtime is COMPLETELY at the discretion of the individual, as set forth in the CONTRACT. Pilots fullfilled their contractual requirements. I beg to differ with you Ben There -- just because I worked overtime VOLUNTARILY last month, doesn't obligate me to work it this month -MORALLY OR LEGALLY.
The travelling public doesn't give a damn about my family or my bank account. We provide a service FOR MONEY to the company, who provides service to the public FOR MONEY. Airline pilots do their part A LOT better than airline managements do. If you want to play the blame game, lay it at the feet of management. Bad labor relations are almost ALWAYS a result of inane and foolish management. The same goes for airline failures - bad management and fuel costs kill airlines, not pilot's salaries.
As far as Mr. McCain goes, his public inference that UAL pilots were unpatriotic because they would not work voluntary overtime was beyond the pale, a bald-faced LIE, and meant to engrandize his hot-headed ego in the eyes of an misinformed public. Mr. McCain is beneath contempt, regardless of his past hero status. There are many UAL pilots who served their country as honorably as he. I served my country for over 20 years. I took deep offense in his slander. McCain is unfit to lead anything.
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 12 May 2001).]
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Road Trip
I accept that you have a perfect right not to perform overtime. The distinction I make is whether that choice is a perfectly valid personal matter, or part of an organized attempt by labor to collectively cause flight cancellations. That's where I think the ice is thin. Don't get me wrong - I'm ALPA through and through. I do however, want to hold my head high and do things the right way and have public opinion in my favor. The dilemma is that sometimes messages do need to be sent to management and there aren't a lot of choices open to us now, which is why we have the PAC for political purposes. We need to think of new ways to legally challenge management when we need to. I would say the most likely areas for improvement are cultivation of the media, and developing allies in both political parties.
Regarding John McCain. He went through some bad times on our behalf. He's entitled to his outlook and opinions. The people of Arizona can pull his ticket if they want. I find Barbara Boxer more offensive on her best day than John McCain on his worst. But she's entitled to her outlook and opinions, too.
I accept that you have a perfect right not to perform overtime. The distinction I make is whether that choice is a perfectly valid personal matter, or part of an organized attempt by labor to collectively cause flight cancellations. That's where I think the ice is thin. Don't get me wrong - I'm ALPA through and through. I do however, want to hold my head high and do things the right way and have public opinion in my favor. The dilemma is that sometimes messages do need to be sent to management and there aren't a lot of choices open to us now, which is why we have the PAC for political purposes. We need to think of new ways to legally challenge management when we need to. I would say the most likely areas for improvement are cultivation of the media, and developing allies in both political parties.
Regarding John McCain. He went through some bad times on our behalf. He's entitled to his outlook and opinions. The people of Arizona can pull his ticket if they want. I find Barbara Boxer more offensive on her best day than John McCain on his worst. But she's entitled to her outlook and opinions, too.
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ben there
I reserve the right to disagree with anybody, or everybody.I am exercising that right.
Your assertion that witholding overtime was in some way immoral because it would have a predictable effect of disrupting flights is disingenuous.
The outcome was not clearly predictable to United's management, unless they had some sort of agenda. From reports I see, they were advised some time ago that rosters could not work without the automatic use of VOLUNTARY overtime.
They thought they knew better.
Who are the "mere pilots" to question the wisdom of United's management?
So when the pilots stopped working overtime Managements plan should have kicked in and things should have continued smoothly.
To assume anything else would mean that management were unaware of the implications (asleep at the helm), or fully knew the implications, and were willing to risk the outcome.
There is a cryptic Caribbean slang that covers this situation; "if you ehnt 'fraid to dead, why I must 'fraid to kill yuh ?"
I think Roadtrip is right on this one.
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fly low, bite hard
I reserve the right to disagree with anybody, or everybody.I am exercising that right.
Your assertion that witholding overtime was in some way immoral because it would have a predictable effect of disrupting flights is disingenuous.
The outcome was not clearly predictable to United's management, unless they had some sort of agenda. From reports I see, they were advised some time ago that rosters could not work without the automatic use of VOLUNTARY overtime.
They thought they knew better.
Who are the "mere pilots" to question the wisdom of United's management?
So when the pilots stopped working overtime Managements plan should have kicked in and things should have continued smoothly.
To assume anything else would mean that management were unaware of the implications (asleep at the helm), or fully knew the implications, and were willing to risk the outcome.
There is a cryptic Caribbean slang that covers this situation; "if you ehnt 'fraid to dead, why I must 'fraid to kill yuh ?"
I think Roadtrip is right on this one.
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fly low, bite hard
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As one of the ~10,000 or so in the stack waiting on an interview at UAL, let me point out it would have been far cheaper for Goodwin to hire some more of us than count on overtime.
Yes, it probably was an organized refusal. ALPA has the cheek to believe a pilot should be able to make a decent wage WITHOUT coming in on his days off.
It's interesting to me - send an offshore oil worker to a rig for 14 days, and the world agrees he deserves 14 days off. Sent a UAL pilot on a 14 day trip, and he is living so luxuriously he should work some overtime, for his country, you know.
Yes, it probably was an organized refusal. ALPA has the cheek to believe a pilot should be able to make a decent wage WITHOUT coming in on his days off.
It's interesting to me - send an offshore oil worker to a rig for 14 days, and the world agrees he deserves 14 days off. Sent a UAL pilot on a 14 day trip, and he is living so luxuriously he should work some overtime, for his country, you know.
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Huck - It's usually always cheaper for the company to pay overtime than to hire more pilots. That doesn't necessarily make it smart business, though. I understand UAL stopped hiring until Sept. I wonder what that'll do to them in the long run, especially since the U merger is very uncertain. If they do get US Airways, then the whole kit a kaboodle will be overstaffed and may result in furloughs. No wonder the UAL pilots are against it. Just like American, I'd much prefer to grow at a controlled rate with pilots at the back of the seniority list. I think if UAL gets US Airways, hiring at UAL will slow to a standstill.
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HUCK -
Good analogy. The oil-rig worker doesn't have to quit/retire at 60, either. Coffee / smoke breaks are sacred. Max shift = 12 hours.
Remembering the common philosophy that a contract is 90% to protect pilots from their fellow pilot, McCain fits into the picture. Watch that guy!
I'll be shocked to see a movement for pilots to upgrade their civil rights to that of a bus driver.
Emergency Revocations, Mandatory Retirement, Mandatory Overtime, Mandatory 'Bank' Time??? Hey, something is really wrong in this picture!
Good analogy. The oil-rig worker doesn't have to quit/retire at 60, either. Coffee / smoke breaks are sacred. Max shift = 12 hours.
Remembering the common philosophy that a contract is 90% to protect pilots from their fellow pilot, McCain fits into the picture. Watch that guy!
I'll be shocked to see a movement for pilots to upgrade their civil rights to that of a bus driver.
Emergency Revocations, Mandatory Retirement, Mandatory Overtime, Mandatory 'Bank' Time??? Hey, something is really wrong in this picture!
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Thanks to SunSeaSandfly and Roadtrip for responding to my post. To clarify the thread, I didn't use the term "moral", Roadtrip did. My assertion was meant to be that an organized overtime stoppage, along with sickouts and slowdowns were:
1. Probably illegal
2. Damaging to us
Take a survey of pax/public about the cause of the problems at UAL last year during the overtime action. I suspect the results would be:
1. Greedy pilots - 90%
2. Stupid management - 10%
Among pilots, of course, the results would be inverted, but that doesn't matter. My purpose in this discussion is to find a way to take action legally that doesn't throw the public, and resultingly, the politicians against us. The judgment against American's union should be a wake up call against taking action that won't stand up in court. If carried out, it will bankrupt the union while further alienating the public. Is that the result we want? One final thought: I think 10,000 letters to congressmen is more effective than 10,000 sickouts which halt an airline. Thanks, again for your responses and debate.
1. Probably illegal
2. Damaging to us
Take a survey of pax/public about the cause of the problems at UAL last year during the overtime action. I suspect the results would be:
1. Greedy pilots - 90%
2. Stupid management - 10%
Among pilots, of course, the results would be inverted, but that doesn't matter. My purpose in this discussion is to find a way to take action legally that doesn't throw the public, and resultingly, the politicians against us. The judgment against American's union should be a wake up call against taking action that won't stand up in court. If carried out, it will bankrupt the union while further alienating the public. Is that the result we want? One final thought: I think 10,000 letters to congressmen is more effective than 10,000 sickouts which halt an airline. Thanks, again for your responses and debate.
