Vietnam Airlines 777 narrowly escapes being shot down
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Well, it is easy to condemn them, but I would love to have a look at their last few weeks roster to see why they were asleep!
The Korean crash at Guam many years ago revealed a murderous roster that few of us could have managed, no wonder the crew were half-asleep when flying the approach!
The Korean crash at Guam many years ago revealed a murderous roster that few of us could have managed, no wonder the crew were half-asleep when flying the approach!
but for both pilots to be sleeping at the same time i think is unforgivable.
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Originally Posted by UP and Down Operator
How can it be racistic if it is true 
Then it is called facts, no matter what colour you are born with.
Accept it and realise that not all cultures are equally diciplined
Then it is called facts, no matter what colour you are born with.
Accept it and realise that not all cultures are equally diciplined
Oh, and by the way my wife is Vietnamese & we have three beautiful daughters, I'd like to thank Vietnam for that.
I suppose that I should get around to saying what I wanted to say in the first place.
I was on a Vietnam Ailines flight from Da nang to Hanoi a whlie back, I was a PAX but unfortunately for me the Vietnamese football team was playing an "important" match.
The flight crew/cabin crew were up-front listening to the match courtesy of Vietnamese ATC.
Makes you wonder!!!
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Xin
Having worked for VN for several years now I would like to throw some light on the situation here.VN'S safety culture is improving all the time and the standard of young cadets coming out of the training scheme is as good as anywhere in the world.The management of the airline were shocked at these two incidents and have taken action to rectify future problems.
The crew that were on the Hanoi Frankfurt flight have been stood down as the matter is being thoroughly investigated by both the airline and the CAAV.
Certainly crew rostering is a problem here with the local crew working around 50% more than foreign crews.This is because of the current pay system rewards them for working every day.It is not unusual to see a roster with no days off in the home port.I am sure there is a burn out factor with some of these crews at the moment.
The smuggling F/O has severly embaressed everyone and will have to deal with Australian authorities before he will be dealt with back in Vietnam,I believe he may be in custody for quite some time. But do not think that management have shrugged their shoulders and wait for it to go away,they are being very pro active.
As far as corruption goes its the way things get done here,once again things are changing but a lot more time is needed to get rid of this deeply ingrained practise.
Xin
The crew that were on the Hanoi Frankfurt flight have been stood down as the matter is being thoroughly investigated by both the airline and the CAAV.
Certainly crew rostering is a problem here with the local crew working around 50% more than foreign crews.This is because of the current pay system rewards them for working every day.It is not unusual to see a roster with no days off in the home port.I am sure there is a burn out factor with some of these crews at the moment.
The smuggling F/O has severly embaressed everyone and will have to deal with Australian authorities before he will be dealt with back in Vietnam,I believe he may be in custody for quite some time. But do not think that management have shrugged their shoulders and wait for it to go away,they are being very pro active.
As far as corruption goes its the way things get done here,once again things are changing but a lot more time is needed to get rid of this deeply ingrained practise.
Xin
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Originally Posted by EDDNHopper
Back to the original topic: It was a "Spiegel" report. Anybody here with facts or more reliable details?
Do mean to say that the report contains no facts?
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Loss of Com Incident
This incident has deeply embarrassed all at VN and management now seem to be inward looking and not just blaming the crew.
It seems that the flight went nocoms somewhere in the Ukraine and flew through Poland and into the Czech republic before being intercepted and regaining communications. At no time was its identity in doubt. The transponder code was correct and was turned on.
It seems that a frequency change was not given to the aircraft by the controller somewhere in the Ukraine and it flew out of range of that transmitter. The usual collection of events then occurred to cause the holes in the Swiss cheese to line up.
The way it has been told: 1. One pilot may have taken a nap, speakers were turned off and the other pilot put on his headset. 2. At sometime one of the crew had selected a different frequency on com 3 so data was not selected, inbound phone calls were then prevented. 3 At sometime the pilot took his headset off and the aircraft became no com.
It has been said that the captain was not on great terms with the cabin crew and they came nowhere near him. The captain at sometime engaged the F/O in some sort of quiz and a degree of awareness seems to have been lost. It was just prior to dawn when body rhythm is at its lowest.
They deny being asleep. The crew seems to have been the relief crew. The flight is heavy crewed with four pilots.
The aircraft is fitted with the “Pilot Response” warning.
It seems that the operating F/O came back on duty early and observed the fighter and immediately communicated on 121.5.
It seems that the flight went nocoms somewhere in the Ukraine and flew through Poland and into the Czech republic before being intercepted and regaining communications. At no time was its identity in doubt. The transponder code was correct and was turned on.
It seems that a frequency change was not given to the aircraft by the controller somewhere in the Ukraine and it flew out of range of that transmitter. The usual collection of events then occurred to cause the holes in the Swiss cheese to line up.
The way it has been told: 1. One pilot may have taken a nap, speakers were turned off and the other pilot put on his headset. 2. At sometime one of the crew had selected a different frequency on com 3 so data was not selected, inbound phone calls were then prevented. 3 At sometime the pilot took his headset off and the aircraft became no com.
It has been said that the captain was not on great terms with the cabin crew and they came nowhere near him. The captain at sometime engaged the F/O in some sort of quiz and a degree of awareness seems to have been lost. It was just prior to dawn when body rhythm is at its lowest.
They deny being asleep. The crew seems to have been the relief crew. The flight is heavy crewed with four pilots.
The aircraft is fitted with the “Pilot Response” warning.
It seems that the operating F/O came back on duty early and observed the fighter and immediately communicated on 121.5.
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my question is, what if there is NO response from all 3 crew response alarms? and both crew members are actually incapacitated?? what does the aircraft do then? will it automatically issue a PAN or Mayday call?
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The Job in Hand
A Quiz-------Who wants to be a Millionaire.
Its always baffled me the section of our community that use the Flight Deck as an examination centre. Invariably radio calls end up being missed or requiring at the very least repeats. Saw it myself recently while jump seating. All singing and dancing training Capt with new f/o, demonstrating the A/P in HDG mode,cruises through waypoint and when I tapped his shoulder to point it out, he just wagged his finger for me to wait until he was ready. Needless to say I did not wait as we were heading for unfriendly airspace. He bought a lot of beer after.......
The job in hand is the operation of the Aircraft, leave the Quiz for terra firma.
Its always baffled me the section of our community that use the Flight Deck as an examination centre. Invariably radio calls end up being missed or requiring at the very least repeats. Saw it myself recently while jump seating. All singing and dancing training Capt with new f/o, demonstrating the A/P in HDG mode,cruises through waypoint and when I tapped his shoulder to point it out, he just wagged his finger for me to wait until he was ready. Needless to say I did not wait as we were heading for unfriendly airspace. He bought a lot of beer after.......
The job in hand is the operation of the Aircraft, leave the Quiz for terra firma.
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Lowly SLF / PPL comment, so forgive me...
Could another special transponder code be assigned to this - and have the crew response alarms automagically get it to squawk whatever so that there is an external indication of the problem.
Of course, this may be such a rare event as to not warrant it, but that seems easier to me than an automatic pan or mayday which would require some robotic voice on the radio.
Paul.
Originally Posted by Ultralights
my question is, what if there is NO response from all 3 crew response alarms? and both crew members are actually incapacitated?? what does the aircraft do then? will it automatically issue a PAN or Mayday call?
Of course, this may be such a rare event as to not warrant it, but that seems easier to me than an automatic pan or mayday which would require some robotic voice on the radio.
Paul.
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I can see the movie now!
"Good Morning Vietnam Pilots", staring Robin 'snoozing' Williams and Tom 'in the' Cruise:-) Of course it would be released in Czech as "Dobre rano Vjetname Kapitan".
rgds,
GP.
"Good Morning Vietnam Pilots", staring Robin 'snoozing' Williams and Tom 'in the' Cruise:-) Of course it would be released in Czech as "Dobre rano Vjetname Kapitan".
rgds,
GP.
I Have Control
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Tired---moi?
Happens more often than folk care to admit to. For very obvious reasons. And not only 2-crew a/c. There exists a culture in many companies which actively discourages in-flight controlled napping. Not good, and yet here seems to be an example where in-flight napping may have gone wrong. Conjecture, I know.
I feel compelled to say that this incident could probably have been avoided by judicious use of the relief crew. (Although maybe they had only recently left the flight deck for their bunks). But with 2-crew ops on deep-night returns from UK/Eire to the likes of Cyprus or Egypt, the pressure is on to work safely and effectively as a crew.
Perhaps 411A has a point, but I know no honest pilot who can say they are never desperately tired in flight at certain moments. I know of no absolute solution to the problem.
I feel compelled to say that this incident could probably have been avoided by judicious use of the relief crew. (Although maybe they had only recently left the flight deck for their bunks). But with 2-crew ops on deep-night returns from UK/Eire to the likes of Cyprus or Egypt, the pressure is on to work safely and effectively as a crew.
Perhaps 411A has a point, but I know no honest pilot who can say they are never desperately tired in flight at certain moments. I know of no absolute solution to the problem.
Before the tragedy at LIT Arkansas, the US FAA never had a required rest period for standby/reserve crews with multiple days on duty, except for 24 hours off in each 7 days. The pressure from the airlines or the White House was difficult to resist. Who appoints the top FAA Administrator? How about the Secretary of Transportation? No-not Congress. No-not the judicial branch.
Let's combine that older reality (which lasted decades) with the fact that any company can stretch/explode your 16 hour duty period (consecutive hours with no rest) by adding a long reposition or a series of ferry flights before or after the very long duty period. Some crews have worked, whether on DC-8s, 727s or Learjets etc for up to 24-30 hours or more with no rest period. You either say something to Crew Scheduling, for example: "yes sir, I can 'hack' (handle) the mission!" and continue with unsafe working periods, along with the rest of your company peers, or you leave or get fired/sacked. But civilian aviation, working for pax and freight airlines, is not a military rescue mission (i.e. Khe San). My apologies to the very brave (CAT) C-119 pilots who died when under fire at Dien Bien Phu etc.
Check out the NTSB's primary cause for the freight airline DC-8 crash at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. This primary cause (fatigue) was reportedly a first for the NTSB. And it was not many years ago that the NTSB finally summed up the courage to publish such a conclusion.
One cpompany operated twin-turbofan jets, and when an engine flamed-out, they simply demanded a lower altitude and restarted it...too much checking of maintenance records and aircraft logbooks would result. But a pilot who correctly declared an emergency would be in serious trouble with the owner (fired), an infamous former race car driver, who once flew a Learjet solo and told the FAA Inspector that he did not need an FO. Other frieght companies were not better. At a company on the east coast, an emergency might NOT be declared, even in a DC-6 during approach with an engine fire. If a tower controller asked whther everything was ok, they just say "roger". The pilot's present company will remain anonymous. Our "Friends" at the FAA turned many blind eyes to these realities. Not all, but some of them. A Line Inspector's concerns can be overruled by his supervisor.
But many newer civilian pilots are unable or unwilling to distinguish between a mission and a civilian job...because they generally like the work, feel a strong need to prove and challenge themselves, and need it to pay bills or enhance their resumes/CV. The male ego in a peer setting can work wonders, or lead to tragedy. Some will work any terrible schedule because they can tell attractive women "well..I fly jets". Some of those types tend to be the type who, in order to inflate their own egos at any bottom-dollar salary, will scab a picket line in order to wear an airline jet uniform. For example, as a very young guy said before he scabbed at Continental in '83 (he later became Stan. Eval. with an AFRES C-130B squadron), "I want an airline job so bad I can taste it". It's all about me (ME).
An accident while flying freight will never sell newspapers and attract the attention of Congress unless women and children (it makes "good copy") on the ground die as a result. Check into the hull loss insurance ' pay off ' for each jet airliner, just for a B-737 or MD-83. Fatalities are considered part of the game by many upper mgmts. The media relish such opportunities and find it lucrative during 'rating $weeps'. $alve Lucrum!
Let's combine that older reality (which lasted decades) with the fact that any company can stretch/explode your 16 hour duty period (consecutive hours with no rest) by adding a long reposition or a series of ferry flights before or after the very long duty period. Some crews have worked, whether on DC-8s, 727s or Learjets etc for up to 24-30 hours or more with no rest period. You either say something to Crew Scheduling, for example: "yes sir, I can 'hack' (handle) the mission!" and continue with unsafe working periods, along with the rest of your company peers, or you leave or get fired/sacked. But civilian aviation, working for pax and freight airlines, is not a military rescue mission (i.e. Khe San). My apologies to the very brave (CAT) C-119 pilots who died when under fire at Dien Bien Phu etc.
Check out the NTSB's primary cause for the freight airline DC-8 crash at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. This primary cause (fatigue) was reportedly a first for the NTSB. And it was not many years ago that the NTSB finally summed up the courage to publish such a conclusion.
One cpompany operated twin-turbofan jets, and when an engine flamed-out, they simply demanded a lower altitude and restarted it...too much checking of maintenance records and aircraft logbooks would result. But a pilot who correctly declared an emergency would be in serious trouble with the owner (fired), an infamous former race car driver, who once flew a Learjet solo and told the FAA Inspector that he did not need an FO. Other frieght companies were not better. At a company on the east coast, an emergency might NOT be declared, even in a DC-6 during approach with an engine fire. If a tower controller asked whther everything was ok, they just say "roger". The pilot's present company will remain anonymous. Our "Friends" at the FAA turned many blind eyes to these realities. Not all, but some of them. A Line Inspector's concerns can be overruled by his supervisor.
But many newer civilian pilots are unable or unwilling to distinguish between a mission and a civilian job...because they generally like the work, feel a strong need to prove and challenge themselves, and need it to pay bills or enhance their resumes/CV. The male ego in a peer setting can work wonders, or lead to tragedy. Some will work any terrible schedule because they can tell attractive women "well..I fly jets". Some of those types tend to be the type who, in order to inflate their own egos at any bottom-dollar salary, will scab a picket line in order to wear an airline jet uniform. For example, as a very young guy said before he scabbed at Continental in '83 (he later became Stan. Eval. with an AFRES C-130B squadron), "I want an airline job so bad I can taste it". It's all about me (ME).
An accident while flying freight will never sell newspapers and attract the attention of Congress unless women and children (it makes "good copy") on the ground die as a result. Check into the hull loss insurance ' pay off ' for each jet airliner, just for a B-737 or MD-83. Fatalities are considered part of the game by many upper mgmts. The media relish such opportunities and find it lucrative during 'rating $weeps'. $alve Lucrum!
Last edited by Ignition Override; 22nd Jun 2006 at 03:52.
