Armenian A320 crash whilst attempting to land in bad weather
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First of all My condolences to all those effected from this tragedy .
Would like to know what type of approach she was making ? fuel scenario . . . I read somewhere they had 10 tons on T/O , making a calculated guess then I don't think they were short of fuel , however correct me if im wrong on this ....
I believe this was the second attempt to land after initating a go around , what was the cause of this ?
all the press sites are claiming wx was the reason for the crash , was there shear and or microburst activity in the area ?
Anyone
Would like to know what type of approach she was making ? fuel scenario . . . I read somewhere they had 10 tons on T/O , making a calculated guess then I don't think they were short of fuel , however correct me if im wrong on this ....
I believe this was the second attempt to land after initating a go around , what was the cause of this ?
all the press sites are claiming wx was the reason for the crash , was there shear and or microburst activity in the area ?
Anyone
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Originally Posted by FIRESYSOK
Weather most 'certainly' the cause? Sounds like a bad Hollywood script...
With regards,
Stubenfliege
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http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...05/04/001.html
FROM THE MOSCOW TIMES.
Is there much chance the aircraft stalled?
FROM THE MOSCOW TIMES.
The plane made its first approach toward Adler airport around 3 a.m. local time but was unable to land due to poor visibility. The plane circled and made a second approach, during which visibility again dropped below minimum acceptable levels. Air traffic controllers advised the pilot to climb to 600 meters.
It was during the climb, at 3:15 a.m., that the plane made a sharp turn and dropped off Adler airport's radar, a member of the airport's technical staff said, Interfax reported.
"The A320's speed was about 250 kilometers per hour, which may not have been enough for it to gain altitude," the source said.
The plane hit the water at a steep angle, Beltsov said.
It was during the climb, at 3:15 a.m., that the plane made a sharp turn and dropped off Adler airport's radar, a member of the airport's technical staff said, Interfax reported.
"The A320's speed was about 250 kilometers per hour, which may not have been enough for it to gain altitude," the source said.
The plane hit the water at a steep angle, Beltsov said.
Bear Behind
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Not with the hard envelope protection of the A320, no. It won't stall no matter what you do to it. It would just fail to gain height, not stall. That's a part of the fly-by-wire system as basic on the A320.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum
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was there shear and or microburst activity in the area
To give some background, at the moment I am working on a paper looking at some unusual characteristics of storms in Black Sea area. Specifically, I am looking at the Rostov Region area, where the topography does not complicate the issue. One factor I note is the very localised intense downdraughts that are not necessarily coincident with an active cell. It is reasonable to hypothesize that this characteristic will equally apply in Krasnador Region, and that the mountains may even exacerbate this characteristic.
As a non-aviator I can offer no opinion on cause of this tragedy, and note the previous comments about how easy it is to quickly use weather as a thoughtless and 'media friendly' cause. However, if this information is helpful in any way I trust you will forgive my visit to R&N!
Suffice to say, I feel great sadness at this accident and also wish to add my condolences.
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The Pitch-Up Illusion
OTOLITH ORGANS
.
The Otolith Organs work like a caterpillar oriented from the front to the back of the head. When you move your head the multiple legs of the caterpillar (hairs) are stimulated by gravitational forces enabling you to have positional awareness. Due to inertia, linear acceleration cannot be distinguished from the force of gravity. If an adequate horizon is not visible, forward acceleration will result in backward displacement of the caterpillar, giving the forceful illusion of a pitchup in attitude. An adequate horizon may not be available outside of the aircraft when you are looking into the sun such as might exist at dawn or dusk.
Despite being in level flight or shallow climb, upon acceleration in such a situation a pilot might strongly perceive that the aircraft is pitching up and respond by pushing the nose down steeply.
.
The Otolith Organs work like a caterpillar oriented from the front to the back of the head. When you move your head the multiple legs of the caterpillar (hairs) are stimulated by gravitational forces enabling you to have positional awareness. Due to inertia, linear acceleration cannot be distinguished from the force of gravity. If an adequate horizon is not visible, forward acceleration will result in backward displacement of the caterpillar, giving the forceful illusion of a pitchup in attitude. An adequate horizon may not be available outside of the aircraft when you are looking into the sun such as might exist at dawn or dusk.
Despite being in level flight or shallow climb, upon acceleration in such a situation a pilot might strongly perceive that the aircraft is pitching up and respond by pushing the nose down steeply.
Originally Posted by OVERTALK
Despite being in level flight or shallow climb, upon acceleration in such a situation a pilot might strongly perceive that the aircraft is pitching up and respond by pushing the nose down steeply.
My own guy had a good basic technique. On the first IR lesson he just got me to put head down and close eyes, and comment on what I felt was the attitude of the aircraft while he had control. When I was saying "straight and level" he would say "look up" and I would find he had gently put us in a spiral dive (which I then had to get us out of). Did it a couple of times. Never forgot it.
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Overtalk, not certain if you are qualified, but for I think all of us with IR training our instructors dinned into us from day 1 to work on instruments, not bodily awareness.
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Pitch-up Illusion was the cause of GulfAir 072 in Bahrein. It can be a very overpowering illusion. It's lost many USN airplanes.
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Somatogravic Illusion and the GF072 accident - LINK
Last edited by OVERTALK; 5th May 2006 at 01:39.
The Analog Kid
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It was during the climb, at 3:15 a.m., that the plane made a sharp turn and dropped off Adler airport's radar, a member of the airport's technical staff said, Interfax reported.
"The A320's speed was about 250 kilometers per hour, which may not have been enough for it to gain altitude," the source said.
The plane hit the water at a steep angle, Beltsov said.
"The A320's speed was about 250 kilometers per hour, which may not have been enough for it to gain altitude," the source said.
The plane hit the water at a steep angle, Beltsov said.
Cheers,
Rich.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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I am NOT suggesting that it had anything to do with the accident, but my newspaper quoted one young lady waiting at the destination airport as saying "Mum rang me and said she had got a signal on her mobile so they would be landing soon"
Psychophysiological entity
Originally Posted by OVERTALK
7000hrs multi and jet instruction and ME Inst Rating Examiner [14.5K hrs total].
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Pitch-up Illusion was the cause of GulfAir 072 in Bahrein. It can be a very overpowering illusion. It's lost many USN airplanes.
.
Pitch-up Illusion was the cause of GulfAir 072 in Bahrein. It can be a very overpowering illusion. It's lost many USN airplanes.
Perhaps if the posters had been clearly labeled with their qualifications, more thought would have gone into why they had introduced their post.
Anyway, this kind of discussion gives reminders, and interesting new details, that may be vital to us one dark and stormy night. I wish I had such a forum in the bad old days of ‘shut the hangar door!' outside duty hours.
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From The Times, today;
How dumb can you get?
“Mum called ten minutes before the expected landing time to say the plane was about to land — she already had a phone signal,” said Akop Akopyan, as he awaited news of his mother,
How dumb can you get?
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Originally Posted by fyrefli
Do we have anything on the history of the crew? Bearing in mind the location of the incident, are Unctuous and Overtalk also intimating that the difference between Soviet-style and Western (for want of better descriptions) artificial horizon displays might come into play here?
Cheers,
Rich.
Cheers,
Rich.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
As SLF I am wary of making a contribution in R&N. However, I have been to Adler and the place (please understand that I am speaking as a scientist, not an aviator) did strike me as being more challenging then average with regard to the weather. Behind the airport, which is almost at sea level, is the western edge of the Caucasus Mountains, rising quickly to in excess of 1000m.
To give some background, at the moment I am working on a paper looking at some unusual characteristics of storms in Black Sea area. Specifically, I am looking at the Rostov Region area, where the topography does not complicate the issue. One factor I note is the very localised intense downdraughts that are not necessarily coincident with an active cell. It is reasonable to hypothesize that this characteristic will equally apply in Krasnador Region, and that the mountains may even exacerbate this characteristic.
As a non-aviator I can offer no opinion on cause of this tragedy, and note the previous comments about how easy it is to quickly use weather as a thoughtless and 'media friendly' cause. However, if this information is helpful in any way I trust you will forgive my visit to R&N!
Suffice to say, I feel great sadness at this accident and also wish to add my condolences.
To give some background, at the moment I am working on a paper looking at some unusual characteristics of storms in Black Sea area. Specifically, I am looking at the Rostov Region area, where the topography does not complicate the issue. One factor I note is the very localised intense downdraughts that are not necessarily coincident with an active cell. It is reasonable to hypothesize that this characteristic will equally apply in Krasnador Region, and that the mountains may even exacerbate this characteristic.
As a non-aviator I can offer no opinion on cause of this tragedy, and note the previous comments about how easy it is to quickly use weather as a thoughtless and 'media friendly' cause. However, if this information is helpful in any way I trust you will forgive my visit to R&N!
Suffice to say, I feel great sadness at this accident and also wish to add my condolences.
interesting to hear from someone involved with the weather there. I was and am a tad confused by the METAR's coming out of there, going something like BKN006 OVC027CB. Any OVC -- CB condition is something that will catch attention, but a broken layer below that, and the overcast is a bit on the unusual side for this central european met observer.
Can you give a bit more information on this? How would you rate the met conditions as they were reported there with what your experience shows?
Originally Posted by Loose Rivets
The last exchanges are a good reason why a ‘professionals only forum' might help in this type of discussion.
Best regards
AN2 Driver
I Have Control
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Cellphones, peut-etre?
Mobile phones should be confiscated from pax before flight, nicely of course, then tagged, receipted, and returned after flight. Possession and use during flight should then become 2 levels of criminal offence. Worldwide. Action ICAO. And IATA. Now.
This is not to implicate mobile messages directly with this sad accident
BUT I have experienced circumstantial evidence of FCU inputs bringing erratic outcomes in terms of the a/c obeying inputs, commensurate with mobile ringtones received in out headphones. Requires swift intervention.
This is not to implicate mobile messages directly with this sad accident
BUT I have experienced circumstantial evidence of FCU inputs bringing erratic outcomes in terms of the a/c obeying inputs, commensurate with mobile ringtones received in out headphones. Requires swift intervention.
Still behind the curtain
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[QUOTE=RoyHudd]Mobile phones should be confiscated from pax before flight,
So, what do you propose to do? Name tag all 150 or so phones on a short flight or all 400+ on a jumbo. I can just see the departure procedure.
So, what do you propose to do? Name tag all 150 or so phones on a short flight or all 400+ on a jumbo. I can just see the departure procedure.
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On my flight a couple of days ago I (once again) forgot to switch my mobile off. So realising this I switched it off and simultaneously the autopilot disconnected. Not fiction but fact from a 20+year airline captain.
And this was on a clasic B737. So beware, there's always something waiting to surprise you.
And this was on a clasic B737. So beware, there's always something waiting to surprise you.
Still behind the curtain
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This is a story of a sorry Armenian flight and not mobile phones. We've had threads up the hilt about cell/mobile phones and this thred should not start to wander toward that.