BA's Fuel Policy & League Tables, safe or not?
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BA's Fuel Policy & League Tables, safe or not?
I fly for BA.
We are under constant pressure to carry the legal minimum ammount of fuel fuel.
A recentlt introduced procedure is to ACARS the crew if the projected ZFW has dropped with around half an hour to departure, so that we can reduce our fuel onload even further.
A colleague flying SYD-BKK recently was faced with a tricky diversion and landed in Phuket with 2 Tonnes remaining.......not a lot in a B744. Oh and he had elected to take extra fuel..............2 tonnes extra!
Also, in addition to the constant pressure to reduce fuel carriage to the minimums, BA also keeps, and publishes, a "League Table" to highligh to pilots how their excess fuel carriage compares to their colleagues.
Of course that is "excess" departure fuel, not "excess" arrival fuel!!
What do the other professionals on this forum think of BA's policy? How does it compare to your airline?
We are under constant pressure to carry the legal minimum ammount of fuel fuel.
A recentlt introduced procedure is to ACARS the crew if the projected ZFW has dropped with around half an hour to departure, so that we can reduce our fuel onload even further.
A colleague flying SYD-BKK recently was faced with a tricky diversion and landed in Phuket with 2 Tonnes remaining.......not a lot in a B744. Oh and he had elected to take extra fuel..............2 tonnes extra!
Also, in addition to the constant pressure to reduce fuel carriage to the minimums, BA also keeps, and publishes, a "League Table" to highligh to pilots how their excess fuel carriage compares to their colleagues.
Of course that is "excess" departure fuel, not "excess" arrival fuel!!
What do the other professionals on this forum think of BA's policy? How does it compare to your airline?
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I don't know why you're worrying about the new ZFW procedure. I have yet to meet a single 747 pilot or any dispatcher who has seen fuel reduced in this way. It just doesn't happen. If you don't like the fuel figure take more. I always do and have never been overruled by another crew member except to take even more extra fuel. The BKK incident is unfortunate but having your destination close due weather and your alternate close due to a broken aircrft on the same day is hardly something you can plan for except by choosing another alternate, an option which remains open to you at the briefing stage by simply asking for a flight plan with a different alternate. I have never had one refused. In short, if you want more fuel, take more. If you worry about league tables then join the majority of your colleagues who give them the scant attention they deserve.
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Don`t know why you are so worried , 5 years on the airbus , l/h seat , always take a sensible amount of fuel and could`nt tell you what my special fuel code for the table is , and have never been contacted about my excess fuel
5415N
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In all my years at BA I have NEVER come under any pressure on fuel and only know of 1 individual who has been called to chat about it, and they were renowned for loading fuel even on a CAVOK day all around the destination. Like most BA pilots I don't trust da management as far as I could throw them, but I can't agree with you.
As far at the ZFW policy goes I have never seen anyone use it, it is after all something dreamt up in the office to justify a management uplift
Also could you point me in the direction of where and in which publication BA publishes the so called famous "league table"?
You also ask about other people’s opinion on BAs policy, yet don't give any details on it. What do you think people are?........... Mind readers?
The more I read your post the more I think you’re a journo trawling for information
.
As far at the ZFW policy goes I have never seen anyone use it, it is after all something dreamt up in the office to justify a management uplift
Also could you point me in the direction of where and in which publication BA publishes the so called famous "league table"?
You also ask about other people’s opinion on BAs policy, yet don't give any details on it. What do you think people are?........... Mind readers?
The more I read your post the more I think you’re a journo trawling for information
.
Controversial, moi?
I have been 18 years in BA both SH and LH. I have never had my fuel carriage questioned.
I looked at the fuel tables 5 years ago out of curiosity and know of nobody who reads them let alone takes any notice of them.
It was emphasised during command training to take extra fuel if I felt it was warranted. BA's emphasis is on making everybody aware of the cost implications of excess fuel carriage and use their common sense and experience to make their judgement.
The last minute drop in ZFW procedure is a waste of paper as nobody bothers to implement yet another hare-brained idea from somebody who has only ever flown a desk.
The thread and first post are both stupid and inaccurate.
I looked at the fuel tables 5 years ago out of curiosity and know of nobody who reads them let alone takes any notice of them.
It was emphasised during command training to take extra fuel if I felt it was warranted. BA's emphasis is on making everybody aware of the cost implications of excess fuel carriage and use their common sense and experience to make their judgement.
The last minute drop in ZFW procedure is a waste of paper as nobody bothers to implement yet another hare-brained idea from somebody who has only ever flown a desk.
The thread and first post are both stupid and inaccurate.
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In 7 years with the company I have never met a skipper who didnt take what he (or I) were happy with as a fuel load. I've met about 3 who have seen a fuel table (& that was only for curiosities sake.) Our managers may not be geniuses (!) but they are not daft enough to push people to take less fuel than is necessary.
Edited to say MM - we crossed maybe you were one of the curious ones!
Edited to say MM - we crossed maybe you were one of the curious ones!
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Originally Posted by onanairbus
I fly for BA.
We are under constant pressure to carry the legal minimum ammount of fuel fuel.
We are under constant pressure to carry the legal minimum ammount of fuel fuel.
What BA are doing is preparing, using all the latest technological processes available, an accurate fuel plan taking into account the dynamics.
What is wrong with that?
As to the fuel decision, I never feel any pressure to take Flight Plan Fuel. I see it as a baseline number from which I vary the required fuel load upwards based on sensible crew decisions following a review of the data. In Shorthaul, I regularly came up with reasons to take an extra 10 minutes fuel. In Longhaul, 10 minutes extra fuel is rarely worth it, as you will have burnt about half of it on arrival in carrying it. In LH, your ability to uplift extra fuel can occasionally be limited, but that's a separate issue.
Who do you feel pressurised by? Surely not the management, all they are doing is pointing out the obvious and asking us to make sensible decisions. If someone always takes 'an extra x for mum' when the wx is CAVOK, then the office are right to ask him to explain, imho.
As to league tables, I know there is a folder in ftd, is it ever updated? How do I find out my code? And the answer is don't know and don't care. Adopt the same approach and you'll find there is no pressure.
[edited to add : crossed with the previous 2 posts]
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Airbus
Stop being such a girl about it and worrying about nothing.
I'm BA LHS and have never once been asked to explain my fuel decisions and don't even know what my code is.
As for the ZFW reduction, I have not had a single ACARS at LHR and the ones at JFK have been well after the fueller has gone.
Now, back to saving my pension.
Of course it could be a fishing wind up?
Stop being such a girl about it and worrying about nothing.
I'm BA LHS and have never once been asked to explain my fuel decisions and don't even know what my code is.
As for the ZFW reduction, I have not had a single ACARS at LHR and the ones at JFK have been well after the fueller has gone.
Now, back to saving my pension.
Of course it could be a fishing wind up?
Last edited by BTSM; 27th Apr 2006 at 16:12.
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Often wish I had copied the previous techlog pages from the 777 I operated about four years ago. The aircraft had done ten sectors around Africa and the Middle East carrying our wonderful prime minister. With a variety of management captains the MINIMUM arrival fuel was 30 tons! The interesting one was a ten minute sector with 32 tons remaining. The aircraft arrived at LHR with 36 tons.
We almost didn't have to refuel for our sector!
One rule for them, one for us!
We almost didn't have to refuel for our sector!
One rule for them, one for us!
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FLWM Don't think anyone is scrapping, just sorting out a misunderstanding
and if you can read I think you will find the only one not singing from the same sheet is the starter of the thread
and if you can read I think you will find the only one not singing from the same sheet is the starter of the thread
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Don't let yourself be pressurised.
The company I work for produces a league table about once a year. It's quite interesting to see how much fuel others (but no names given) carry back to home base. There is no pressure on individuals after the list is published, and even if there was I assume that anybody worth their salt would ignore it. Only the captain, on the day, can decide what is an acceptable fuel load for the flight.
I can't see any harm in any company giving you it's best estimate of ZFW. We get our ZFW on the cirrus flight plan just like BA, because we are a franchise that has eleected to use the FICO/sword/cirrus system. FICO doesn't appear to allow for number of children booked, which means that a school holiday flight to a holiday destination like Canaries will typically be 2 tons (out of 15 tons) lighter than the latest FICO prediction. So, it is quite normal to load less fuel than suggested on the Cirrus after a double check with the red cap in these exceptional circumstances. Surely it's part of good flight planning to obtain the best guess at ZFW, because the fuel burn depends on it - especially on long flights.
So, well done BA for trying to give an accurate ZFW. Pity that the atmosphere and culture of intimidation makes some nervous about carrying out their normal duties.
The company I work for produces a league table about once a year. It's quite interesting to see how much fuel others (but no names given) carry back to home base. There is no pressure on individuals after the list is published, and even if there was I assume that anybody worth their salt would ignore it. Only the captain, on the day, can decide what is an acceptable fuel load for the flight.
I can't see any harm in any company giving you it's best estimate of ZFW. We get our ZFW on the cirrus flight plan just like BA, because we are a franchise that has eleected to use the FICO/sword/cirrus system. FICO doesn't appear to allow for number of children booked, which means that a school holiday flight to a holiday destination like Canaries will typically be 2 tons (out of 15 tons) lighter than the latest FICO prediction. So, it is quite normal to load less fuel than suggested on the Cirrus after a double check with the red cap in these exceptional circumstances. Surely it's part of good flight planning to obtain the best guess at ZFW, because the fuel burn depends on it - especially on long flights.
So, well done BA for trying to give an accurate ZFW. Pity that the atmosphere and culture of intimidation makes some nervous about carrying out their normal duties.
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Hey, onanairbus,
Why don't you engage brain before posting. If you think you are under pressure to operate to some management edict, and you feel troubled by 'it', then go and speak to the people that are driving the initiative. Then, if you feel that, IYHO, pressure is being applied, say so, then either go to BALPA or IPA or call your lawyer. Can I recommend that you do not air your (mis-judged?) washing in public? Fuel is money, so it is no surprise that BA are keen to minimise it's use,what's your problem with that. All of my fuel decisions above cirrus have been supported - without exception. You may be surpised to note that there has been little response to your thread from low-cost operators. I wonder why? Finally, what corellation are you trying to draw between the ZFW ACARS procedure and the BKK 744 diversion?
Nurj
Why don't you engage brain before posting. If you think you are under pressure to operate to some management edict, and you feel troubled by 'it', then go and speak to the people that are driving the initiative. Then, if you feel that, IYHO, pressure is being applied, say so, then either go to BALPA or IPA or call your lawyer. Can I recommend that you do not air your (mis-judged?) washing in public? Fuel is money, so it is no surprise that BA are keen to minimise it's use,what's your problem with that. All of my fuel decisions above cirrus have been supported - without exception. You may be surpised to note that there has been little response to your thread from low-cost operators. I wonder why? Finally, what corellation are you trying to draw between the ZFW ACARS procedure and the BKK 744 diversion?
Nurj
A colleague of mine was convinced that when a league table was being run in my company that he'd beaten the system by carrying as much as he wanted at all times then lowering his average by taking minimum fuel when the company wanted it tankered!!
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onanairbus,
Looks like your BA colleagues do not agree with you on this one. Allow a non-BA flt crew to confirm what your colleagues are saying.
I don't know much about the operations of BA. But I have been exposed to small number of operators and beleive you me most of the respectable airlines, BA been one of them operate in a very similar manner.
If you feel under pressure I am almost certain that YOU are the one pressurizing yourself.
Rules are there to be used as guidelines for the wise but to be followed strictly by idiots.
Looks like your BA colleagues do not agree with you on this one. Allow a non-BA flt crew to confirm what your colleagues are saying.
I don't know much about the operations of BA. But I have been exposed to small number of operators and beleive you me most of the respectable airlines, BA been one of them operate in a very similar manner.
If you feel under pressure I am almost certain that YOU are the one pressurizing yourself.
Rules are there to be used as guidelines for the wise but to be followed strictly by idiots.
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It's just the same out here in the Land of sand, sitting on the stand SDT-30 the ZFW is given to us over the radio and we adjust the fuel load accordingly.
However, we can load more fuel if it's deamed operationally required, ie weather etc.
It does get rather stupid though and it depends who's doing your training, some people adjust it and reduce by even 100kg!
Then some bright spark comes up with the fuel saving idea ( about an egg cup full) of not starting the APU as you taxi in until you are about 2 mins from the stand...great.
Then they leave the APU running all bloody day while the A/C sits at the gate!! That makes sence then.........NOT.
Keep dicovering
However, we can load more fuel if it's deamed operationally required, ie weather etc.
It does get rather stupid though and it depends who's doing your training, some people adjust it and reduce by even 100kg!
Then some bright spark comes up with the fuel saving idea ( about an egg cup full) of not starting the APU as you taxi in until you are about 2 mins from the stand...great.
Then they leave the APU running all bloody day while the A/C sits at the gate!! That makes sence then.........NOT.
Keep dicovering