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eirjet A320 LANDS AT WRONG AIRPORT!

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eirjet A320 LANDS AT WRONG AIRPORT!

Old 1st Apr 2006, 18:06
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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In over 40 years in aviation, military and civil, I knew several pilots who managed to land at the wrong airport. In none of those cases were they the sort of guy that you would expect to make that mistake.

The moral to that story is that if it can happen to them you had better believe that it can happen to you... and keep checking.

as for "Ruthless", I am reminded of the advice that it is sometimes better to let people think that you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove it beyond all doubt!
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 19:20
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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d246

I'm not making excuses for them. They landed at the wrong airfield. Can't really hide behind anything there. I've suggested that they made a mistake at an unfortunate time when they were under pressure, and that the bashing they are receiving here is unfair. I'm certainly not suggesting they are above criticism, but that the criticism should come from those who have all the facts of the incident to hand.

As for the rest of your post I'm quite aware of the responsibilities that my job entails and what the passengers expect of the crew, but you have my thanks for the quick refresher course. As you say, I'm sure the Eirjet crew also understand this.

And what they really don't need is to have ridiculous accusations fired at them and inane drivel written in a public forum by the likes of Ruthless, and then have said drivel labelled non-offensive by a fellow professional.

Safe flying to you.

Last edited by BitMoreRightRudder; 2nd Apr 2006 at 08:41.
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 21:49
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Originally Posted by captjns
With charts, and proper briefings, and GPS, how can anyone defend landing at the wrong airport? No excuse and that the bottom line.
As far as I know eirjets aircraft are old A320s without GPS. Mapshift is a possibility. The GPWS has GPS updating fitted whether the FMGC does or not. This said, the resolution on the GPWS (as opposed to that on the FMGC/ND) varies from airport to airport often causing spurious warnings! The runway may not be in the right place on the ND but occasionally is not anyway.Charts and a proper briefing will therefore be of no consequence if it is a visual approach and the runway is in the correct orientation. I'm not defending the guys unconditionlly but there is always a chain of events that cause an incident or accident. Remember all the holes in the cheese lining up? Day 1 on CRM courses!
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 22:55
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Iminent Boner,I take your point but I was trying to highlight that FMGC and GPWS dont always tie up and that therefore GPWS is often spurious.Dme/Dme may not have been avail since the ILS and co-located Dme was off. I have had a 2 mile mapshift before when a Vor/Dme was available( albeit in Spain). If the mapshift was 2 miles at ballykelly ( the BEL being a fair distance down the rd) the runway would neither be in the right place for there nor for Derry airport. I'm not famliar with Derry so maybe there is other navaids for updatin?Granted I'm only speculating but nothing can be ruled out!
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Old 1st Apr 2006, 22:56
  #165 (permalink)  
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I think the non-pilots and the frauds here misunderstand professional pilot's attempt to analyse every single detail of an event such as this.
It is not intended to absolve anyone from blame or to seach for a non-flying scapegoat. The sympathy for the crew involved is genuine and is not meant as a defense or absolution. It is merely a recognition that mistakes happen.
The majority of crews will use an event like this to examine their own thought processes and error trapping procedures to make sure they don't do the same thing. Avaition's record has evolved from a difficult youth into maturity. That is the way it had to be and every investigation ends with recommendations based on the lessons learned, this case will be no different.
The media and the world at large, when it takes it's annual look at us, will want to see a single individual making a single error as being responsible. They can then package it in broadsheet and even boardroom form and pat themselves on the back that they found the culprit.
The rest of us will look a lot longer and try to figure out why the system allowed this to happen.
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 01:27
  #166 (permalink)  
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eire757 do you know if the database included the destination, if it wasn't this could be another complication that we can learn from.
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 01:52
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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If you're going to get a mapshift, it will be to a more correct position once the ILS beam has been picked up. A clue here!

Anyway, Ryanair flights have always been landing at wrong airports. You should see the look on their passenger's faces when they land at Hahn and are told how far it is to Frankfurt.
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 08:21
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Isn't there a case for putting the ICAO airport code on the runway?

Neighbouring airports may well have runways with similar orientation, so the basic 2-digit numbering is surely insufficient - as this case shows.
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 08:59
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Why are we talking about mapshift here? Absolute Bolleux. I knew that old chesnut would rear its head...

Simple fact is, and it does pain me slightly to say this, they f*****d up and thats the end of story.
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 09:14
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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You lot are pathetic, afraid to hear the truth so you ban the one person, Ruthless, from talking sense in this forum.
I fail to see how anyone can have sympathy for these 2pilots. Why try and defend the fact that these "professionals" have made a huge error. It's like a bus or train driver arriving at the wrong destination and everyone saying, "Oh it's ok, he's stressed, let's forget about it". It's laughable.
If you were on a GFT and the examiner asked you to fly to say, Cambridge and you arrived at Stansted, do you think he'd just say, "It's ok you've still passed because I feel sorry for you"? It doesn't happen so why are you intent on defending these people. The fact that there were no injuries to anyone on board or on the ground os pure luck, nothing to do with pilot skill, as in my view these pilots have no skill. However, would you people still be defending them had there been an accident?
I feel these pilots need complete retraining or, if the job is too stressful for them, just off.
Thanks, SB
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 09:27
  #171 (permalink)  

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Baloney1

It strikes me that most contributors on this thread are NOT professional pilots. What are they doing here? Their contributions are frankly worthless. There are many websites and chat rooms for people who are not professional pilots and wish to talk about flying matters. There are other places on this website. But I am afraid that this thread has been totally devalued by the mis-informed rantings and ravings written. I am starting to wish that I had not contributed to the site, because it has been hi-jacked by fools. I wished to learn, or at least read an educated debate. This is nothing of the sort.

Time for a pprune2, Danny!
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 09:38
  #172 (permalink)  

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SillyBoy,

When was the last time you made a mistake?

AND Don't say you don't!

We are human, we make mistakes and I'm sure, as well self-professed expert, you can trace the "Error Chain" in the incident.

Disciplinary action is there to punish and rehabilitate:-

Punishment enough to walk into the crew room and face all your mates, more than adequate?

Rehabilitate, you can bet your pension those two lads will never make the same mistake?

MP
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 09:59
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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How can you have an educated debate in here when it appears everyone is siding with the 2pilots and nobody is allowed to say a bad word against them? When someone says a bad word against them, like myself or ruthless, we are deemed idiots, trolls etc. Seems there is no room for debate when people have already made there minds up and are unwilling to listen to the sad fact that the pilots made a huge error, there should be no sympathy, just punishment, there are plenty of other fully qualified "professionals" out there that would jump at the chance of having there job, if they can't be bothered to carry each flight out accurately and successfully, bearing in mind the level at which they are working and the amount they are being paid then there is no room for them in this line of work. I suggest they go back to Sunday afternoon flying round the circuit somewhere, venturing outside the circuit is obviously beyond them as they can't navigate.
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 10:18
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Silly Boy

Have you never encountered the mind set phenomenon? The guys were planning to land - it may have been that they had never been to Derry before - and at a crucial point in the procedure were distracted. The mind set " I am landing" still existed;ergo, they landed. Of course there may have been other factors involved. For example, Eirjet use EAG charts,not Aerad or Jepps. I have used all 3 types at various times and the EAG charts are by far and away the least user friendly.Additionally they lack the detail of Jepp and Aerad.Think contributory factor here.

The whole essence of modern aviation CRM is founded not on Draconian punishment but in understanding and identifying the causes of the problem and taking steps to educate and inform to avoid recurrence.

An error occurred; let's wait until all the facts are known and the investigation identifies the causal factors and makes recommendation on avoiding a recurrence.

Blame the pilot is just too easy.
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 11:31
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What worries me about this event is that there appears to be a lack of attention to detail. Any carrier's flight landing at the wrong airport has to be seen as a failure of standard operating procedures.
Is this incident indicative of a greater malaise within the airline. I believe business has not been too good recently for Eirjet and staff morale is rumoured to be very low.
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 13:01
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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About time Danny, Some one need to put a few peeps in place!

My a/c has Proline 21 and should we have to perform G/A, to do say a Visual circuit to land. With 3 key strokes I can change the data displayed on the PFD to Visual approach data information. Extended centre line, glideslope info etc
Which I might add is hardly taxing on the PNF.
Different story if you are in the sim and in the G/A they fail an engine together with the flap failure and for good measure a PFD failure. Vis drops to 500RVR and Cloud base 300 feet you know the score
Is this possible to put Visual information with the A320?
Oh and what about the Boeing? can you get Visual data information
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 13:05
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it would be a few more than 3 keystrokes but you can still give yourself an extended centreline on the boeing......... If you were truly "visual" though.....?
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 13:38
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Been away for a few days hiding from the paparazzi Astonished to see how this thread has snowballed in the meantime. Glad to see that the majority of professional pilots agree with my sentiments - there but for the grace of God,etc. There are one or two posters I would prefer not to fly with. They show an unhealthy amount of hubris (look it up).

Will all the PPLs and PC pilots please keep their half-baked opinions to themselves. I am just a non-current Cessna 150 driver (I've flown a DH Hornet Moth, though - gleam of pride) so I wouldn't presume to criticise professional pilots. I know from long experience, however, that they are human like the rest of us. I have saved quite a few of their reputations from runway and sometimes airfield mis-identifications. One of them was a Royal Flight aircraft ... Nor did I mean to criticise my fellow ATCO at Derry. He was evidently distracted at the wrong moment.

This is no derelict wartime airfield with cows wandering about. I flew from there a few years back in a Lynx and the runway was an impressive piece of concrete and obviously still is.

About time to wind this thread up, I think, and wait for the official investigation. As a young controller once said to me a after a minor cock-up "Oh well, nobody died!" There's a much more interesting thread about Liverpool ATC ...
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 13:42
  #179 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Yer Man
What worries me about this event is that there appears to be a lack of attention to detail. Any carrier's flight landing at the wrong airport has to be seen as a failure of standard operating procedures.
Is this incident indicative of a greater malaise within the airline. I believe business has not been too good recently for Eirjet and staff morale is rumoured to be very low.
Since when is a failure of SOP have anything to do with malaise within the airline? I think you will find pilots will fly their trips to the best of their ability regardless of whatever the condition of their carrier is.
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Old 2nd Apr 2006, 14:53
  #180 (permalink)  

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Exclamation

The time really has come for me to put my foot down. Silly Boy/Ruthless, yes, one and the same person, is NOT an airline pilot and has NO airline experience. A quick review of his/her posts reveals that we have yet another wannabe trying to pretend to be something they are not. In this case, trying to be clever and insulting at the same time. Well, you are not going to ruin these forums for those of us who do the job and are in a position to debate and discuss this incident.

So, go back to studying for your fATPL exams and worry about whether your 75% pass mark will hinder you in your search for a job. You are not in a position to criticise these pilots. If the rest of us who have an understanding of what it must have been like for them want to discuss it then we will. Once you, Ruthless/Silly Boy get your first jet job, then perhaps you will be able to take part in these discussions and have some understanding about what could have caused this crew to make the mistake they did.

Not everyone is 'siding with them'. Those that have bad words to say about them are at least as qualified as they are and not some trumped up wannabe who thinks that because they have done some theory exams and flown a single engined Cessna or Piper from A to B to C with an examiner that that gives them some right to pretend that they have reached the experience level to have an opinion. We, and I mean the 'we who have some experience in the job of flying jets from A to B for pay', can at least understand how this incident happened. It doesn't mean that we are infallible ourselves and we care to try and understand how it all went wrong so that 'WE' can avoid the same mistake ourselves one day.

What Eirjet decide to do with the pilots is up to them. When wannabes like Silly Boy/Ruthless get their first experience of an LPC in a real sim, we'll see how perfect he/she is then. Until you have been through the wringer and have an understanding of how these mistakes can happen you'd be well advised to crank that neck in a few notches because as was mentioned earlier in this thread, it is always very easy for those of us in the job to spot the pretenders who mess up threads like this for the rest of us.
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