Danger in the skies
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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I imagine it's because IPA issued a press release. Anyone who suggests that BALPA have been doing nothing is either ignorant or mischievious.
This, I think is an open link to BALPA's view:
http://www.balpa.org./intranet/BALPA...-Air/index.htm.
As a matter of interest I went throught 10 pages of Google and still couldn't find the IPA as a UK pilots organisation. Do they have a website?
This, I think is an open link to BALPA's view:
http://www.balpa.org./intranet/BALPA...-Air/index.htm.
As a matter of interest I went throught 10 pages of Google and still couldn't find the IPA as a UK pilots organisation. Do they have a website?
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The IPA website is:
www.ipapilot.com
On a more light-hearted note, could it be the after-effects of baked beans at breakfast time causing the foul odours.
Sorry, just made it home and am half dead....
www.ipapilot.com
On a more light-hearted note, could it be the after-effects of baked beans at breakfast time causing the foul odours.
Sorry, just made it home and am half dead....
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Thanks Speedbird-400,
Nothing on that about toxic fumes. Seems the BALPA site shows a far greater understanding of the problem. I wonder if the IPA nicked the BALPA facts?
Nothing on that about toxic fumes. Seems the BALPA site shows a far greater understanding of the problem. I wonder if the IPA nicked the BALPA facts?
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Cabin air linked to DVT, says study
http://abc.net.au/science/news/healt...sh_1588439.htm
Low cabin air pressure and poor oxygenation enhance the risk of deep-vein thrombosis (DVT) in susceptible passengers, a study suggests.
Until now, DVT has been most widely associated with remaining inactive for long periods, like in the cramped conditions of an aircraft cabin.
But a study in today's issue of The Lancet journal suggests there may be additional risk factors.
DVT occurs when a clot forms in leg veins during periods of sedentary activity. The clot can then migrate to the heart, lung or brain, sometimes days or weeks later, and inflict a heart attack or stroke.
Even though the phenomenon has been known since World War II, it has in recent years become a major issue for the airline industry, through lawsuits in which people who have had DVT place the blame on cramped economy seating in long flights.
The airlines retort that DVT can occur long after a flight, which thus makes it impossible to establish a link, and point out that clotting can occur in other forms of sedentary activity, even from sitting and reading a book.
The latest research puts the ball back into the airlines' court, pointing the finger at cabin air quality as a potential risk factor.
A team led by Professor Frits Rosendaal of Leiden University Medical Center in the Netherlands, monitored levels of a key clotting protein called thrombin-antithrombin (TAT) complex among 71 healthy men and women aged 20-39.
A total of 40% of the people in the study were selected as they took the contraceptive pill, had a gene variation called factor V Leiden, or both, conditions which greatly increase the risk of blood clotting.
Continues...
Low cabin air pressure and poor oxygenation enhance the risk of deep-vein thrombosis (DVT) in susceptible passengers, a study suggests.
Until now, DVT has been most widely associated with remaining inactive for long periods, like in the cramped conditions of an aircraft cabin.
But a study in today's issue of The Lancet journal suggests there may be additional risk factors.
DVT occurs when a clot forms in leg veins during periods of sedentary activity. The clot can then migrate to the heart, lung or brain, sometimes days or weeks later, and inflict a heart attack or stroke.
Even though the phenomenon has been known since World War II, it has in recent years become a major issue for the airline industry, through lawsuits in which people who have had DVT place the blame on cramped economy seating in long flights.
The airlines retort that DVT can occur long after a flight, which thus makes it impossible to establish a link, and point out that clotting can occur in other forms of sedentary activity, even from sitting and reading a book.
The latest research puts the ball back into the airlines' court, pointing the finger at cabin air quality as a potential risk factor.
A team led by Professor Frits Rosendaal of Leiden University Medical Center in the Netherlands, monitored levels of a key clotting protein called thrombin-antithrombin (TAT) complex among 71 healthy men and women aged 20-39.
A total of 40% of the people in the study were selected as they took the contraceptive pill, had a gene variation called factor V Leiden, or both, conditions which greatly increase the risk of blood clotting.
Continues...
the lunatic fringe
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Low cabin air pressure and poor oxygenation
The latest research puts the ball back into the airlines' court
It seems to me that the only solution is either for the airlines never to fly above sea level, or fly with no passengers.
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It always amuses me to see how DVT / Cabin air issues can effect passengers so badly after what is probably a reasonably brief exposure.
What about the poor old pilots who have to sit in these conditions for most of their lives.
Surely their health is of equal concern?
What about the poor old pilots who have to sit in these conditions for most of their lives.
Surely their health is of equal concern?
Originally Posted by Dream Buster
It always amuses me to see how DVT / Cabin air issues can effect passengers so badly after what is probably a reasonably brief exposure.
What about the poor old pilots who have to sit in these conditions for most of their lives.
Surely their health is of equal concern?
What about the poor old pilots who have to sit in these conditions for most of their lives.
Surely their health is of equal concern?
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Yes, check the forums -- pilots get DVT too; but their seats are big enough for them to stretch their legs, and many more passengers seem to suffer from it.
It's an interest article, but I'd be hesitant as accepting it by itself as the gospel truth.
Still, it's provocative, and I don't think the 'only' solution is 'don't carry passengers at altitude.'
For one, I'd suggest looking at the history of pressurization and recirculation on passenger aircraft. My limited understanding is that the cabin pressure at altitude today is pretty much what it was 30 years ago. What's changed is the increase in cabin air recirculation, so that these days you see a complete change of cabin air in something like 16 minutes, whereas in the pre-deregulation generations of jets (There is not necessarily a link, but heating all the air takes fuel) it was more like 8 minutes. Add to that the increases in space efficiency, and the O2 content of a current-generation cabin may be far below what it was in the seventies.
My wild-ass guess would be that cabin pressure levels were established with an eye towards providing comfortable and safe amounts of oxygen assuming a certain rate of air turnover and a certain number of persons per volume of air. Decades of engineering improvements have reduced the air turnover and volume per person in the name of "economic optimization", and now the system is showing the signs of failure.
Or I could be dead wrong. If so, feel free to send me an economy ticket to Australia on an A380-900, level 2, row 63, seat L.
It's an interest article, but I'd be hesitant as accepting it by itself as the gospel truth.
Still, it's provocative, and I don't think the 'only' solution is 'don't carry passengers at altitude.'
For one, I'd suggest looking at the history of pressurization and recirculation on passenger aircraft. My limited understanding is that the cabin pressure at altitude today is pretty much what it was 30 years ago. What's changed is the increase in cabin air recirculation, so that these days you see a complete change of cabin air in something like 16 minutes, whereas in the pre-deregulation generations of jets (There is not necessarily a link, but heating all the air takes fuel) it was more like 8 minutes. Add to that the increases in space efficiency, and the O2 content of a current-generation cabin may be far below what it was in the seventies.
My wild-ass guess would be that cabin pressure levels were established with an eye towards providing comfortable and safe amounts of oxygen assuming a certain rate of air turnover and a certain number of persons per volume of air. Decades of engineering improvements have reduced the air turnover and volume per person in the name of "economic optimization", and now the system is showing the signs of failure.
Or I could be dead wrong. If so, feel free to send me an economy ticket to Australia on an A380-900, level 2, row 63, seat L.
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Originally Posted by Dream Buster
It always amuses me to see how DVT / Cabin air issues can effect passengers so badly after what is probably a reasonably brief exposure.
What about the poor old pilots who have to sit in these conditions for most of their lives.
Surely their health is of equal concern?
What about the poor old pilots who have to sit in these conditions for most of their lives.
Surely their health is of equal concern?
Fair point, and worthy of further investigation especially if you can answer "Yes" to each of the following questions:-
1. Do you sit in exactly the same type of seat as the pax?
2. Do you have to store your briefcase and overcoat in front of your feet for the duration of the flight?
3. If you want to get up and stretch your legs do you have to ask two other people to move out of the way first?
4. Does the glareshield jam itself against your knees as soon as you extinguish the seatbelt lights?
5. Do you have the same legroom as pax?
6. Do you have to wait until a mask drops from the cockpit ceiling before you can supplement your oxygen intake?
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Interesting thread.
I know one pilot who got blood clots in his lungs from flying 767's. It can happen to anyone.
I was lucky to fly the DC9 which didn't have recirculation of air and I enjoyed the air for the most part on the old 9. also, the 9's legs at about an hour each allowed for stretching the legs as one did the walk around.
On the 9 there were actually small places one could put their feet on the instrument panel...actually designed that way.
I AM NOT A DOCTOR, but if I were flying long legs I would drink lots of water, walk around and take an aspirin or two to keep the blood moving...AGAIN I AM NOT A DOCTOR.
Please note that Boeing is going to max out their cabin altitude on the new 787 at 6000' instead of the present 8000'.
j
I know one pilot who got blood clots in his lungs from flying 767's. It can happen to anyone.
I was lucky to fly the DC9 which didn't have recirculation of air and I enjoyed the air for the most part on the old 9. also, the 9's legs at about an hour each allowed for stretching the legs as one did the walk around.
On the 9 there were actually small places one could put their feet on the instrument panel...actually designed that way.
I AM NOT A DOCTOR, but if I were flying long legs I would drink lots of water, walk around and take an aspirin or two to keep the blood moving...AGAIN I AM NOT A DOCTOR.
Please note that Boeing is going to max out their cabin altitude on the new 787 at 6000' instead of the present 8000'.
j
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fumes
I flew the C130 for a number of years. Did anyone else notice from time to time a strong smell? All doors shut and pressurised. It was sort of paraffinny and stuck to your clothes?? 
Ah yes. They all did that. It's a feature sir. Nothing to worry about. It's like the odorant they put in natural gas to tell you not to strike a match right at this minute. Just a timely reminder that you are not in the sim but in the real thing.
Well that's all right then.
How clever of Lockheed to put a pipe between Mr Allison's wonderful engines and the cabin air system. That BAe and even Mr Boeing appear to have followed suit just goes to prove how non-injurious the whole nonsense is. Far better to keep fumes INSIDE the airframe than have them outside in the open air where they would merely aggravate global warming and further deplete the ozone layer.
Presumably the Royals don't notice it in the BAe146 because the whole world smells to them of fresh paint anyway.
Ah yes. They all did that. It's a feature sir. Nothing to worry about. It's like the odorant they put in natural gas to tell you not to strike a match right at this minute. Just a timely reminder that you are not in the sim but in the real thing.
Well that's all right then.
How clever of Lockheed to put a pipe between Mr Allison's wonderful engines and the cabin air system. That BAe and even Mr Boeing appear to have followed suit just goes to prove how non-injurious the whole nonsense is. Far better to keep fumes INSIDE the airframe than have them outside in the open air where they would merely aggravate global warming and further deplete the ozone layer.Presumably the Royals don't notice it in the BAe146 because the whole world smells to them of fresh paint anyway.
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Originally Posted by jmc-man
I'm sorry to do this, but this is utter and complete crap, and the result of a hugely misguided campaign by the pilots unions.
Three Pilots ( Yes, I mean that, THREE Pilots) have been directly responsible for filing 98% of these reports of fumes.
JMC-man
Three Pilots ( Yes, I mean that, THREE Pilots) have been directly responsible for filing 98% of these reports of fumes.
JMC-man
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Fumes in 146
It is history that pilots in OZ have receiv
ed loss of licence payouts for respira
tory problems several years ago. There is one unfortuna
te fellow who has lung cancer. Coincidence?
How many of your 146 flying mates have a persistent cough?
ed loss of licence payouts for respira
tory problems several years ago. There is one unfortuna
te fellow who has lung cancer. Coincidence?
How many of your 146 flying mates have a persistent cough?
Moderator
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One Captain on my fleet been off for over 6 months with DVT, and one of my friends (longhaul copilot) diagnosed just a fortnight ago with same, good job his wife forced him to go to the doctors.
That's only the two I know of for sure, but have heard of at least two more cases. Percentage-wise versus exposure compared to pax numbers carried versus their individual exposure? A greater mathematical mind than I required there...
That's only the two I know of for sure, but have heard of at least two more cases. Percentage-wise versus exposure compared to pax numbers carried versus their individual exposure? A greater mathematical mind than I required there...
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I know I'll get flamed
Sick Squid
You are a moderator and have my profound admiration.
And you (appear) to accept the fact that DVT does really exist, not only amongst those consigned to cattle class but the flight deck as well.
Thank you. Thank you very much. I've been banging away at this subject (it seems) for eons but to no avail.
IMHO international air travel (as it is organised now) does not have to be so catastrophic healthwise.
The aveage sector length is 7 hours. Let transit people get off the aeroplane and book into an hotel with a bed and a shower, a proper meal and a nights sleep.
Is it going to cost the airline more? NO!! Most waypoits have waiting lists for people who want to join transit flights.
Do you really have to be with your daughter in Australia in 22 hours or could you not wait for three days?
I used to work on passenger ships in the days before the 747 f****d us. You didn't get air/travel rage then
You are a moderator and have my profound admiration.
And you (appear) to accept the fact that DVT does really exist, not only amongst those consigned to cattle class but the flight deck as well.
Thank you. Thank you very much. I've been banging away at this subject (it seems) for eons but to no avail.
IMHO international air travel (as it is organised now) does not have to be so catastrophic healthwise.
The aveage sector length is 7 hours. Let transit people get off the aeroplane and book into an hotel with a bed and a shower, a proper meal and a nights sleep.
Is it going to cost the airline more? NO!! Most waypoits have waiting lists for people who want to join transit flights.
Do you really have to be with your daughter in Australia in 22 hours or could you not wait for three days?
I used to work on passenger ships in the days before the 747 f****d us. You didn't get air/travel rage then
