UPS smoke/fire landing at PHL
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None,
Did you listen to the recording?
To my untrained ear the switch from "right" to "left" in a high stress situation was not all that clear. As in I would have expected the pilot to be told something like "Cancel clearance to land on 27R... You are now cleared to land on 27L"
Anyway it ended well and they didn't have to go around as 27R was clear.
Did you listen to the recording?
Which aspect of the event needs clarification for you?
Anyway it ended well and they didn't have to go around as 27R was clear.
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very interested
thanks. I listened. I love it how ATC always wants SOB's and fuel...and then doesn't know to ask for POUNDS of fuel up front.
by the way, they ask for fuel in pounds to know how big a mess the CFR people will have to deal with.
I see too that UPS was quite lucky to be so close to the airport when the problem happened. tell me, is there anything on TRACON frequency concerning the emergency?
regards
jon
thanks. I listened. I love it how ATC always wants SOB's and fuel...and then doesn't know to ask for POUNDS of fuel up front.
by the way, they ask for fuel in pounds to know how big a mess the CFR people will have to deal with.
I see too that UPS was quite lucky to be so close to the airport when the problem happened. tell me, is there anything on TRACON frequency concerning the emergency?
regards
jon
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ps
I only listened once and believe ATC screwed up as UPS checked on freq for 27right...27left is longer and perhaps atc thought they would want that for the problem.
you have to catch that sort of thing early though. all of this on the back side of the clock too.
jon
I only listened once and believe ATC screwed up as UPS checked on freq for 27right...27left is longer and perhaps atc thought they would want that for the problem.
you have to catch that sort of thing early though. all of this on the back side of the clock too.
jon
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Originally Posted by very_interested
None,
Did you listen to the recording?
To my untrained ear the switch from "right" to "left" in a high stress situation was not all that clear. As in I would have expected the pilot to be told something like "Cancel clearance to land on 27R... You are now cleared to land on 27L"
Did you listen to the recording?
To my untrained ear the switch from "right" to "left" in a high stress situation was not all that clear. As in I would have expected the pilot to be told something like "Cancel clearance to land on 27R... You are now cleared to land on 27L"
There were a lot of other items on the recording that could have made the "untrained ear" curious, so I was not sure which got your attention.
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Yep, the controller was probably trying to help by switching to the longer runway but the swap was pretty late in the game. Both he and the crew were definitely busy in the last minute or so. Good call to stick with 27R on short final I would say.
You can hear the PNF giving a couple of voice calls over the radio (e.g. "500 feet, on speed, sink 8"), they had O2 masks on for the smoke at that point. The interphone/radio switches and usually a separate mask/mic switch have to be manipulated correctly in most planes when you have the masks on, a definite distraction in an emergency.
On the next part of the audio archives at 0000 local you can hear the tower report the almost immediate crew evacuation to the rescue personnel.
You can hear the PNF giving a couple of voice calls over the radio (e.g. "500 feet, on speed, sink 8"), they had O2 masks on for the smoke at that point. The interphone/radio switches and usually a separate mask/mic switch have to be manipulated correctly in most planes when you have the masks on, a definite distraction in an emergency.
On the next part of the audio archives at 0000 local you can hear the tower report the almost immediate crew evacuation to the rescue personnel.
Last edited by Airbubba; 8th Feb 2006 at 22:06.
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Originally Posted by jondc9
DC8-71-73 thrust reversers in air.
OK boys and girls we have one for and one against. Anyone who has actually flown the DC8 71-73 series want to weigh in here?
I recall a friend who flys at UPS saying that the TR's could be used while airborne (inboard) but that they only help a little.
I have flown the DC9 and 737 (and some other jets) but not the DC8.
Someone who really knows, please tell us all.
regards
jon
OK boys and girls we have one for and one against. Anyone who has actually flown the DC8 71-73 series want to weigh in here?
I recall a friend who flys at UPS saying that the TR's could be used while airborne (inboard) but that they only help a little.
I have flown the DC9 and 737 (and some other jets) but not the DC8.
Someone who really knows, please tell us all.
regards
jon
"UPS 748
Sn45948 line#321 date of manufacture OCT 10, 1967
N8955U Saturn Airways del 12.28,1067
Seaboard World Airlines leased 1,20,1975
EFS Bahamas Ltd sub-lease 9,1,1976
Seaboard World returned 4,1,1977
Trans International Airlines returned? 4,25,1977
Capitol International Airways leased 10,26,1977
Trans International returned 1,24,1978
N862FT Flying Tigers leased 2,1,1978
Emery Worldwide sub-leased 8,20,1982
Flying Tigers returned 4,26,1984
Transamerica Airlines returned? 12,30,1984
UPS bought 5,16,1985
Converted to DC-71CF 8,1985
Reregistered N748UP 9,1985
From Jet Airliner Production List JR Roach A B Eastwood"
Wearing our smoke goggles makes it difficult to be understood on the interphone and to have a good instrument scan etc-distracting also.
Very good job UPS pilots!
Those FEDEX pilots who dived into Stewart years ago barely made it out of their DC-10 as the smoke thickened.
Someone made an excellent observation about overwater flights-ditching in the pitch-black night (low vis? landing lights not available if emergency power required...inflatable raft location?) onto large waves as hard as concrete? Water temperatures?
This can easily happen on a passenger plane. They also carry cargo. Read up on the Valuejet disaster.
Very good job UPS pilots!
Those FEDEX pilots who dived into Stewart years ago barely made it out of their DC-10 as the smoke thickened.
Someone made an excellent observation about overwater flights-ditching in the pitch-black night (low vis? landing lights not available if emergency power required...inflatable raft location?) onto large waves as hard as concrete? Water temperatures?
This can easily happen on a passenger plane. They also carry cargo. Read up on the Valuejet disaster.
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I have listened to it a few more times and my now trained ears (trained by you guys) make me want to say to the UPS crew " I would fly as cargo with you anytime!"
Aw.. that call from Tower telling them they are cleared for left and it appears you are lined up for right. Wouldn't it make a professional pilot yell, "Freeze the sim!!!!"
(smoke sensor alarm, smoke on flight deck, masks and hoods on, can't see squat, and now you advise us we are lined up on the wrong runway!!!! ) all in less than 5 minutes!
Even more impressed than I was before.
Aw.. that call from Tower telling them they are cleared for left and it appears you are lined up for right. Wouldn't it make a professional pilot yell, "Freeze the sim!!!!"
(smoke sensor alarm, smoke on flight deck, masks and hoods on, can't see squat, and now you advise us we are lined up on the wrong runway!!!! ) all in less than 5 minutes!
Even more impressed than I was before.
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Incommunicado + Long Range Intercom
From the Tower tape. Nothing much changes over the years:
..........a. Fire and crash go incommunicado as soon as they hit the road
..........b. Fire and crash start wanting the gory detail (fuel in lbs) despite the crew being in extremis and on late finals (i.e. busy). Their priorities are a trifle skewed.
..........c. Going on oxy/smoke mask automatically means one man will end up on long-range intercom
But otherwise sensibly handled by all.
Started about 5 mins before landing, a visible flamer on finals. .... and over four hours to extinguish it. Goes to show how much chance you'd have if you were oceanic.
Starting to sound like a bulk Lithium battery cargo - or something similar.
..........a. Fire and crash go incommunicado as soon as they hit the road
..........b. Fire and crash start wanting the gory detail (fuel in lbs) despite the crew being in extremis and on late finals (i.e. busy). Their priorities are a trifle skewed.
..........c. Going on oxy/smoke mask automatically means one man will end up on long-range intercom
But otherwise sensibly handled by all.
Started about 5 mins before landing, a visible flamer on finals. .... and over four hours to extinguish it. Goes to show how much chance you'd have if you were oceanic.
Starting to sound like a bulk Lithium battery cargo - or something similar.
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The FedEx guys at Stewart were nickeled and dimed by the NTSB on such technicalities as not calling out the formal name of the emergency evacuation checklist. From the Flight Safety Foundation report in the link posted earlier:
"...Finally, the CVR transcript indicates that the captain did not call for an emergency evacuation. (After the captain said, ‘We need to get [the ***k] out of here,’ the flight engineer said, ‘Emergency ground egress.’)"
However, the FedEx captain's persistance in getting the aircraft on the ground quickly saved the crew, even if they missed some checklist items. In the old days, i.e. a decade ago, we would often go into holding in the sim to complete lengthy fire of unknown origin checklists. Now the drill is do as much as you can on the way down and land ASAP.
ETOPS does address fire detection and surpression, don't know if this includes cargo planes. As mentioned, the DC-8 is not ETOPS anyway and is perhaps grandfathered under some old certification rules from the 1960's. This PHL incident would have been a nightmare at 30 West or NIPPI.
"...Finally, the CVR transcript indicates that the captain did not call for an emergency evacuation. (After the captain said, ‘We need to get [the ***k] out of here,’ the flight engineer said, ‘Emergency ground egress.’)"
However, the FedEx captain's persistance in getting the aircraft on the ground quickly saved the crew, even if they missed some checklist items. In the old days, i.e. a decade ago, we would often go into holding in the sim to complete lengthy fire of unknown origin checklists. Now the drill is do as much as you can on the way down and land ASAP.
ETOPS does address fire detection and surpression, don't know if this includes cargo planes. As mentioned, the DC-8 is not ETOPS anyway and is perhaps grandfathered under some old certification rules from the 1960's. This PHL incident would have been a nightmare at 30 West or NIPPI.
Originally Posted by Airbubba
The FedEx guys at Stewart were nickeled and dimed by the NTSB on such technicalities as not calling out the formal name of the emergency evacuation checklist. From the Flight Safety Foundation report in the link posted earlier:
"...Finally, the CVR transcript indicates that the captain did not call for an emergency evacuation. (After the captain said, ‘We need to get [the ***k] out of here,’ the flight engineer said, ‘Emergency ground egress.’)"
However, the FedEx captain's persistance in getting the aircraft on the ground quickly saved the crew, even if they missed some checklist items. In the old days, i.e. a decade ago, we would often go into holding in the sim to complete lengthy fire of unknown origin checklists. Now the drill is do as much as you can on the way down and land ASAP.
"...Finally, the CVR transcript indicates that the captain did not call for an emergency evacuation. (After the captain said, ‘We need to get [the ***k] out of here,’ the flight engineer said, ‘Emergency ground egress.’)"
However, the FedEx captain's persistance in getting the aircraft on the ground quickly saved the crew, even if they missed some checklist items. In the old days, i.e. a decade ago, we would often go into holding in the sim to complete lengthy fire of unknown origin checklists. Now the drill is do as much as you can on the way down and land ASAP.
didn't that change a tad after the SR111 disaster? I think I heard that some of the blame put onto that captain by the NTSB was quietly shifted after that accident.
I guess that particular accident was a wake up call to many who were advocating prolonged checklist work at the suspicion of fire. I recall that in the aftermath people were quite a bit readier to get on the ground pronto at the slightest indication of something amiss. And not a minute too early too. Particularly the plight of the crew of SR111 should make it abundantly clear that a fire, even only a suspected fire without any warning and indications, is reason enough to get it into the next airport and find out what's cooking....
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FAA Preliminary Report
Regis#: 748UP Make/Model: DC87 Description: DC-8-70
Date: 02/08/2006 Time: 0125
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: PHILADELPHIA State: PA Country: US
DESCRIPTION
N748UP, A UNITED PARCEL SERVICE BOEING/DOUGLAS DC-8-71F ACFT, REPORTED
SMOKE IN THE COCKPIT ON LANDING, CREW EVACUATED, ACFT CAUGHT FIRE, NO
INJURIES REPORTED, PHILADELPHIA, PA
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: NOT REPORTED
OTHER DATA
Departed: Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: Flt Plan: Wx Briefing:
Last Radio Cont:
Last Clearance:
FAA FSDO: PHILADELPHIA, PA (EA17) Entry date: 02/08/2006
Date: 02/08/2006 Time: 0125
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: PHILADELPHIA State: PA Country: US
DESCRIPTION
N748UP, A UNITED PARCEL SERVICE BOEING/DOUGLAS DC-8-71F ACFT, REPORTED
SMOKE IN THE COCKPIT ON LANDING, CREW EVACUATED, ACFT CAUGHT FIRE, NO
INJURIES REPORTED, PHILADELPHIA, PA
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: NOT REPORTED
OTHER DATA
Departed: Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: Flt Plan: Wx Briefing:
Last Radio Cont:
Last Clearance:
FAA FSDO: PHILADELPHIA, PA (EA17) Entry date: 02/08/2006
FoxHunter:
Many thanks for confirming that the DC-8-70 series can indeed use reverse in the air. I admit to being surprised for I was told that the practice had ceased many years ago.
Do many DC-8 operators out there still use reverse in the air as an SOP procedure?
Many thanks for confirming that the DC-8-70 series can indeed use reverse in the air. I admit to being surprised for I was told that the practice had ceased many years ago.
Do many DC-8 operators out there still use reverse in the air as an SOP procedure?
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Originally Posted by JW411
FoxHunter:
Many thanks for confirming that the DC-8-70 series can indeed use reverse in the air. I admit to being surprised for I was told that the practice had ceased many years ago.
Do many DC-8 operators out there still use reverse in the air as an SOP procedure?
Many thanks for confirming that the DC-8-70 series can indeed use reverse in the air. I admit to being surprised for I was told that the practice had ceased many years ago.
Do many DC-8 operators out there still use reverse in the air as an SOP procedure?
FoxHunter:
Many, many thanks for that. I hadn't realised that the DC-8 had no speed brakes.
We had speedbrakes on the DC-10 but we tried hard not to use them and definitely not if flap had already been selected (flaps behind speedbrakes).
At least we could throw the wheels out at 300 knots and that could be very useful on occasion!
Many, many thanks for that. I hadn't realised that the DC-8 had no speed brakes.
We had speedbrakes on the DC-10 but we tried hard not to use them and definitely not if flap had already been selected (flaps behind speedbrakes).
At least we could throw the wheels out at 300 knots and that could be very useful on occasion!
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HazMats, ETOPS and UPS
It's not surprising that other posters have expressed concern about the likely results of an incident like this on a transoceanic flight.
For the record, UPS's Web site clearly states that UPS will not transport packages with contents determined by the US Department of Transportation to be "hazardous materials" beyond the 50 states and Puerto Rico.
It's worthwhile noting that if this incident does indeed lead to UPS's first hull loss, then it will be the first aircraft loss in the company's 98-year history.
Well done to the crew. I do hope they are able to put their feet up for a while and enjoy a refreshment or two before their next roster.
For the record, UPS's Web site clearly states that UPS will not transport packages with contents determined by the US Department of Transportation to be "hazardous materials" beyond the 50 states and Puerto Rico.
It's worthwhile noting that if this incident does indeed lead to UPS's first hull loss, then it will be the first aircraft loss in the company's 98-year history.
Well done to the crew. I do hope they are able to put their feet up for a while and enjoy a refreshment or two before their next roster.
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Originally Posted by peterbuckstolemymeds
...UPS's first hull loss, then it will be the first aircraft loss in the company's 98-year history.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19850131-0
They also had a serious MD-11 incident last year at Louisville, but the aircraft was repaired.
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Originally Posted by Golf Charlie Charlie
Apparently not <url snipped>
They also had a serious MD-11 incident last year at Louisville, but the aircraft was repaired.
They also had a serious MD-11 incident last year at Louisville, but the aircraft was repaired.
While I don't have any personal knowledge of the Louisville incident, nor have I any reason to doubt the veracity of the report you linked to, if - as you state - "the aircraft was repaired" then that would mean it was not a hull loss.
I reiterate that UPS has not had a hull loss incident in 98 years. If the Philly event marks the first hull loss, then it will be the first hull loss for that company. Period.