El Al passenger flies with gun to New York
Join Date: May 2000
Location: South of 0°
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Er.... .Maybe that's why El Al still uses armed security officers (or Sky Marshals as you prefer) in every flight? In case the profiling and x-rays and all other things fail?
I can't think of what would happen if the guy tried to use the weapon in flight.
AB
I can't think of what would happen if the guy tried to use the weapon in flight.
AB
Join Date: May 1999
Location: TMI
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’m not aware of any intelligence on Timothy McVeigh before the Oklahoma City bombing that showed him to be a security risk.
There is no evidence that McVeigh ever belonged to any extremist groups. His only known affiliations were as a registered Republican and as a member of the National Rifle Association.
The facts show that before entering the Army he worked as security guard. While in the Army he was promoted to corporal, sergeant, then platoon leader. After leaving the Army he returned to working as security guard. Don’t take my word for it. Look it up yourself. Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, was a security guard. . . . .If you believe profiling is the way to go, maybe we should be profiling security guards. . . . .Security guards like McVeigh don’t have to be willing to die for a cause to be a risk. All they need do is open the door for those who are.
El Al uses a system much like the proposed “Trusted Passenger” ID card to speed up the security screening process. These “Trusted Passengers” are given just a cursory check. Some of them may accidentally bring a firearm onboard like this man did. Do you think terrorists see a weakness here? It looks to me like their best chance of getting a weapon onboard would be with one of those trusted passenger ID cards.
I know profiling very well. I’m singled out from other “Trusted” employees every time I come to work. I’m searched for weapons, toenail clippers, tweezers, ect, because I’m a pilot. Your assumption that profiling would be effective assumes a level of logic that’s just not present here. When a disgruntled airport worker brought a gun onboard a flight in California and shot the pilots to death the government’s response was to make pilots go through security screening. Airport workers were still allowed to come in the backdoor with lord knows what. This is life Through the Looking Glass.
There is no evidence that McVeigh ever belonged to any extremist groups. His only known affiliations were as a registered Republican and as a member of the National Rifle Association.
The facts show that before entering the Army he worked as security guard. While in the Army he was promoted to corporal, sergeant, then platoon leader. After leaving the Army he returned to working as security guard. Don’t take my word for it. Look it up yourself. Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, was a security guard. . . . .If you believe profiling is the way to go, maybe we should be profiling security guards. . . . .Security guards like McVeigh don’t have to be willing to die for a cause to be a risk. All they need do is open the door for those who are.
El Al uses a system much like the proposed “Trusted Passenger” ID card to speed up the security screening process. These “Trusted Passengers” are given just a cursory check. Some of them may accidentally bring a firearm onboard like this man did. Do you think terrorists see a weakness here? It looks to me like their best chance of getting a weapon onboard would be with one of those trusted passenger ID cards.
I know profiling very well. I’m singled out from other “Trusted” employees every time I come to work. I’m searched for weapons, toenail clippers, tweezers, ect, because I’m a pilot. Your assumption that profiling would be effective assumes a level of logic that’s just not present here. When a disgruntled airport worker brought a gun onboard a flight in California and shot the pilots to death the government’s response was to make pilots go through security screening. Airport workers were still allowed to come in the backdoor with lord knows what. This is life Through the Looking Glass.
I had an arsehole transplant but the arsehole rejected me, which is why I write such rubbish
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain;
. .You state that security at most U.S airports is a farce and very little profiling. Form personal experience, I must disagree. If you want to experience your own little slice of hell, may I suggest you follow the these criteria:
1) Buy an Internet Special Ticket on Wednesday and look forward to the search on Saturday.
2) Buy a one-way ticket and prepare to arrive 3 hours early for your flight and follow instructions in #1.
3) Buy a one-way ticket with cash at the airport and be sure to wear lose fitting clothing because most of it is coming off during your upcoming search. Add 1 additional hour to #2.
4) Look in anyway like a non-U.S citizen and follow the instructions in #2.
. .Sad, but true. Effective, who knows. Fair, not exactly. Profiling, certainly.
. .Whatshouldiuse
. .You state that security at most U.S airports is a farce and very little profiling. Form personal experience, I must disagree. If you want to experience your own little slice of hell, may I suggest you follow the these criteria:
1) Buy an Internet Special Ticket on Wednesday and look forward to the search on Saturday.
2) Buy a one-way ticket and prepare to arrive 3 hours early for your flight and follow instructions in #1.
3) Buy a one-way ticket with cash at the airport and be sure to wear lose fitting clothing because most of it is coming off during your upcoming search. Add 1 additional hour to #2.
4) Look in anyway like a non-U.S citizen and follow the instructions in #2.
. .Sad, but true. Effective, who knows. Fair, not exactly. Profiling, certainly.
. .Whatshouldiuse
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Out West
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Profiling is as old as time and is an inherent part of our natural skills for survival. We have modern day detectives that specialize in the science of profiling; does that make them racist? Absolutely not.
The press has everyone in a tizzy over profiling because they keep slipping the word racial in front of it, and the public in their quest to understand complicated issues in 9 seconds or less have reduced a modern day science into a farcical racial mud slinging contest. Profiling is multi-faceted and is not based on how an individual looks or walks. It is supposed to be based on multiple criteria with things such as how and when an airline ticket is purchased, what are the travel habits, how is the documentation, how do they respond to questioning etc.
Unfortunately our single tier approach to airport security has come to depend on single answer issues. i.e. Ticket purchased full fare, one day prior for one way trip, holder of ticket is Airline Captain on duty just arrived from an operating flight and now must deadhead… Yikes! He fits the profile according to the ticket; search him (don’t bother checking his I.D. etc…).
The Israeli’s have this one right. If we are going to base airline security solely on eliminating all objects that can be used as some form of weapon in an aircraft; we’re doomed, as this approach is un-achievable.. . -----------------------------------------
The press has everyone in a tizzy over profiling because they keep slipping the word racial in front of it, and the public in their quest to understand complicated issues in 9 seconds or less have reduced a modern day science into a farcical racial mud slinging contest. Profiling is multi-faceted and is not based on how an individual looks or walks. It is supposed to be based on multiple criteria with things such as how and when an airline ticket is purchased, what are the travel habits, how is the documentation, how do they respond to questioning etc.
Unfortunately our single tier approach to airport security has come to depend on single answer issues. i.e. Ticket purchased full fare, one day prior for one way trip, holder of ticket is Airline Captain on duty just arrived from an operating flight and now must deadhead… Yikes! He fits the profile according to the ticket; search him (don’t bother checking his I.D. etc…).
The Israeli’s have this one right. If we are going to base airline security solely on eliminating all objects that can be used as some form of weapon in an aircraft; we’re doomed, as this approach is un-achievable.. . -----------------------------------------
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Out West
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fresh off the press, an article in the Intenational Herald Tribune...
<a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/46839.html" target="_blank">Flyer's Private Lives Face New Screening</a>
<a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/46839.html" target="_blank">Flyer's Private Lives Face New Screening</a>
Eight Gun Fighter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Western Approaches
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"These “Trusted Passengers” are given just a cursory check. Some of them may accidentally bring a firearm onboard like this man did."
Someone who doesn't know where his gun is, at all times. Yeah, I trust him. The moron.
That said, El Al is on the right track.
If you want good security, you select, you train, you pay decently. You have a multi-layered system. You check out the pax in various ways, you check-out airport employees, you secure the airport and you ensure the aircraft are security checked regularly.
Complacency will always be the enemy and the downfall and is usually all too evident.
Someone who doesn't know where his gun is, at all times. Yeah, I trust him. The moron.
That said, El Al is on the right track.
If you want good security, you select, you train, you pay decently. You have a multi-layered system. You check out the pax in various ways, you check-out airport employees, you secure the airport and you ensure the aircraft are security checked regularly.
Complacency will always be the enemy and the downfall and is usually all too evident.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
Join Date: May 1996
Location: UK
Age: 68
Posts: 16,637
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
whatshouldiuse, what you have posted is exactly what I mean by a farce. All that effort based solely on the fact of where, when or how the ticket was purchased.
The delays and inconvenience caused by this sole method of searching everyone without any form of profiling for the sake of political correctness which then causes massive delays and hold ups because grandma Jones has to take her shoes off and open her bag to have her nail clippers confiscated.
I have been through US security since Sept 11th, as crew, in uniform and although the people at security were efficient and polite, even apologetic, it was obvious that the exercise was more than just a bit cosmetic. It is the stories coming from other crew about the outrageously idiotic actions of some security personnel, without any logic applied to the situation that is the main reason I am condemning the present system of only stopping weapons and not the users of them from boarding.
Without wanting to get this thread way off course, with regard to Timothy McVeigh, maybe I am getting my wires crossed but I did see a programme on some fo the possible intelligence failures but it may have been about the search for him after the attack and not before. Besides, he did not try to do what the Al Quaida terrorists did and so is not necessarily relevant. If there was proper and well trained profilers ti si possible that they may have let someone like him slip through and that is where the second line of defence would have hopefully taken effect. The discovery of explosives or weapons.
I am not saying that profiling is the be all and end all but should certainly play a much more prominent role in an overall solution instead of the current reliance on X-ray machines and metal detectors. Nothing will be 100% effective against terrorists unless you shut down aviation and then you have allowed them win.
The delays and inconvenience caused by this sole method of searching everyone without any form of profiling for the sake of political correctness which then causes massive delays and hold ups because grandma Jones has to take her shoes off and open her bag to have her nail clippers confiscated.
I have been through US security since Sept 11th, as crew, in uniform and although the people at security were efficient and polite, even apologetic, it was obvious that the exercise was more than just a bit cosmetic. It is the stories coming from other crew about the outrageously idiotic actions of some security personnel, without any logic applied to the situation that is the main reason I am condemning the present system of only stopping weapons and not the users of them from boarding.
Without wanting to get this thread way off course, with regard to Timothy McVeigh, maybe I am getting my wires crossed but I did see a programme on some fo the possible intelligence failures but it may have been about the search for him after the attack and not before. Besides, he did not try to do what the Al Quaida terrorists did and so is not necessarily relevant. If there was proper and well trained profilers ti si possible that they may have let someone like him slip through and that is where the second line of defence would have hopefully taken effect. The discovery of explosives or weapons.
I am not saying that profiling is the be all and end all but should certainly play a much more prominent role in an overall solution instead of the current reliance on X-ray machines and metal detectors. Nothing will be 100% effective against terrorists unless you shut down aviation and then you have allowed them win.
Gatvol
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: KLAS/TIST/FAJS/KFAI
Posts: 4,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Someone update us on the pilot who got hooked up for making a comment while going through Security. It happened a couple weeks ago in the U.S. and now all is quiet.. .What little I did hear about the incident leads me to believe he could walk out of this mess with a big paycheck......... .Comments??
Join Date: May 1999
Location: TMI
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No. No big paycheck. In fact, no paycheck at all.
<a href="http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2002/01/30/local_news/PILOT30.htm" target="_blank">Unions blame security problems in firing of pilot after confrontation</a>
<a href="http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2002/01/30/local_news/PILOT30.htm" target="_blank">Unions blame security problems in firing of pilot after confrontation</a>
Gatvol
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: KLAS/TIST/FAJS/KFAI
Posts: 4,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting Article, thanks. But dont jump just yet......There are plenty of Lawyers sitting on the fence to take this case to Trial, and for sure there are more than enough pissed off travelers to sit on a jury..... .Airlines will fire anyone at the drop of the hat as they have a pool of kids just peeing their pants to wear ray bans and have all them stripes. It also makes them look like they are doing "the right thing". Based on what I see in Airline Security I hope this Pilot shoves it hard up their backsides.. .The fat lady hasnt sung yet.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: TMI
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You’re right. I’m sure ALPA lawyers will get him his job back, back pay and more.
Back to the gun on El Al. I’m sure El Al is very good a detecting terrorists. The old adage “it takes one to know one” comes to mind. The nation that now denounces terrorism used it very effectively themselves. The terrorist actions of the <a href="http://etzel.org.il/english/" target="_blank">Irgun</a> go forgotten by many these days. However, the effectiveness and the results they achieved are not lost on today’s terrorists. They see it as a lesson in how to achieve their goals. Now every Arab male between 16 and 60 represents a potential terrorist to them. They spend vast amounts of money on security because they have to. Yesterday’s terrorists are today’s government politicians and they are on the other side of the circle. The circle of “Live by the sword. Die by the sword.” Now they desperately try to keep themselves from being blown up. Strange how history keeps repeating itself.
Profiling separates a group. It treats them as suspects. The more they are subjected to this sort of hostile treatment, the more they see those doing it as the enemy. Hostility is now spread throughout the group, not just the radical fringe. It takes you further away from a place where people can coexist peacefully. Think of the outcry if the British had used profiling to deal with the Irgun. It would have been denounced as anti-Semitism. But it’s okay for El Al to use against Arabs! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I have seen enough of El Al to know that I don’t want to live in a world like that. I certainly wouldn’t point to them as an example of how things should be. What a world. When terrorists can create a nation and then denounce terrorism I have to wonder if even they believe their means justified their ends. No. I think they are hypocrites.
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: LevelFive ]</p>
Back to the gun on El Al. I’m sure El Al is very good a detecting terrorists. The old adage “it takes one to know one” comes to mind. The nation that now denounces terrorism used it very effectively themselves. The terrorist actions of the <a href="http://etzel.org.il/english/" target="_blank">Irgun</a> go forgotten by many these days. However, the effectiveness and the results they achieved are not lost on today’s terrorists. They see it as a lesson in how to achieve their goals. Now every Arab male between 16 and 60 represents a potential terrorist to them. They spend vast amounts of money on security because they have to. Yesterday’s terrorists are today’s government politicians and they are on the other side of the circle. The circle of “Live by the sword. Die by the sword.” Now they desperately try to keep themselves from being blown up. Strange how history keeps repeating itself.
Profiling separates a group. It treats them as suspects. The more they are subjected to this sort of hostile treatment, the more they see those doing it as the enemy. Hostility is now spread throughout the group, not just the radical fringe. It takes you further away from a place where people can coexist peacefully. Think of the outcry if the British had used profiling to deal with the Irgun. It would have been denounced as anti-Semitism. But it’s okay for El Al to use against Arabs! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I have seen enough of El Al to know that I don’t want to live in a world like that. I certainly wouldn’t point to them as an example of how things should be. What a world. When terrorists can create a nation and then denounce terrorism I have to wonder if even they believe their means justified their ends. No. I think they are hypocrites.
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: LevelFive ]</p>
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, but I cannot agree with sheltering the USAir pilot. He started an argument he should not have, and one which he cannot possible win. At security, if you have a problem, call for a supervisor. Bit your tongue until then.
Moderator
[quote]Sorry, but I cannot agree with sheltering the USAir pilot. He started an argument he should not have, and one which he cannot possible win. At security, if you have a problem, call for a supervisor. Bit your tongue until then. <hr></blockquote>
So, his entire life should be ruined because he had an "argument" with a moron? At the very worst, it was a mistake on his part, but, I can understand his frustration. I deal with this nonsense every time I have the audacity to show up for work......
So, his entire life should be ruined because he had an "argument" with a moron? At the very worst, it was a mistake on his part, but, I can understand his frustration. I deal with this nonsense every time I have the audacity to show up for work......
Swounger
Join Date: May 1999
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really Level Five, what are you talking about?. ."Back to the gun on El Al. I’m sure El Al is very good a detecting terrorists. The old adage “it takes one to know one” comes to mind. The nation that now denounces terrorism used it very effectively themselves."
Really level 5, how so?
"The terrorist actions of the Irgun go forgotten by many these days. However, the effectiveness and the results they achieved are not lost on today’s terrorists. They see it as a lesson in how to achieve their goals. Now every Arab male between 16 and 60 represents a potential terrorist to them."
Not all of them, and not all females. But most of them. Face it, it's not 80 year old Japanese women who are bombing their pizzerias, discos, and bat mitzva parties.
"They spend vast amounts of money on security because they have to. Yesterday’s terrorists are today’s government politicians and they are on the other side of the circle."
Of whom do you refer, Level 5?
"Profiling separates a group. It treats them as suspects."
Again--who is it that is committing terrorism in Israel?
"The more they are subjected to this sort of hostile treatment, the more they see those doing it as the enemy. Hostility is now spread throughout the group, not just the radical fringe. It takes you further away from a place where people can coexist peacefully. Think of the outcry if the British had used profiling to deal with the Irgun. It would have been denounced as anti-Semitism. But it’s okay for El Al to use against Arabs!"
That's right---because it's Arabs that are the most likely to blow up El Al. Do you think that's an inaccurate statement?
Really level 5, how so?
"The terrorist actions of the Irgun go forgotten by many these days. However, the effectiveness and the results they achieved are not lost on today’s terrorists. They see it as a lesson in how to achieve their goals. Now every Arab male between 16 and 60 represents a potential terrorist to them."
Not all of them, and not all females. But most of them. Face it, it's not 80 year old Japanese women who are bombing their pizzerias, discos, and bat mitzva parties.
"They spend vast amounts of money on security because they have to. Yesterday’s terrorists are today’s government politicians and they are on the other side of the circle."
Of whom do you refer, Level 5?
"Profiling separates a group. It treats them as suspects."
Again--who is it that is committing terrorism in Israel?
"The more they are subjected to this sort of hostile treatment, the more they see those doing it as the enemy. Hostility is now spread throughout the group, not just the radical fringe. It takes you further away from a place where people can coexist peacefully. Think of the outcry if the British had used profiling to deal with the Irgun. It would have been denounced as anti-Semitism. But it’s okay for El Al to use against Arabs!"
That's right---because it's Arabs that are the most likely to blow up El Al. Do you think that's an inaccurate statement?
