Runway incursion incident at CDG 10/01/06?
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Arc,
Good for you that you can grasp a bit of Brazilian, not me. English isn't my first language either, and I make a point of speaking english only on the radio, although I know enough french and italian too. I do not believe just by changing the hold-short calls and T/O and Ldg clearances will solve any problem on the long term. Today everyone can see what a disastrous situation it can be with runway incursions. Tomorrow language barriers will trigger new situations that we have overlooked for years, maybe because the accident is still too weak to be noticed, or because the traffic has not grown enough yet to reveal the next flaw in dual language operations. Runway incursion is not the ONLY safety factor concerned by language differences.
What Johnbr was referring to in his example (stop me if I misunderstood) is not the problem about the controller who should be able to manage the dual language situation: it is the bloody pilot who elects to speak brazilian, and leaves all other foreign traffic out of the loop!
Another one could be an aircraft on fire on a taxiway, and the pilot calls to stop right away, calls emergency services and firetrucks in his/her native language, while another "foreign language" (english) is on a crossing taxiway in poor visibility. Not aware of the situation the "english" aircraft end kissing the native and burst in flames with it.
Feel free to send donations for this script. I should be writing scenarii for Hollywood!
By the way, congratulations on the french language from which we inherited the PAN-PAN, the english language traded it for a few other ones that the French are using everyday: barbecue, bazooka, blue-jeans, caddie, chips, ketchup, jogging, jackpot, laser, and many more.
Good for you that you can grasp a bit of Brazilian, not me. English isn't my first language either, and I make a point of speaking english only on the radio, although I know enough french and italian too. I do not believe just by changing the hold-short calls and T/O and Ldg clearances will solve any problem on the long term. Today everyone can see what a disastrous situation it can be with runway incursions. Tomorrow language barriers will trigger new situations that we have overlooked for years, maybe because the accident is still too weak to be noticed, or because the traffic has not grown enough yet to reveal the next flaw in dual language operations. Runway incursion is not the ONLY safety factor concerned by language differences.
What Johnbr was referring to in his example (stop me if I misunderstood) is not the problem about the controller who should be able to manage the dual language situation: it is the bloody pilot who elects to speak brazilian, and leaves all other foreign traffic out of the loop!
Another one could be an aircraft on fire on a taxiway, and the pilot calls to stop right away, calls emergency services and firetrucks in his/her native language, while another "foreign language" (english) is on a crossing taxiway in poor visibility. Not aware of the situation the "english" aircraft end kissing the native and burst in flames with it.
Feel free to send donations for this script. I should be writing scenarii for Hollywood!
By the way, congratulations on the french language from which we inherited the PAN-PAN, the english language traded it for a few other ones that the French are using everyday: barbecue, bazooka, blue-jeans, caddie, chips, ketchup, jogging, jackpot, laser, and many more.
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Amigos,
I'm not,in any way,excusing my country's atc,pilots and everybody else involved in aviation for the same difficulties we have with dual language over R/T !!!Sao Paulo area has the most crowded skies in all of Latin America with 3 major airports in it,and YES,it annoys me very much,that almost everybody here elects to speak portuguese in the area.It has nothing to do with CDG,or french,even less with this crap of national pride or identity or culture.Maybe,if we change the topic's name to,lets say,"dual language hazards"we could have some objectivity in this discussion.Dual language ops is dangerous,and I think it is worth the discussion.To be fair to french ATC,they speak very good english,and I wouldn't say the same about some controllers down here,as I've mentioned before in this forum,I've had too many opportunities to help fellow pilots to understand clearences given down here.I firmly believe that the issue here is safety and not winning the argument over french or english or "brazilian",So let's keep our minds open.
P.S. It's been a lot of fun,but still....pointless,hasn't it???
I'm not,in any way,excusing my country's atc,pilots and everybody else involved in aviation for the same difficulties we have with dual language over R/T !!!Sao Paulo area has the most crowded skies in all of Latin America with 3 major airports in it,and YES,it annoys me very much,that almost everybody here elects to speak portuguese in the area.It has nothing to do with CDG,or french,even less with this crap of national pride or identity or culture.Maybe,if we change the topic's name to,lets say,"dual language hazards"we could have some objectivity in this discussion.Dual language ops is dangerous,and I think it is worth the discussion.To be fair to french ATC,they speak very good english,and I wouldn't say the same about some controllers down here,as I've mentioned before in this forum,I've had too many opportunities to help fellow pilots to understand clearences given down here.I firmly believe that the issue here is safety and not winning the argument over french or english or "brazilian",So let's keep our minds open.
P.S. It's been a lot of fun,but still....pointless,hasn't it???
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Pointless.
I suppose the dual language discusion here is pointless.
I have no way of knowing how the collision was averted that day at CDG.
CDG controllers are OK in my book.
But perleeeeease.
could be my neck next.
I suppose the dual language discusion here is pointless.
I have no way of knowing how the collision was averted that day at CDG.
CDG controllers are OK in my book.
But perleeeeease.
could be my neck next.
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Originally Posted by MungoP
"Dual language never killed anyone so far..."
Did someone really say that ? Whoever it was probably resembles a 6ft tall bird with its head firmly buries in the ground...the use of poor English has very definately killed many people and only the French would try to oil their way out of any responsibility for the CDG Streamline collision by stating that the Streamline crew might not have heard the take-off instruction to the other aircraft even if given in English...pathetic comment... I know without any doubt whatsoever that I'm alive today along with probably 100 other people for no better reason than a cloud was no bigger than it was.... had we not popped out of it when we did we would not have missed colliding with another aircraft that had mistakenly been given an approach clearance...in Spanish.
Is that acceptable to you 'dual' language supporters ?....
It's certainly not to me.
Did someone really say that ? Whoever it was probably resembles a 6ft tall bird with its head firmly buries in the ground...the use of poor English has very definately killed many people and only the French would try to oil their way out of any responsibility for the CDG Streamline collision by stating that the Streamline crew might not have heard the take-off instruction to the other aircraft even if given in English...pathetic comment... I know without any doubt whatsoever that I'm alive today along with probably 100 other people for no better reason than a cloud was no bigger than it was.... had we not popped out of it when we did we would not have missed colliding with another aircraft that had mistakenly been given an approach clearance...in Spanish.
Is that acceptable to you 'dual' language supporters ?....
It's certainly not to me.
I'm impressed with so many professional opinions. I believe we all aggree but in CRM terms and Situational Wareness, just very few make the point quite clear. We are professionals of the sky: we pilots, controllers, and the others: We ALL, but ALL, should be a Team for a better and safer sky. Better Safe than sorry.... Quoting with my deepest respect FSF.Let us all, identify the problem listenning to all parties and understand eachother: We may want to say just the same!!! Keep focus, In my my environment, read, arround me 25nm lateral, 10000 ft above or below, same quandrant, I would like to know who's arround - Passive Monitoring- (Remenber very old days of ... Copy trafic information?,-?, )This would, reduce my stress, my fatigue, -Increasing my Wareness- and be nicelly achieved using only one language! And upon deciding which one stick to Doc, 4444 and standard praseologhy! do not invent and do not be shy to ask your other pilot, " What did he say" just before you press the mike .... for... say again congesting the frequency and extend non relevant talking, as we hear all the time.... eg Thank you Mum ... Bye Mum etc thank you sir etc etc. be standard, polite and down to business.
In the time frame deciding which lunguage etc Please use english as in my opinion it will enhance safety.
I'm from Portugal working in Spain and speaking french ,but only at leisure times will use other languages. To add or subtract FRACTIONs all must have same denominator so ENGLISH for time beeing is the best choice.,...just to avoid misunderstandings....
So, be clear - brief your crew- and learn with others and your onwn experiences. Exercise DISCIPLINE!
Pilots controllers two way comm I fully support and Request English no doubt. Full stop.
PS: Respectfully, would friendly accept arguments from professional controllers!
All the best Merci, Thanks, Sallamat, Jingueia, Obrigado, Kopunkap, Dankenwell, Afarostopli, Gracias, Graziemile, Shucran, to you all, keep, it up.
FJP
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Originally Posted by Grandpa
Risk factors are well known:
Huge trafic leading to saturation of Airports (departure, arrival, taxi).
ATC workload..........
You meet it in many places in the world and not only CDG.
Runway incursion at LAX are also frequent.
I have evidence of ATC mistakes in JFK, where dual language wasn't a factor, and still aircrafts were cleared at same time to land/take off/cross the active runway.
The way people here turn it to focus only on French language use in RT is appalling, it seems they fancy all problems would be solved if only these bloody Frenchmen would leave their mother language in the dustbin and speak English, the one and only aviation language.
Then French speakers stand up and instead of a discussion about safety we have a chauvinistic exchange which leads nowhere.
I found very interesting to read the Canadian post which depicted the economic importance of language in Quebec: priority seems to be given to pilots fluent in French to be hired in the Belle Province airlines.
Seems you hit it: the very same people who argue for generalisation of English in non-English speaking territory, would next complain about bad English speakers - sorry I did it myself when flying in USA! - .
Why don't we adress first to risk's factors and struggle against airports saturation or ATC workload...........not to speak about pilots hours of flight and sector's numbers.
Huge trafic leading to saturation of Airports (departure, arrival, taxi).
ATC workload..........
You meet it in many places in the world and not only CDG.
Runway incursion at LAX are also frequent.
I have evidence of ATC mistakes in JFK, where dual language wasn't a factor, and still aircrafts were cleared at same time to land/take off/cross the active runway.
The way people here turn it to focus only on French language use in RT is appalling, it seems they fancy all problems would be solved if only these bloody Frenchmen would leave their mother language in the dustbin and speak English, the one and only aviation language.
Then French speakers stand up and instead of a discussion about safety we have a chauvinistic exchange which leads nowhere.
I found very interesting to read the Canadian post which depicted the economic importance of language in Quebec: priority seems to be given to pilots fluent in French to be hired in the Belle Province airlines.
Seems you hit it: the very same people who argue for generalisation of English in non-English speaking territory, would next complain about bad English speakers - sorry I did it myself when flying in USA! - .
Why don't we adress first to risk's factors and struggle against airports saturation or ATC workload...........not to speak about pilots hours of flight and sector's numbers.
Hei Grandpa, Congratulations,Pilots Flying hours in our days, The joke of regulations of, - THE AVOIDANCE OF FATIGUE IN AIR CREWS-, Finnally I heard someone With same concern also.
Where can we Discuss this?
Risk factors, so many... Good job! Who cares not certaainnly the legislators whom it looks they see nothing!!!
I did like your comment.
PS To come back to this forum topic, English is my bet. I also take this opportunity to salute mr ATC watcher your comments when integrated and revised, UPDATED are great! Good Joob!
We pilots should visit more often your room and consoles as you controllers shoud once in awhile fly with us to make a better team You and Us.
Regards to ALL.
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Originally Posted by Eva San
To everybody, we all have on each side on the mike some interesting (or not?) stories about incidents. The question is should we make a generality out of it ? Can a personal feeling be turned into an indeniable truth ... To some, it looks like Yes. To me...what do you think ?
As a french controller answer in a english speaking forum, do you think that I'm the one to convince about the importance of English ? Same for all the other frenchs in here...
So when a Mr IknowAllAndIDoEverythingBetterThanTheOthersEspeciallyTheFren chs comes into a forum like this one, of course you can expect some chauvinistic reactions and even silly ones ! But where does that get us ? Pretty much nowhere, so could we stop this childish play and try a more subtle approach?
If you really think that dual language operation is a hazard then stop coming in here to waste you time in trying to convince some people who are almost/ already on your side and go for the real target : pilots using french in R/T and the french civil aviation authority...
As a french controller answer in a english speaking forum, do you think that I'm the one to convince about the importance of English ? Same for all the other frenchs in here...
So when a Mr IknowAllAndIDoEverythingBetterThanTheOthersEspeciallyTheFren chs comes into a forum like this one, of course you can expect some chauvinistic reactions and even silly ones ! But where does that get us ? Pretty much nowhere, so could we stop this childish play and try a more subtle approach?
If you really think that dual language operation is a hazard then stop coming in here to waste you time in trying to convince some people who are almost/ already on your side and go for the real target : pilots using french in R/T and the french civil aviation authority...
We listen, Talk and we professionals must understand that sometimes he "SYSTEM" works agnaisnt all of us.Being a Pilot I concurr with your notes. Wheather deviation is not required anymore!!!
Let'us be practical, positive honest and respect you controllers at CDG! I do. I believe now that you may be undergoing yourselves a lot of pressures.
As a Professional, Knowing that ATC Watcher dedicates a lot of himself to aviation flight safety standards makes my day.
And by the way HE is Fully right about the TCAS... We have it on TCAS what is that??? And I hear it a lot! See tandard Fraseologhy.. " Copy the Trafic, looking out or .... Is on TCAS, makes my stomach burning and
Well keep it up
Positive and towards a better safer skies.
Regards to all.
FJP
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I am allways happy when another flightcrewmember points out to me during briefing allready: "hey guys...guess what...i'd like english only today!!" That has been responded sometimes by: "ok happy with that...for the briefing and flight in airplane but the minute we walk out of the airplane either you talk to me in the language of the company (not an english speaking one) OR you don't talk to me (mostly us) AT ALL during layover!"
Usually that calms his fever a bit as worried about having to pay his "pints" (our half liters) alone (with his pounds), eat his "ounces" (our kilos)steack alone, measure his fuel uplift in "gallons-imperial or US ones" (our liters) alone, or drive his rented car on the (w?)right side alone trying to convert the 50km/h into miles...
Can't they do like anybody else?
I speak allways english only on the radio though...for everybody's interest. (except 12345)
Usually that calms his fever a bit as worried about having to pay his "pints" (our half liters) alone (with his pounds), eat his "ounces" (our kilos)steack alone, measure his fuel uplift in "gallons-imperial or US ones" (our liters) alone, or drive his rented car on the (w?)right side alone trying to convert the 50km/h into miles...
Can't they do like anybody else?
I speak allways english only on the radio though...for everybody's interest. (except 12345)
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Interesting regarding reports
I have also flown into CDG a hundreds of times, I recognize the problems of languages differences.
But it's the same in Madrid. I promise you all.
However, writing a report will not solve anything in my opinion. I have filed that kind of reports too many times with no result or action taken. :mad:
Well, how to solve the problem then? I guess that there is no solution, the french will keep on speaking french. And the pilots cannot just stop flying into CGD because of our opinion since our companies would sack us if doing so.
I guess we have to live with it. But hey- keep writing all your reports and with the help of god and the good frech wine, perhaps there will be a better world even in the aviation business at CDG. :(
But it's the same in Madrid. I promise you all.
However, writing a report will not solve anything in my opinion. I have filed that kind of reports too many times with no result or action taken. :mad:
Well, how to solve the problem then? I guess that there is no solution, the french will keep on speaking french. And the pilots cannot just stop flying into CGD because of our opinion since our companies would sack us if doing so.
I guess we have to live with it. But hey- keep writing all your reports and with the help of god and the good frech wine, perhaps there will be a better world even in the aviation business at CDG. :(
