Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
If the French are so concerned about air safety they would be better off targeting the problem of their pilots and ATC using the French language in busy international airspace.
The real reason behind the law was to solve a seniority problem between AF and IT and to make the French Pilots pension fund pay for the redundancy of IT pilots imposed by AF pilots union. Air safety... what a laugh !!!
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Originally Posted by Dani
as everyone else, know, that with age, you are not as good anymore, your mind, your eyes, your whole body. Noone can deny it
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
I cannot believe that some of these younger pilots can be so selfish either. Many of the posters here are from UK where the age is 65 to receive state pension, and government is talking of increasing it to 67. Most of the pilot I know who have had medical problem have had them between 40 and 50 years. The only things that should decide when a pilot have to retire is either when he decides (so if he is lucky and has made enough by 50 he can go then) or if he cannot any more pass medicals or proficiency checks. In Nigeria the medical for over 60 even has pilots to do stress ecg every year. I do training and I have yet to find any pilot over 60 who is not very proficient, they have to be good to have been around that long. As for falling asleep that is laughable - it is the younger pilot I have observed to have difficulty to stay awake because they are often out 'playing', not like we 'old fart' who get our good rest most nights.
Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
I'm one that had to retire at 60. Knowing this, I topped up my pension pot for a number of years with extra payments (foregoing fancy holidays and fancy new cars along the way) and by renewing lapsed ratings a couple of years before the blow fell.
Why did I do this ? Because I'd wanted to fly for as long as I can remember and I didn't want to stop then just because some misconstrued law said I had to.
Now, at 67, I still teach, examine and regularly pull plus 7 and minus 3 and I'm having a ball. And I don't intend to stop yet just.
The difference between Handflying and myself is that I enjoy flying and it doesn't end with the airline job. My flying has been military, commercial instructing, airline ( 22 years command) and back to instructing again.
My one relief at being out of the airline business is that I don't have to fly with misfits like Handfly any more.
Listening to such distractions over a number of sectors are likely to cause more accidents than any 60+ year old skipper.
Why did I do this ? Because I'd wanted to fly for as long as I can remember and I didn't want to stop then just because some misconstrued law said I had to.
Now, at 67, I still teach, examine and regularly pull plus 7 and minus 3 and I'm having a ball. And I don't intend to stop yet just.
The difference between Handflying and myself is that I enjoy flying and it doesn't end with the airline job. My flying has been military, commercial instructing, airline ( 22 years command) and back to instructing again.
My one relief at being out of the airline business is that I don't have to fly with misfits like Handfly any more.
Listening to such distractions over a number of sectors are likely to cause more accidents than any 60+ year old skipper.
Last edited by Sleeve Wing; 11th Jan 2006 at 11:01.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Some of the contributors to this thread should remember that if you check through any pilot crewroom you will find a multitude of different progressions through the profession.
Some started late,some after extensive military service ,some even spent their whole working life with one airline and some worked their way up from the bottom.
Just learn to work within the rules as they are today,lobby to change them if you wish,but don't blame anybody else for your lack of progression.
You will get your chance one day if you work hard and don't get up peoples noses!
Above all enjoy the job, where ever you are on the seniority list, it really is the best.
Happy flying
Some started late,some after extensive military service ,some even spent their whole working life with one airline and some worked their way up from the bottom.
Just learn to work within the rules as they are today,lobby to change them if you wish,but don't blame anybody else for your lack of progression.
You will get your chance one day if you work hard and don't get up peoples noses!
Above all enjoy the job, where ever you are on the seniority list, it really is the best.
Happy flying
Left Seat 747
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Sheesh!
Dear Capt Claret,
Your comment,
"Handflying, your tone puts me in mind of a spoilt child who squawks to get their own way, and I have little doubt that you'll be squawking louder when you're older and have youngsters telling you that you should retire to let them have a go."
I couldn't have said it better.
Skol, you seem to doubt my credentials. Please go to the web site (my-emergency-information.com) or book, Ghauri's Sword I am advertising here at PPRUNE. You will find my bio there. But to answer your question directly, I currently fly all over the world except over the US and my airplanes are long haul 747-200s. My flights include Europe to Asia, Africa to the former USSR, and all points in between. Somehow, in spite of my senility at age 62, I seem to manage a good airplane and most of the FO's I fly with are respectful and eager to learn. I ride a bicycle 7 miles every day I am home, averaging 15 - 16 miles per hour. I wonder if you are in as good a shape as I am?
Your comment,
"Handflying, your tone puts me in mind of a spoilt child who squawks to get their own way, and I have little doubt that you'll be squawking louder when you're older and have youngsters telling you that you should retire to let them have a go."
I couldn't have said it better.
Skol, you seem to doubt my credentials. Please go to the web site (my-emergency-information.com) or book, Ghauri's Sword I am advertising here at PPRUNE. You will find my bio there. But to answer your question directly, I currently fly all over the world except over the US and my airplanes are long haul 747-200s. My flights include Europe to Asia, Africa to the former USSR, and all points in between. Somehow, in spite of my senility at age 62, I seem to manage a good airplane and most of the FO's I fly with are respectful and eager to learn. I ride a bicycle 7 miles every day I am home, averaging 15 - 16 miles per hour. I wonder if you are in as good a shape as I am?
Last edited by Flying Guy; 11th Jan 2006 at 18:48.
Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
I can't find the thread running last year which visited this topic ad naseum.It's all been said before but just to add realism to the kick-em -out corp here is my story...and I know hundreds are like me.
I knew when at age 42 I got my airline seat that in 18 years I would have to hang it up. Since this was a second career change I had already made plans via a private portable pension.
At age 57 I got the news that my financial advisor had cocked up my pension and the well known British firm was washing their hands of it. Oh sh$t at least I've got my 18 year pension coming in 2004. Think again. 2 days prior to my 59th the airline succeeded in terminating our pension. Now I get a stipend from the quasi government organisation set up to protect mill workers but not airline pilots. So with teenagers to educate and a pension 60% less than promised I was out on the street. At almost 62, I'm fit, I'm well and I occasionally fly right seat in a VERY big and VERY expensive jet but I'm not where I should be.... the left seat of an airliner.
Finally I'm not bitching. I have a full time job in the aviation industry and I'll survive. It just burns me that those whining the loudest will be able to fly to a normal pension age.
I knew when at age 42 I got my airline seat that in 18 years I would have to hang it up. Since this was a second career change I had already made plans via a private portable pension.
At age 57 I got the news that my financial advisor had cocked up my pension and the well known British firm was washing their hands of it. Oh sh$t at least I've got my 18 year pension coming in 2004. Think again. 2 days prior to my 59th the airline succeeded in terminating our pension. Now I get a stipend from the quasi government organisation set up to protect mill workers but not airline pilots. So with teenagers to educate and a pension 60% less than promised I was out on the street. At almost 62, I'm fit, I'm well and I occasionally fly right seat in a VERY big and VERY expensive jet but I'm not where I should be.... the left seat of an airliner.
Finally I'm not bitching. I have a full time job in the aviation industry and I'll survive. It just burns me that those whining the loudest will be able to fly to a normal pension age.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Flying Guy,
7 Miles a day? thats good! im 21 and only manage to do about 5 and then abit of swimming each day. I take my hat off to you sir!
I think that DryV1 has summed it up though. Not every young pilot wants to take the place of a 60 year old just because of their age. Life is tough, and you have to work hard and then you will get what you want. And thats the reason why alot of you have enjoyed your careers so much, you have obviously worked at it so hard and now your at the top. Well done to you! Im at the bottom so far, but i hope that one day i will be somewere further up the career ladder than i am now. But i dont want to make you all redundant just bacause of your age, you all have alot of experience behind you which takes time to get. And people can learn from your experience.
Anyways, happy flying all, untill whenever you decide to give it up!
7 Miles a day? thats good! im 21 and only manage to do about 5 and then abit of swimming each day. I take my hat off to you sir!
I think that DryV1 has summed it up though. Not every young pilot wants to take the place of a 60 year old just because of their age. Life is tough, and you have to work hard and then you will get what you want. And thats the reason why alot of you have enjoyed your careers so much, you have obviously worked at it so hard and now your at the top. Well done to you! Im at the bottom so far, but i hope that one day i will be somewere further up the career ladder than i am now. But i dont want to make you all redundant just bacause of your age, you all have alot of experience behind you which takes time to get. And people can learn from your experience.
Anyways, happy flying all, untill whenever you decide to give it up!
Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
On the subject of youngsters falling asleep, I had one manage it between the outer marker and 500 feet on finals and another managed to nod off halfway through the SID he was supposed to be flying!
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
I'm sorry but are we not all missing the point? You plan your retirement with the best information available to you, and within you own personal means. I have a buddy who for Xmas received a seven figure bonus from the city, good for him, but it doesn't mean we should all run to our chief pilot for a bumper end of year bonus.
Experience is needed in this profession, and those who can keep up with the pace until 65 should be welcomed with open arms.
Experience is needed in this profession, and those who can keep up with the pace until 65 should be welcomed with open arms.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
I don't usually like this sort of thing, but on this occasion I think it's an interesting thought:
A dedicated shop steward was at a convention in Las Vegas and decided to check out the local brothels.
When he got to the first one, he asked the madam, "Is this a union house?"
"No, I'm sorry, it isn't" , said the madam.
"Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?" "The house gets $80 and the girl gets $20."
Mightily offended at such unfair dealings, the man stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable shop.
At the second one, he asked the madam, "Is this a union house?"
"No, I'm sorry, it isn't" , said the madam.
"If I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"
"The house gets $80 and the girl gets $20."
Again offended, the man stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable shop. His search continued until he finally reached a brothel where the madam said, "Why yes, this is a union house."
"And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"
"The girls get $80 and the house gets $20."
"That’s more like it!", the man said. He looked around the room and pointed to a stunningly attractive redhead. "I'd like her for the night."
"I'm sure you would, sir", said the madam, gesturing to a fat woman in her fifties in the corner, "but Ethel here is most senior."
Just because you started first doesn't mean you're the most suitable for command (or for a shag for that matter!)
your contract says retire at 55 - go at 55, your contract say retire at 60 go at sixty. nothing in your contract, work till you want.
How can I put this without stirring up too stronger feelings . . . for every day you work extra, your stopping someone elses career - imagine if someone was doing that to you? Care? Perhaps you should.
Thankfully, most of us are too professional to take these feelings onto the flightdeck.
A dedicated shop steward was at a convention in Las Vegas and decided to check out the local brothels.
When he got to the first one, he asked the madam, "Is this a union house?"
"No, I'm sorry, it isn't" , said the madam.
"Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?" "The house gets $80 and the girl gets $20."
Mightily offended at such unfair dealings, the man stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable shop.
At the second one, he asked the madam, "Is this a union house?"
"No, I'm sorry, it isn't" , said the madam.
"If I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"
"The house gets $80 and the girl gets $20."
Again offended, the man stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable shop. His search continued until he finally reached a brothel where the madam said, "Why yes, this is a union house."
"And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"
"The girls get $80 and the house gets $20."
"That’s more like it!", the man said. He looked around the room and pointed to a stunningly attractive redhead. "I'd like her for the night."
"I'm sure you would, sir", said the madam, gesturing to a fat woman in her fifties in the corner, "but Ethel here is most senior."
Just because you started first doesn't mean you're the most suitable for command (or for a shag for that matter!)
your contract says retire at 55 - go at 55, your contract say retire at 60 go at sixty. nothing in your contract, work till you want.
How can I put this without stirring up too stronger feelings . . . for every day you work extra, your stopping someone elses career - imagine if someone was doing that to you? Care? Perhaps you should.
Thankfully, most of us are too professional to take these feelings onto the flightdeck.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Mini mums,
It is really interesting the comparison of our profession with a brothel and all. And maybe we can agree that the companies are brothels. If you want to feel like a whore please go ahead, do it! It is your privilege. I am not, though, and I think most of us in here are not.
Now for the serious part.
The contract says you have a certain amount due every month as a salary. Do you mean that you will not try to increase this amount for the remaining of your flying days?
Or this is your privilege, but not mine to negotiate a change of my/our/your retirement?
Very interesting …
It is really interesting the comparison of our profession with a brothel and all. And maybe we can agree that the companies are brothels. If you want to feel like a whore please go ahead, do it! It is your privilege. I am not, though, and I think most of us in here are not.
Now for the serious part.
The contract says you have a certain amount due every month as a salary. Do you mean that you will not try to increase this amount for the remaining of your flying days?
Or this is your privilege, but not mine to negotiate a change of my/our/your retirement?
Very interesting …
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Originally Posted by Mini mums
for every day you work extra, your stopping someone elses career
Bottums Up
Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
mini mums,
you said,
So what you're saying is that a pilot who works hard to succeed is not stopping another's carreer until the magical and arbitrary day after supposed retirement.
To take your argument about stopping some one elses career to its logical conclusion, if there is a finite number of pilots needed worldwide then every employed pilot is stopping some wannabes career. Therefore all currently employed pilots should retire to let all the wannabes get a job. Then, when the wannabes get the job they'll be stopping some one elses career, so they should all retire to let the next lot of wannabes get a job, and so on.
What a load of toss!
You also sort of asked, care? No I don't care. When I started flying 20 years ago there were more pilots than jobs. Now there are more pilots than jobs. I wasn't owed a job. I kept chasing elusive jobs until I got one. I've worked hard at my career, and I don't owe you or any other wannabe a go at my job, until I no longer want it, or I'm no longer able to do it to a satisfctory standard.
As for the young turks who allude to us oldies being past it because we mightn't have the reflexes of youth, I have two words of wisdom for you.
you said,
How can I put this without stirring up too stronger feelings . . . for every day you work extra, your stopping someone elses career - imagine if someone was doing that to you? Care? Perhaps you should.
To take your argument about stopping some one elses career to its logical conclusion, if there is a finite number of pilots needed worldwide then every employed pilot is stopping some wannabes career. Therefore all currently employed pilots should retire to let all the wannabes get a job. Then, when the wannabes get the job they'll be stopping some one elses career, so they should all retire to let the next lot of wannabes get a job, and so on.
What a load of toss!
You also sort of asked, care? No I don't care. When I started flying 20 years ago there were more pilots than jobs. Now there are more pilots than jobs. I wasn't owed a job. I kept chasing elusive jobs until I got one. I've worked hard at my career, and I don't owe you or any other wannabe a go at my job, until I no longer want it, or I'm no longer able to do it to a satisfctory standard.
As for the young turks who allude to us oldies being past it because we mightn't have the reflexes of youth, I have two words of wisdom for you.
- One day you too will be old and not young.
- When I was young, about 18, I was amazed at how stuipid my father was. He didn't know anything. By the time I was 23 I was even more amazed at how much he had learned!
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Dani,
the links I provided are just the beginning for a comprehensive study.
The extract you cited is from an annotated bibliography, most of wich is controversial, by the way the final report of the study based in part on that bibliography (Hilton Study, CAMI, FAA sposored) says this:
"Hilton Systems replicated and extended analyses from previous studies, including statistical analyses. The report describes outcomes from analyses conducted to answer a series of questions examining the relationship between age and accident rates for pilots holding Class I, Class II and Class III medical certificates. Recent and total flight time are utilized as a measure of risk exposure. The results present a converging body of evidence which fail to support a hypothesis that accident rates increase at or about the age of 60 years."
See also:
DOT/FAA/AM 94/22
TITLE: Age 60 Rule Research, Part III: Consolidated Database Experiments Final Report, ADA286247
AUTHORS: Kay, E.J., Harris, R.M., Voros, R.S., Hillman, D.J., Hyland, D.T., and Deimler, J.D.
the links I provided are just the beginning for a comprehensive study.
The extract you cited is from an annotated bibliography, most of wich is controversial, by the way the final report of the study based in part on that bibliography (Hilton Study, CAMI, FAA sposored) says this:
"Hilton Systems replicated and extended analyses from previous studies, including statistical analyses. The report describes outcomes from analyses conducted to answer a series of questions examining the relationship between age and accident rates for pilots holding Class I, Class II and Class III medical certificates. Recent and total flight time are utilized as a measure of risk exposure. The results present a converging body of evidence which fail to support a hypothesis that accident rates increase at or about the age of 60 years."
See also:
DOT/FAA/AM 94/22
TITLE: Age 60 Rule Research, Part III: Consolidated Database Experiments Final Report, ADA286247
AUTHORS: Kay, E.J., Harris, R.M., Voros, R.S., Hillman, D.J., Hyland, D.T., and Deimler, J.D.
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
Someone has clearly never had a flame out in a first generation jet and had to call upon the dinosaur to the left to save his puckered up bu*t ... Captains of the third age deserve the homage and respect that befits their experience ..
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
hi, the real fact is that the industry,the system doesn't care of the newbees getting their seat or f/o's their upgrade. The truth is that the money it's over. They want us to keep pulling and pushing the stick on and on, and so paying taxes, because they don't have the money for our pensions.
The real heaven would be being able to retire at 50, with the pension as of 70, healthy like at 20!!!!
The real heaven would be being able to retire at 50, with the pension as of 70, healthy like at 20!!!!
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
MINI MUMS: On that line of thought, you might well end up in a "brothrel'. Not only contracts, salaries, rules and regulations but, also 'labour agreements, change or are redefined ! Yes, a lot of us did sign an agreement. It never mentioned for 'ever'!!! Times change and by the way, the place you mentioned are now called 'Houses of leisure'!
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Re: Stop The Law Project To Let Pilot Work Until 65 Years Old
OK - who banned Angelopinto? 
This was just becoming fun - OK, off to JB, then...
Empty
This was just becoming fun
- OK, off to JB, then...Empty