Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
Ladies and Gents, me and a colleague were involved in a diversion of an oceanic outbound from LFPG to KIAD this afternoon which unfortunately had to diverte to EGKK for a medical emergency.
It was a COA 777 which was obviously still quite fat with fuel so had to dump for twenty mins before continuing to EGKK. What a shame the only available place to dump was over the west midlands as the nearest water was some distance away.
Now, the information I'm after is, what, from a pilots point of view, would you like us as controllers to do with aircraft that aren't dumping but are going to have to pass reasonably close to the area where fuel dumping is occuring.
Obviously you wouldn't be vectored underneath the area, but how do you feel about being descended on top of a dumping aircraft? What about being vectored to go at least 5 miles behind where the dumping aircraft has just passed and many more scenarios I can't think of a the moment.
The reason I'm after some info is that our training doesn't really cover the area of fuel dumping very well. All we are told that fuel dumping should occur over the sea if possible and above 8000ft agl in the summer or 10000ft agl in the winter and that's it.
Any pointers would be great.
Ps I hope the poor guy on the plane with the medical problem isn't too serious.
It was a COA 777 which was obviously still quite fat with fuel so had to dump for twenty mins before continuing to EGKK. What a shame the only available place to dump was over the west midlands as the nearest water was some distance away.
Now, the information I'm after is, what, from a pilots point of view, would you like us as controllers to do with aircraft that aren't dumping but are going to have to pass reasonably close to the area where fuel dumping is occuring.
Obviously you wouldn't be vectored underneath the area, but how do you feel about being descended on top of a dumping aircraft? What about being vectored to go at least 5 miles behind where the dumping aircraft has just passed and many more scenarios I can't think of a the moment.
The reason I'm after some info is that our training doesn't really cover the area of fuel dumping very well. All we are told that fuel dumping should occur over the sea if possible and above 8000ft agl in the summer or 10000ft agl in the winter and that's it.
Any pointers would be great.
Ps I hope the poor guy on the plane with the medical problem isn't too serious.
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I certainly wouldn't want to be vectored 5 miles behind a dumping aircraft! Thats barely a minute behind him! Over the top sounds fine as long as he's not descending in a holding pattern whilst dumping. Ditto for descending on top. Also if he's dumping in a know area I'd rather go upwind than downwind of that area if possible.
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Did some research via Boeing:
In a nutshell, dispersion is very quick. In one test, fuel was dumped on a bush fire type situation from 500 ft. No effect whatsoever. Most regs require a height of 5000 ft to make sure it doesn't reach the groung except in a highly dispersed state. In addition fuel is 'dumped' in small quantities in the flight refuelling process. The aircraft are generally close behind the tanker. Again no problem.
It is more of a piece of mind issue.
In a nutshell, dispersion is very quick. In one test, fuel was dumped on a bush fire type situation from 500 ft. No effect whatsoever. Most regs require a height of 5000 ft to make sure it doesn't reach the groung except in a highly dispersed state. In addition fuel is 'dumped' in small quantities in the flight refuelling process. The aircraft are generally close behind the tanker. Again no problem.
It is more of a piece of mind issue.
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FAA give guides lines as follows
Separate known aircraft from the aircraft dumping fuel as follows:
IFR aircraft by one of the following:
1. 1,000 feet above it; or in accordance with Vertical Separation Minima, whichever is greater.
2. 2,000 feet below it.
3. 5 miles radar.
4. 5 miles laterally.
Info taken from here
Separate known aircraft from the aircraft dumping fuel as follows:
IFR aircraft by one of the following:
1. 1,000 feet above it; or in accordance with Vertical Separation Minima, whichever is greater.
2. 2,000 feet below it.
3. 5 miles radar.
4. 5 miles laterally.
Info taken from here
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Used to do "dump loops" 
in single seat RAF type i.e. turn dumps on, do a loop and "join the trail" and fly in the (still visible) fuel. JPT/EGT went up a few degrees. Complete non-event...
I would have thought apply normal separation would suffice...
NoD
in single seat RAF type i.e. turn dumps on, do a loop and "join the trail" and fly in the (still visible) fuel. JPT/EGT went up a few degrees. Complete non-event...I would have thought apply normal separation would suffice...
NoD
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From memory in Maastricht UAC airspace, pretty much as Engineer said, plus where possible over water, 2000ft vertical sep. below the aircraft dumping. Advice to use greater sep. than minimum as the dumping a/c may switch off R/T and transponders.
(Amaxing how quickly one forgets these things; two years ago I could have quoted chapter and verse)
(Amaxing how quickly one forgets these things; two years ago I could have quoted chapter and verse)
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Sometimes intake of fuel will cause more than just a "hick-up." Back in 1983 one of our A-4s blew up due to fuel ingestion while tanking off a KC-135. That particular A-4 had a straight probe which put it right in front of the intake. We modified all our A-4s to bent probes after that mishap. (P.S. both guys made it out OK)
Only half a speed-brake
Rhino et al:
What are the fuel dumping rates/flows? My aircraft does not have the capability (i.e. not needed at max TOW). But if you need to loose 50 or 5 tonnes, how fast can you achieve it?
Yours FD
(the un-real)
Yours FD
(the un-real)
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This may or may not be apocryphal but I still like the story of the large american twin jet that had an engine failure off 27R at LHR. He called to ATC with something like "Climbing straight ahead and dumping."
ATC now in a spin as that meant the twin would dump fuel all over Windsor Castle with HM in residence so ATC advised twin jet accordingly and asked them not to dump.
The reply from the twin?
"Sir, does she want some of it or all of it?"
Moral of the story?
As Rhino says. If you really need to lose it - let it go!
ATC now in a spin as that meant the twin would dump fuel all over Windsor Castle with HM in residence so ATC advised twin jet accordingly and asked them not to dump.
The reply from the twin?
"Sir, does she want some of it or all of it?"
Moral of the story?
As Rhino says. If you really need to lose it - let it go!
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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Even flying directly into a dump stream would not cause much concern. Any fuel passing through the intake would be in small quantity and would pass through the burner section much like rain. Fuel is diffused almost immediately into vapor further reducing any impact on an aircraft flying through it.
I wouldn't give much thought to area traffic taking any risk from fuel being dumped by a distressed aircraft. Of more concern would be the nature of the emergency's effect on the aircraft maintaining its cleared flight path.
I wouldn't give much thought to area traffic taking any risk from fuel being dumped by a distressed aircraft. Of more concern would be the nature of the emergency's effect on the aircraft maintaining its cleared flight path.
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As Rhino says. If you really need to lose it - let it go!
I've been a ground victim of this some years ago.
I live approx 5 miles crow flight slightly left of centre of LGW 26L and had the misfortune to be in the garden when a TransAero A300 came grinding over obviously struggling to gain height on one engine. I estimated that this aircraft was no more than 1500 feet agl. As I looked up I could feel and taste the fuel it was dumping (it was invisible). The aircraft then flew directly over the town of Horsham, still dumping. I was a little concerned (not least for Mrs Speedpig's washing on the line) and called Gatwick Tower to lodge my first and only ever complaint. I was told by the watch manager that the aircraft was in dire emergency and had no choice but to dump asap. I questioned the wisdom of the aircraft being vectored over a large town in that condition and was told that ATC had no control over where the captain decided to go!!! Is this true?
Fortunately, the aircraft landed safely back at LGW.
SP
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To dump or not to dump, that is the question.
Would it not be the better option to get on the ground with a dire medical emergency if airport etc is suitable? Ditto with a "land at nearest suitable..."?
Would it not be the better option to get on the ground with a dire medical emergency if airport etc is suitable? Ditto with a "land at nearest suitable..."?