Gb Airways Meeting
Junior trash
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How you can suggest GB's growth is being restricted is beyond me. Time to command is 2-3 yrs tops, mainline its 8-10 min. Hardly anyone leaves GB so that must suggest expansion. Maybe if its all such a one way street you should suggest chucking in the franchise like Maersk/Duo did, they did really well on their own.
Theres space for both, BA will never fly to Hurghada/Tenerife but dont expect FRA and CDG to be given away.
Theres space for both, BA will never fly to Hurghada/Tenerife but dont expect FRA and CDG to be given away.
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So any time GB wants to sell tickets to passengers as 'GB', and not 'BA', I think you will find many people would be very happy to see customers make their choices accordingly!
Unless BA (mainline) get their costs down low enough to be able to compete on the type of routes GB operates, the only way to have a BA presence on those routes is to sub it out to an outfit who can make them pay.
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So R3Hard would like to see the UK pilots T+Cs improve but also seems to find glee in the fact that BA pilots will see their 'six figure pensions' become worthless. A somehwat contradictory position I think. He also fails to explain how we are going to improve UK pilots T+Cs by allowing airlines to contract out their flying to lower cost operators, which is inevitably going to put downward pressure on those very T+Cs in order to win the contracts.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'freedom of the skies' but Easy and Ryanair have been free to start up long haul services to the USA and many other places for a long time. They choose not to do so because the long haul low cost model is unproven and doesn't fit with the short haul model. If you want to start the routes bring 'em on, just like EOS and Maxjet. Haven't seen them making a big dent in our premium yield to New York.
Anyway you don't say who you work for but are 'beating BA on just about every route' which I find rather hard to fathom because only bmi and the Europeans are competing with BA to LHR and market share is holding on the LGW routes. Perhaps its for the best that you hardly visit this site anymore.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'freedom of the skies' but Easy and Ryanair have been free to start up long haul services to the USA and many other places for a long time. They choose not to do so because the long haul low cost model is unproven and doesn't fit with the short haul model. If you want to start the routes bring 'em on, just like EOS and Maxjet. Haven't seen them making a big dent in our premium yield to New York.
Anyway you don't say who you work for but are 'beating BA on just about every route' which I find rather hard to fathom because only bmi and the Europeans are competing with BA to LHR and market share is holding on the LGW routes. Perhaps its for the best that you hardly visit this site anymore.
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Where we should target our joint efforts is to ensure that british people from british airfields are being flown in british registered aircraft flown by british pilots
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Hey GB are a fine outfit, no problem there, but look at the overhead comparison. GB lives at the beehive, dont they, whilst BA create the castle in the air for Re - Heat to sit in and play at office politics - Waterside. BA employ tens of thousand of non- front line staff doing who knows what, whilst GB dont.
Re-Heats' comparisons are loaded to prove the point he hopes to make, (i.e. all mainline pilots are overpaid etc etc), and doubtless reflects BA's new management incentive policy, whereby demigods such as he can earn up to 350% of salary as bonus for screwing over their employees. Eighteenth Century Economics meets a twentyfirst century industry. Thats going to build a world class company offering a service product - not!
All the best Re-Heat old boy, keep cracking the whip!
Re-Heats' comparisons are loaded to prove the point he hopes to make, (i.e. all mainline pilots are overpaid etc etc), and doubtless reflects BA's new management incentive policy, whereby demigods such as he can earn up to 350% of salary as bonus for screwing over their employees. Eighteenth Century Economics meets a twentyfirst century industry. Thats going to build a world class company offering a service product - not!
All the best Re-Heat old boy, keep cracking the whip!
Thread Starter
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Many interesting comments, but no one answered the question.
If there was a meeting, then how come few if any pilots knew about it. More important what was it about. I smell a big rat.
If there was a meeting, then how come few if any pilots knew about it. More important what was it about. I smell a big rat.
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So here we have Re heat showing his colours again in this thread, the anti union stance... when will you wake up and see unions have moved since the 80's you silly boy... 
If you think GB should go it alone, great, but I have one word for you Re heat... Duo...
You probably dont know who they are because you have only been interested in Aviation for 5 minutes...
I will tell you again what I said in the other thread, if you want to become flight deck crew... better change your views, otherwise you are in for a short sharp shock, I ahve seen it before, and you are no different sonny...
If you think GB should go it alone, great, but I have one word for you Re heat... Duo...
You probably dont know who they are because you have only been interested in Aviation for 5 minutes...I will tell you again what I said in the other thread, if you want to become flight deck crew... better change your views, otherwise you are in for a short sharp shock, I ahve seen it before, and you are no different sonny...
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Your assumptions are wrong - as is your assertion that I have not heard either of Duo or been interested in aviation for more than 5 minutes...perhaps you have little substantive retort to my points to add? Might I mention Eastern perhaps as a successful independent that - while not with a history as a BA franchisee - effectively operates on many former BA routes with former BA aircraft and successfully so.
Your point is irrelevant anyway, since Duo did not fail on having poor routes or levels of booking, but were unable to find funding in time to cover costs to creditors.
My points are loaded to impress that the whole cost base of BA is excessive - I stress that it is not solely restricted to pilots - scope does not however help any company.
Your point is irrelevant anyway, since Duo did not fail on having poor routes or levels of booking, but were unable to find funding in time to cover costs to creditors.
My points are loaded to impress that the whole cost base of BA is excessive - I stress that it is not solely restricted to pilots - scope does not however help any company.
Still behind the curtain
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GB going it alone
Tandemrotor,
If GB were to suddenly pull out of the pool, they would become just another one of those dozens of holiday airlines going down south.
By staying with BA and its colors, it gives them respectability, codesharing with BA, and good connections from other incoming/outgoing BA flights.
How many passengers actually know that they are flying BG instead of BA? I believe most of the holidaymakers believe they are flying BA. They have not read the fine print.
If GB were to suddenly pull out of the pool, they would become just another one of those dozens of holiday airlines going down south.
By staying with BA and its colors, it gives them respectability, codesharing with BA, and good connections from other incoming/outgoing BA flights.
How many passengers actually know that they are flying BG instead of BA? I believe most of the holidaymakers believe they are flying BA. They have not read the fine print.
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I think the point of this thread has gone astray ---
OK...without BA GB may well find it difficult...Without GB BA would find it difficult to operate to the GB destinations at the same cost base...
The point is what was the meeting about and why did the GB CC boycott it ??
A few years ago BA tried to get the GB pilots to join the mainline lst and operate from LGW but this was kicked out then...
OK...without BA GB may well find it difficult...Without GB BA would find it difficult to operate to the GB destinations at the same cost base...
The point is what was the meeting about and why did the GB CC boycott it ??
A few years ago BA tried to get the GB pilots to join the mainline lst and operate from LGW but this was kicked out then...
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Thinking further on Re-Heat's costs obsession, even making comparisons between BA and GB pilots is futile. GB is a small, friendly company with a specific route network with stage lengths that are, in general, longer than the average BA shorthaul one and where nightstops are, at a guess, relatively rare. Multiple sector days beyond an out and back are relatively rarer, and "touring" the exception rather than the rule.
They operate from LGW, which has its own challenges, but not, by and large, from LHR where a great majority of BA's shorthual operation is based.
BA operates predominanantly from LHR on many short stage lengths, with multiple sector days ending in multiple nightstops ("tours") where you drag a suitcase around europe for five days at a time whilst dashing from aircraft to aircraft at LHR or herding the fixed link turnaround process like crazy to keep some semblance of a schedule together at an airport where a combination of endless building site, extraordinary ramp practices and straightforward overcrowding (airport running at limit capacity most times of day) makes for a debilitating environment.
Despite this, BA shorthaul productivity in terms of hours flown per pilot is better than almost any benchmarked competitor.
This is not to denigrate the GB operation one bit, but to wonder aloud just how attractive the BA contract will seem shorn of either a FS DB pension at the end of it, which, although Re-Heat may not like it, is the deal 99% of pilots signed-up to when they joined, and bidline which gives some semblance of control over your life at work when being tasked to be away from home so much.
Without these two items, factoring-in BA's time to command and the constraints mentioned above, then BA becomes a very much less worthwhile prospect at all.
Current management like Re-Heat, (hello PoD!), blithly assume that because people are still applying all must be well, however the wiser ones are realising that we are now going to have to bond people as well, as a slow flow of joiners gets a free type rating, experience on type and then say "sayonara" and goodbye.
I would go as far as to say that if the FS DB pension is closed or turned into a career average one that then, especially for the co-pilots who will be worst affected by it, the slow flow of departures would turn into a debilitating stream. The end of bidline, origionally called "incentive bidline" would have a very similar effect.
They operate from LGW, which has its own challenges, but not, by and large, from LHR where a great majority of BA's shorthual operation is based.
BA operates predominanantly from LHR on many short stage lengths, with multiple sector days ending in multiple nightstops ("tours") where you drag a suitcase around europe for five days at a time whilst dashing from aircraft to aircraft at LHR or herding the fixed link turnaround process like crazy to keep some semblance of a schedule together at an airport where a combination of endless building site, extraordinary ramp practices and straightforward overcrowding (airport running at limit capacity most times of day) makes for a debilitating environment.
Despite this, BA shorthaul productivity in terms of hours flown per pilot is better than almost any benchmarked competitor.
This is not to denigrate the GB operation one bit, but to wonder aloud just how attractive the BA contract will seem shorn of either a FS DB pension at the end of it, which, although Re-Heat may not like it, is the deal 99% of pilots signed-up to when they joined, and bidline which gives some semblance of control over your life at work when being tasked to be away from home so much.
Without these two items, factoring-in BA's time to command and the constraints mentioned above, then BA becomes a very much less worthwhile prospect at all.
Current management like Re-Heat, (hello PoD!), blithly assume that because people are still applying all must be well, however the wiser ones are realising that we are now going to have to bond people as well, as a slow flow of joiners gets a free type rating, experience on type and then say "sayonara" and goodbye.
I would go as far as to say that if the FS DB pension is closed or turned into a career average one that then, especially for the co-pilots who will be worst affected by it, the slow flow of departures would turn into a debilitating stream. The end of bidline, origionally called "incentive bidline" would have a very similar effect.
ShortfinalFred
What a clever and succinct piece - exactly why I left shorthaul 
BA operates predominanantly from LHR on many short stage lengths, with multiple sector days ending in multiple nightstops ("tours") where you drag a suitcase around europe for five days at a time whilst dashing from aircraft to aircraft at LHR or herding the fixed link turnaround process like crazy to keep some semblance of a schedule together at an airport where a combination of endless building site, extraordinary ramp practices and straightforward overcrowding (airport running at limit capacity most times of day) makes for a debilitating environment.
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Re-Heat
You have a rather interesting perspective on BA, and it's cost base.
You said;
"the whole cost base of BA is excessive - I stress that it is not solely restricted to pilots"
If you are asserting that the PILOT cost base is excessive; may we ask, to whom you are comparing them, and what SPECIFICALLY you mean?
You may of course already be aware that a recent benchmarking process showed that, until the new pay deal, BA pilots had been very significantly UNDERPAID in comparison with all other similar airlines!
You also said;
"scope does not however help any company."
I accept, scope can seem necessary, or can seem unnecessary. It depends on which side of the fence one sits! However, since BA (the management) have signed up to it, it would seem THEY at least accept the principle, and are happy to work within it....
End of!
You have a rather interesting perspective on BA, and it's cost base.
You said;
"the whole cost base of BA is excessive - I stress that it is not solely restricted to pilots"
If you are asserting that the PILOT cost base is excessive; may we ask, to whom you are comparing them, and what SPECIFICALLY you mean?
You may of course already be aware that a recent benchmarking process showed that, until the new pay deal, BA pilots had been very significantly UNDERPAID in comparison with all other similar airlines!
You also said;
"scope does not however help any company."
I accept, scope can seem necessary, or can seem unnecessary. It depends on which side of the fence one sits! However, since BA (the management) have signed up to it, it would seem THEY at least accept the principle, and are happy to work within it....
End of!
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Carnage Matey! - you post like "normal_nigel"
GB will move on in 2010.
Two 'fun in the sun' millionaire ex-pat families joining together sounds too good to be true
Face it, quite a few Big Arses would join Virgin right now if it wasn't for the seniority list.
Merry Xmas
GB will move on in 2010.
Two 'fun in the sun' millionaire ex-pat families joining together sounds too good to be true
Face it, quite a few Big Arses would join Virgin right now if it wasn't for the seniority list.
Merry Xmas
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R3 Hard you come across as such a loser - whilst posting comments such as:
"You guys write so much crap its no wonder i hardly ever visit this site anymore."
... you still have no qualms putting your 2 cents into the mix. Why do people like you feel like you are superior to others whilst it is blatantly obvious you are inadequate to post any kind of reply whatsoever?
"You guys write so much crap its no wonder i hardly ever visit this site anymore."
... you still have no qualms putting your 2 cents into the mix. Why do people like you feel like you are superior to others whilst it is blatantly obvious you are inadequate to post any kind of reply whatsoever?
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Ladies please.
Many points to answer but I am short of time.
However can I just set the record straight about "scope", a word plucked out of the air by the likes of HORKA who I very much doubt has the forst clue of it's meaning and is obviously rabid with anti-BA vitriol.
Scope does not, and never has, applied to Franchise airlines. If it did then BMed would not be operating A321's out of LHR in BA colours. It does not stop GB expanding in BA colours, although many think it should.
Scope is an agreement between BALPA and BA that for BA and all subsidiaries any aircraft with over 100 seats will be flown by BA mainline pilots.
GSS is a different agreement again.
The only exception to this are the RJ's (named by registration in the agreement), in exchange for some secondee positions in the regions.
So when we use the word scope for a little dig, can we get our facts right first please?
Many points to answer but I am short of time.
However can I just set the record straight about "scope", a word plucked out of the air by the likes of HORKA who I very much doubt has the forst clue of it's meaning and is obviously rabid with anti-BA vitriol.
Scope does not, and never has, applied to Franchise airlines. If it did then BMed would not be operating A321's out of LHR in BA colours. It does not stop GB expanding in BA colours, although many think it should.
Scope is an agreement between BALPA and BA that for BA and all subsidiaries any aircraft with over 100 seats will be flown by BA mainline pilots.
GSS is a different agreement again.
The only exception to this are the RJ's (named by registration in the agreement), in exchange for some secondee positions in the regions.
So when we use the word scope for a little dig, can we get our facts right first please?