British Airways A319 loses displays
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I'm off to work for BA! All that fuel. They live in pilot heaven.
Strange that Aircraft was ok to fly for 6 days, then AAIB got involved and checks had to be actioned
"The commander transmitted a ‘MAYDAY’ call on VHF No 1"
The VHF wasn't working either...
but pressing on to BUD after a MAYDAY seems a bit on the daft side.
As others have intimated, the Airbus has its quirks
Essential stuff goes via Essential Buses... And if some "quirk" means that Essential Bus is not automatically selected, then "Houston we have a problem". Whatever, 1 screen remained, and that carried a drill which told the crew to press the button that turned everything back on...I have flown an A320 with an MEL item (DMC 1 or 2?) that meant a single (further) failure could lose ALL displays - the bottom line of the MEL was that you needed to press this button and hey presto, most (all?) would return...
I think the issues are too complex to meaningfully debate here, so let's let the AAIB do their work before people who should know better hang the crew / BA etc.
NoD
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What's this about the Standby Attitude Indicator being unpowered? If it's dependent on the aircraft's electrical system (other than for charging it's own battery) for it's required 30 minutes of operation, what's the point? Might as well save 5 pounds and leave it at home....
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Losing both PFDs, NDs and upper Ecam is more than just a bad day (or night). Was DMC 1 MEL'd? Did just pushing the A/c ESS PB fix the problem or did they have to reset some circuit breakers? Some CBs on the A319 have a memory that have to be depowered for up to 7 minutes to reset the system properly. The standby horizon should last at least 30 minutes. And they did not have a total a/c bus failure because the RAT would have deployed. So the standby bus would have been powered. Its been a couple of years since I have flown the 319/320 but this sounds like another "Oh, it could never happen like that" situation". I had one of those once.
I would have expected that BA Engineering would have checked it out in BUD. The snitch box would have told them what failed but if you do a BITE check and all is well then what can you say but "let 'er fly". A LOT of Sh## on Sparky the Wonderjet has been cleared by doing the Airbus reset - complete power down, go get a coffee and then power back up. Voila - she is fixed!
That's why I fly a Boeing now. (well not really but it sounds good)
I would have expected that BA Engineering would have checked it out in BUD. The snitch box would have told them what failed but if you do a BITE check and all is well then what can you say but "let 'er fly". A LOT of Sh## on Sparky the Wonderjet has been cleared by doing the Airbus reset - complete power down, go get a coffee and then power back up. Voila - she is fixed!
That's why I fly a Boeing now. (well not really but it sounds good)
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Hi Cactus
Fly Boeing?: http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19960528-0
Sh*t happens with both of them at least in this Airbus case the indications came back on!
Fly Boeing?: http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19960528-0
Sh*t happens with both of them at least in this Airbus case the indications came back on!
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Status: Final
Date: 28 MAY 1996
Time: 14:21
Type: Boeing 767-31AER
Operator: Martinair Holland
Registration: PH-MCH
Msn / C/n: 24429/294
Year built: 1990
Total airframe hrs: 30802 hours
Crew: 0 fatalities / 111 on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / 191 on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 202 on board
Airplane damage: Minor
Location: Boston-Logan International Airport, MA (BOS) (United States of America)
Phase: En route (ENR)
Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
Departure airport: Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport (AMS)
Destination airport: Orlando International Airport, FL (MCO)
Blimey, I bet the passengers get good service with that ratio, either that or the hosties serve 1 cup of coffee and then get 5 hours off to recover
Date: 28 MAY 1996
Time: 14:21
Type: Boeing 767-31AER
Operator: Martinair Holland
Registration: PH-MCH
Msn / C/n: 24429/294
Year built: 1990
Total airframe hrs: 30802 hours
Crew: 0 fatalities / 111 on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / 191 on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 202 on board
Airplane damage: Minor
Location: Boston-Logan International Airport, MA (BOS) (United States of America)
Phase: En route (ENR)
Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
Departure airport: Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport (AMS)
Destination airport: Orlando International Airport, FL (MCO)
Blimey, I bet the passengers get good service with that ratio, either that or the hosties serve 1 cup of coffee and then get 5 hours off to recover
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Yep. These Playstation aeroplanes are all very well until the electrickery starts playing up in unexpected ways. There's always the worry of something in there that the systems designers hadn't thought of.
Good job it was an experienced pilot who could fly using the horizon as his reference. One worries about the capabilities of pilots reared on glass cockpits when they have to revert to basics. (OK, so I eggagerate, but you get my drift.)
Something caused this. Find out what. The mechanics......sorry.....engineers much used "Tested satis, no fault found" isn't good enough.
Good job it was an experienced pilot who could fly using the horizon as his reference. One worries about the capabilities of pilots reared on glass cockpits when they have to revert to basics. (OK, so I eggagerate, but you get my drift.)
Something caused this. Find out what. The mechanics......sorry.....engineers much used "Tested satis, no fault found" isn't good enough.
If something fails in the manner it was assumed it might - and a back-up kicks in, then fine.
But with some automation, you get the scenario where one computer hasn't completely failed, it's just gone a bit icky-poo. So whatever is supposed to take over doesn't, because it still thinks that the first system is OK... See the Virgin Atlantic A340-600 fuel computer AAIB report. In that scenario, what really didn't help was the way the low level fuel indication was overridden by the main system. WTF? Surely it should be completely independent?
I was flying a 4-jet with a split AC system once when a corroded voltage regulator didn't allow the one generator we had left on one side to come off line cleanly when it couldn't cope with all the loads it should following an IFSD on air test. So the system went into 'bugger this' mode and protected the other side. We then had no attitude instruments of any kind whatsoever, no autopilots, half the aileron and elevator PCUs out and one of the rudder PCUs out, a rising cabin altitude and an interesting number of lights and flags in view.....until we restarted the engine and brought its generator back on line, followed by everything else. But being an old fashioned pre-electric jet, the designers had at least thought of a way of coping with such unlikely non-graceful degradation. Or rather the original designers had - we were flying a variant with a considerably modified AC load distribution arrangement and the modification had overlooked the fact that all electrical attitude systems now came off the same side of the AC systems.
Had we dropped the Electrical RAT, we would have recovered some attitude systems. But it was a good job we didn't, because when we tested it a few days later it too had a corroded voltage regulator inside the aircraft which then burnt out on the approach, causing a fair amount of smoke. Which the smoke detector didn't detect, because it was also faulty.
The joys of flying one of HM's museum piece aircraft which had been held 'in storage' in the open at a coastal aerodrome in South Wales.....
But with some automation, you get the scenario where one computer hasn't completely failed, it's just gone a bit icky-poo. So whatever is supposed to take over doesn't, because it still thinks that the first system is OK... See the Virgin Atlantic A340-600 fuel computer AAIB report. In that scenario, what really didn't help was the way the low level fuel indication was overridden by the main system. WTF? Surely it should be completely independent?
I was flying a 4-jet with a split AC system once when a corroded voltage regulator didn't allow the one generator we had left on one side to come off line cleanly when it couldn't cope with all the loads it should following an IFSD on air test. So the system went into 'bugger this' mode and protected the other side. We then had no attitude instruments of any kind whatsoever, no autopilots, half the aileron and elevator PCUs out and one of the rudder PCUs out, a rising cabin altitude and an interesting number of lights and flags in view.....until we restarted the engine and brought its generator back on line, followed by everything else. But being an old fashioned pre-electric jet, the designers had at least thought of a way of coping with such unlikely non-graceful degradation. Or rather the original designers had - we were flying a variant with a considerably modified AC load distribution arrangement and the modification had overlooked the fact that all electrical attitude systems now came off the same side of the AC systems.
Had we dropped the Electrical RAT, we would have recovered some attitude systems. But it was a good job we didn't, because when we tested it a few days later it too had a corroded voltage regulator inside the aircraft which then burnt out on the approach, causing a fair amount of smoke. Which the smoke detector didn't detect, because it was also faulty.
The joys of flying one of HM's museum piece aircraft which had been held 'in storage' in the open at a coastal aerodrome in South Wales.....
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From stories I hve heard MyTravel had a couple of instances of losing ALL 6 screens when they brought the new LCD aircraft into service. From what I understand there was no reset and the aircraft were recovered by SBY instruments.
In the AAIB report for the BA incident the pilots managed to recover the systems by following QRH procedures while in the hold so the system worked. Still must have been an interesting atmosphere for the first few seconds in that flight deck. Well done for staying calm.
In the AAIB report for the BA incident the pilots managed to recover the systems by following QRH procedures while in the hold so the system worked. Still must have been an interesting atmosphere for the first few seconds in that flight deck. Well done for staying calm.
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The key thing about this event is that even the standby electric AH was unpowered.
I find the fact that it was slowly "running down" truly upsetting .
I can't comment on the crews decisions to continue to BUD........
However BA seems to have had a few recent "dodgy" events
(i) Inbound "3 engined "744 from LAX, diverting in to MAN, stating on the radio in his mayday that he "didn't have enough fuel for a go around".
(ii) CAA criticising the company for maintaining a "fuel league table " which highlighted fuel carried by individual captains.
(iii) A management pilot who flew a 320 across europe ( when he perhaps should have made a precautionary diversion for investigations) with low oil qty ( or similar ) indications
(iv) Force Drafting of pilots ... ie making them work on a day off even when fatigued. ( one paxed over 9 hours from his home abroad to undertake an immediate duty he was forced to operate.)
I find the fact that it was slowly "running down" truly upsetting .
I can't comment on the crews decisions to continue to BUD........
However BA seems to have had a few recent "dodgy" events
(i) Inbound "3 engined "744 from LAX, diverting in to MAN, stating on the radio in his mayday that he "didn't have enough fuel for a go around".
(ii) CAA criticising the company for maintaining a "fuel league table " which highlighted fuel carried by individual captains.
(iii) A management pilot who flew a 320 across europe ( when he perhaps should have made a precautionary diversion for investigations) with low oil qty ( or similar ) indications
(iv) Force Drafting of pilots ... ie making them work on a day off even when fatigued. ( one paxed over 9 hours from his home abroad to undertake an immediate duty he was forced to operate.)
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Perhaps being a little harsh on some of your colleagues their Shuttleworth. IIRC the 747 did have enough fuel to go around (in fact more than standard reserves) but it was a misunderstanding on the part of the crew which prompted the mayday. Also the 'one engine across Europe' 320 had no ECAM warnings and no indication of a malfunction other than a fluctuating oil quantity indication. We don't call stop for a single indication so why divert for one? And while I really don't like force draft, if you live overseas its a risk you take. Unless you think those of us who live in the UK should be penalised with more force draft to protect the tax exiles?
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From stories I hve heard MyTravel had a couple of instances of losing ALL 6 screens when they brought the new LCD aircraft into service.
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MyTravel have had one instance of a six screen failure. It self reset after 40 seconds. It has happened to other operators with the EIS2 screens, and is nothing to do with electrical power but was a software bug in the EIS2 DMC which involved a failure of one causing the others to enter the BITE cycle.
There was a short term fix which, if I recall, was to switch the displays off, then on, during pre flight checks, revised software was issued quite quickly and there have been no further issues.
Sorry not BS.
There was a short term fix which, if I recall, was to switch the displays off, then on, during pre flight checks, revised software was issued quite quickly and there have been no further issues.
Sorry not BS.
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The mechanics......sorry.....engineers much used "Tested satis, no fault found" isn't good enough.
Wow, that was funny
I'd estimate a recurrence....ooh.....at least fifty percent of the times I've taken over such an aeroplane....probably much more, but I'll be generous.
Still, the problem then gets passed onto another base or another maintenance shift.
I guess each airline has it's own standards.....you obviously haven't encountered the bad ones Mr Fargoo.
Ooops! No.....just checked.......I see you're an engineer, not a pilot.
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Not quite as funny if you're the one operating the aeroplane immediately after such a "repair" and the same fault recurs
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acbus - no I wasn't meaning the nff comments. Which wasn't what was written in that particular tech log anyway.
I was more referring to your "mechanic....engineer" quip.
It's bad enough the management trying to dumb down our job without our flying colleagues doing it as well.
I was more referring to your "mechanic....engineer" quip.
It's bad enough the management trying to dumb down our job without our flying colleagues doing it as well.
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OK, point taken.
I'm similarly annoyed by the dumbing down of engineers (eg the highly educated, qualified and experienced guys who design and develop aeroplanes) by lumping them with any profession associated with machinery/fixing things/steam train stokers/washing machine repairers etc.
Anyway, I latched onto the wrong objection and it's now way off topic.....so back to "British Airways A319 loses displays"
I'm similarly annoyed by the dumbing down of engineers (eg the highly educated, qualified and experienced guys who design and develop aeroplanes) by lumping them with any profession associated with machinery/fixing things/steam train stokers/washing machine repairers etc.
Anyway, I latched onto the wrong objection and it's now way off topic.....so back to "British Airways A319 loses displays"
Just in case you're thinking "...could only happen on an Airbus", about 5mins after a dusk takeoff in a 777, all the screens slowly got darker and darker until nothing was visible. I put the A/P in with the hope that it was just a problem with the presentation of information to us and not something more traumatic.
We tried cycling the master illumination control and the seperate display controls but to no avail. Just before we went "MAYDAY", the screens slowly came back to life and there were no further problems or indications of the same. The 'fading out' also happened to the standby instruments, so they weren't much use either...
Filed a report but never heard any more about it - I presume that no unusual data was captured and no faults were found on testing. I think that anything that is driven by more than extremely simple software has untested/unforeseen conditions which occur very infrequently. Maybe a cosmic ray went through the controller responsible and flipped a few bits. Who knows?
We tried cycling the master illumination control and the seperate display controls but to no avail. Just before we went "MAYDAY", the screens slowly came back to life and there were no further problems or indications of the same. The 'fading out' also happened to the standby instruments, so they weren't much use either...
Filed a report but never heard any more about it - I presume that no unusual data was captured and no faults were found on testing. I think that anything that is driven by more than extremely simple software has untested/unforeseen conditions which occur very infrequently. Maybe a cosmic ray went through the controller responsible and flipped a few bits. Who knows?
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"Thank Goodness for the RAT" - yep, it's been around many, many, years, and saved a lot of bacon.
Maybe this why they don't allow cats to be uncontained on flights - could lose the RAT
Maybe this why they don't allow cats to be uncontained on flights - could lose the RAT