Aircrew Fatigue

[[Steve]]

Having just paxed half way around the world where I was expected to immediatly go to work, then paxed back and again expected to go immediatly to work all I can say is that I have the utmost sympathy for those aircrew that work on these long routes.

On my return I had some *urgent* work that had to be done which coincided with my body screaming at me to go to sleep. I'm just glad it wasn't something where anyone's life was in my hands.

Perhaps you should petition to have your management work alternate weeks on opposite sides of the world.

I think it would focus their minds on the issue.

[Sunfish]

Correction To Previous Post

I've a correction to my previous post. It appears what is really happening when your company is asking you to "bend" the rules, in for example rostering, is called the double bind problem .

Reference here and google it yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Bind

In psychological terms, it appears to be asking you to believe two contradictory things at the same time.

For example

1. You will be punished if you break the rules (by a regulator if you have an accident while fatigued).

2. You will be punished if you refuse to fly because you decide you are fatigued.


It is suggested in the literature that this may be one of the causes of Schizophrenia. It's certainly a cause of stress.

Its actually the company that has the moral hazard problem because of the lack of blame that attaches to them if you commit "pilot error". There is no penalty for them in doing the wrong thing (at the personal level) even though they know that all will suffer by it.

Apparently this issue is being raised in Cirrus aircraft fitted with the ballistic parachute. The suggestion is that pilots get their Cirri in more trouble (and have more accidents than comparable aircraft) because they can rely on the chute to save them.

[makintw]

A pprune virgin writes:

I woke up in Vancouver 7am local time, Tuesday, packed, had a couple of meetings in the morning before catching a 3 hour AC flight to LAX, arriving around 6pm.

Waited there until 11.30pm for a 14 hour SQ flight to TPE, arriving 6am local on Thursday. Slept (dozed) a few hours on the flight. Another wait, this time 3 hours before a short 40 min hop to KHH. Finally getting home at midday.

Slept a bit in the afternoon. Fed and played with my 8 month old son. Went to sleep around 10pm and slept 'til 7am, but was woken a few times in the night by junior.

In the office around 9am, bright and breezy, but now I'm sitting at my desk here in Taiwan where it's 5pm on Friday and I'm feeling well and truly cream crackered.

The above were the final sectors of a month long round the world trip, TPE > SIN > AMS > MAN > LHR > AMS > CPH > HEL > CPH > MAN > BEL > MAN > LHR > IAD > MEM > CHT > ATL > YYZ > LGA > DEN > YVR > LAX > TPE > KHH. And these are just the flights. Add to these the train journeys, and many miles driven in UK, US and Holland. Oh....and the meetings in between.

Luckily I've only got a 45 minute drive home tonight and the weekend to try and recover from the 16 hour time difference and lack of sleep.

I'm just a pax, so I really do wonder how all of you at the pointy end can keep up with this type of travel month in month out without starting to suffer, not just from fatigue, but long term health and personal issues.

[bugg smasher]

I think most of us just get on with the job, another long night over the Pacific, another paycheck at the end of the month. Sleep when you’re able, grunt through the rest. Guess that’s why they pay us the big bucks.

With all the righteous indignation being voiced here, you’d think most of us would have already located other modes of employment. That’s always an option you know.

Personally, I like the lifestyle. Fatigue is one of the heavier costs associated with the job, but with time, experience, and a little imagination, you learn to manage it.

[Shaka Zulu]

What big bucks?
If it was for the money I wouldnt be flying.
Seriously underpayed for the things that you have to give up!

[Marvin the Robot]

Most of the "I don't mind the sleep deprivation" types are probably at the younger end of the age spectrum.

Mid thirties is when it starts to bite.

[Captain_Scooby]

Out of curiosity, have there been any air accidents where the final cause determined was that the flight crew had fallen asleep?

[PAXboy]

Cpt_S. My cynical guess is "Almost certainly but we shall never know." It is like trying to prove a negative, especially when those who could affirm that they were very tired are dead.

[peuce]

Or this, B737 nearly into the Canberra hills, recent one:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200402747.aspx

[Airbus Girl]

But the regulators won't do anything because there is no evidence that rosters are fatiguing.
CAA to airline: "so, may we audit your crew sickness and fatigue records"
"Yes"
"Well, looks good, no crew members have called in fatigued. That must mean your rosters are not fatiguing"

What are the regulators meant to do, try and get airlines to change rostering practices when there is no evidence that they cause fatigue?

I agree that fatigue is an issue, and I hope that scientific evidence will eventually get the FTLs changed but bearing in mind that when JAA rules came in they were not as limiting as the CAA rules in most cases, there is little hope.

There is no evidence. No one calls in fatigued. The only evidence the authorities have to work on is anecdotal or occasionally when it is obvious in an accident that human error was caused by fatigue. But then that pilot would be to blame for flying whilst fatigued.

Its a catch 22 and no matter how much we talk about it nothing will change.

[RAT 5]

This is not aimed at any particular national organisation;

but isn't this what national unions are for? To improve and uphold the working conditions and standards of the industry as a whole?


It staggers me the reaction of unions and goverment when a crash/incident occurs on the railways compared to that in aviation. The unions get involved, and there is often some "we've been telling you this for years."

The subject of rosters, fatigue/tiredness & life style has been beaten to death for years; each of the 30 I've been involved with it. Nothing has been achieved. It all started with the pilots allowing the upper deck on 747-100 (crew rest area) to be sold to the companies for a few pieces of gold. The slide has been slippery ever since. The old greedy claim of wide-body pay etc. The unions, driven by the older, near retirement pilots, took their eye of the ball and the life style has been eroded ever since.

As someone says, there is all this anecdotal chit chat. Why not Balpa, or ECA, call a conference and invite CAA and operators etc. It will be very public, hopefully televised. It would be a darned sight more positive in effect than some of the junkets that go on.

The national unions are a disgrace for allowing this to happen. The miners had balls, just chose the wrong war and the wrong stratergy.

There is talk about the JAA, that old fading European conjunction, aand their suggested FTL's. Well, why not first attack the fact that no operator has implemented the compenstaion packages directed by the then EU transport commission of the early 90's, led by Niel Kinnock, or been brought to task by any union or authority for not doing so. The fact is that the transport industry was temporarily exempt from the workers social charter & working time directive; compensation measures should have been introduced by the operators (buses trains ships etc.) until a proper change in T's & C's could be devised to bring about the gains enjoyed by ground based static based employees.

The whole matter was conveniently forgotten in aviation; the unions did naff all and the operators have ridden rough shod over the whole industry. It is Hi Time that the Commission is bought to book by the ECA as to why its own directive has been so steadfastly ignored. It would go a very long way to alieving many of the problems, AND IT IS THE RIGHT of the aircrew, not some charitatble gift. Get your 1% for gawd's sake.

[BANANASBANANAS]

I have recently moved from one employer in SE Asia to another. The airline I left has no union representation and a weak operating authority. Most of the time I flew for them I considered myself fatigued and this fatigue was one of the reasons I sought alternative employment. I now fly for an airline that has good management, union representation and a strong operating authority. Guess what? Little or no fatigue and sufficient post flight rest (legally required by the authority) to recover completely before the next long haul.

And the strange thing is, its my new employer that is making record profits and the ex employer that continues to struggle.

There has to be a moral there somewhere.

[Masai]

Which Magazine

The Which Magazine Survey on No Frills Airlines says:

We're also worried about the potential for overwork among airline pilots. This is a safety issue which needs to be monitored closely.

They have got a point

[Smudger]

Just as an aside, when I was a C130 captain in the RAF I once took the Lyneham Station Medical Officer to Akrotiri and back so that he could assess for himself the effects of fatigue on the flight crew. Departure from Lyneham was approx midnight on Sunday, arrival at Akrotiri 7 hours later. 24 hours in AKR, then return trip to UK. He spent most of both sectors fast asleep on the crew bunk. All I'm saying is that fatigue is of course a serious problem for us flight deck people, but nobody is going to solve it for us. I don't know what the answer is, but it is up to us to fight tooth and nail against ANY pressure to fly when unfit due to fatigue. As has been said already, it's not always easy to say no, but it MUST be done when the circumstances dictate. (Gets down off soap box, dons steel helmet and awaits flak).

[RAT 5]

Once more I read a new glossy brouchure advertising the delights of passenger a) sleeper seats with moderate recline, b) full recline seats, c) full beds. Arrive refreshed is the advertising cry.
I consider the standard Boeing seat to be utter rubbish. My 11 year old Opel has a more comfortable seat. After a 10 hour journey I fell better, i.e. less back ache, from my car journey than a megamillion U$ Boeing. Anyone else agree?

After a few years of long-haul, no bunks and horendous duty times of 16 hours, it was essential to cat nap on a night flight. The recline is not enough in a Boeing seat to support your back and use the head rest. I woke up more stiff, but a little rested. meanwhile the pax, all cuddled up and cosy, arrived refreshed. the pilots arrive knackered. Somethings wrong there, methinks. I feel A simple solution would be to design the cockpits so that the pilot's seat can fully, or nearly fully, recline. Compare a long distance lorry seat to ours. Any self respecting lorry driver would walk off the jobvif he had to spend his shorter duty times in our seats.

OK, it would cost the cabin 1 row of seats, perhaps. But with proper design, probably not even that.

[Bomber Harris]

quote: "Out of curiosity, have there been any air accidents where the final cause determined was that the flight crew had fallen asleep?"

Capt Scooby, I'm sure you just penned the question quickly and didn't give it much thought. Had you given it more thought you have realised that "falling asleep" is a symtom of chronic fatigue. We are just talking about plain old moderate fatigue. The kind which causes you to make "errors" as opposed to "falling asleep". The kind of errors that make you mis set altimeters and fly into the ground a few miles before the runway.

There are plenty of accidents out there which fit this category. Very hard to pinpoint fatigue as the "cause" but easy to realise it was a contributing factor to the accident. If you remove a contributing factor then it could be argued that the accident may not have happened. All very speculative, but either way, fatigue is a very very very bad thing to have in the flight deck.

[Agent Oringe]

Along with contaminated air, which is known to induce the fatigue that you are all on about.

747-200, 757, A330, for longhaul ?
737, A320, A321, 146, MD83, Emb145, for shorthaul anybody?

Penny dropped yet?

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

I called in fatigued once, in the middle of a duty. I was fatigued because the hotel they put me in the night before was, frankly, appalling. Fortunately, there was an FO on airport standby, he was at the steps of the aircraft by the time the last passenger was off. (Before anyone asks, the captain was not fatigued- he was locally based and had spent the previous night in his own bed). No flights were delayed, no passengers were inconvenienced...
Some weeks later, I had a phone call from crewing.
Crewing: "You never submitted a sickness self-certificate for the duty you did not complete on xxx day."
CBFO: "That's because I wasn't sick."
Crewing: "You did not complete the duty, you called in sick in the middle of it."
CBFO: "I was not sick, I was fatigued."
Crewing: "Fill in a sickness form anyway."
CBFO: "Well, if you're sure. However, the reason I was sick was, the company put me in a terrible hotel. That means, if I was sick, it was due to company action; that means it was an industrial accident. I will write that on the sickness form. Still want me to submit one?"
Crewing: "I'll get back to you. <click>"
It's been nearly three years and I haven't heard back yet!

[expelair]

Whilst I sympathise with the F/D crew on the availability of suitable rest on long haul I would like to remind you that those of us who look after the live freight are lucky to get any rest at all, yes there are some A/C fitted out with bunks but not all.
We the humble cabin crew have very little in the way of legislative recourse and are expected to stay on our feet for very long periods. Both jobs are difficult in there own right but when was the last time anyone did a fatigue check on cabin crew who have to move around the A/C cabin pressurised to 8k feet, with no quiet area to sit down in and have a drink or something to eat.
I commend all the pilots for trying to stay awake whilst looking at a video screen on a dark night but the whole issue should be looked at but not just from the point of view of the F/D, it is called CRM or just sensible working practice.

[Flying Lawyer]

Re: Aircrew Fatigue

This news item caught my attention - non-aviation but IMHO relevant to this thread.

Professional people don't have a culture of going sick for trivial reasons or personal convenience, but the story is a sad illustration of the high price which can be paid for just 'getting on with it' and going to work instead of calling in sick.

Staten Island crash pilot jailed


"I will regret for the rest of my life that I did not just call in sick," he told the court.