Air France crash at YYZ (Merged)
Also of interest (?) is the fact that this AMs (Thursdays) news on this side of the pond is carrying pictures passengers took, inside the cabin during the evacuation......................perhaps in future safety briefings will have to be amended to contain the phrase: "in the event of an emergency do not stop to take pictures in the hope that CNN/Sky wil pay you a fortune...."
some SLF really really are .................................
some SLF really really are .................................
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RiverCity -
Thanks for that. I did read through the thread but there was 15 pages worth and I admit I got to skimming after a bit!
Wiggy -
Considering how most self loading cargo dresses, how little they pay attention to the safety brief, or the lack of interest in the safety cards in the seatbacks, I'm amazed they find the loo, let alone their way off the plane after a normal arrival.
Perhaps the flight attendants should be issued cattle prods?
Thanks for that. I did read through the thread but there was 15 pages worth and I admit I got to skimming after a bit!
Wiggy -
Considering how most self loading cargo dresses, how little they pay attention to the safety brief, or the lack of interest in the safety cards in the seatbacks, I'm amazed they find the loo, let alone their way off the plane after a normal arrival.
Perhaps the flight attendants should be issued cattle prods?
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Swiss press carrying the following statement:
Pilot trägt "volle Verantwortung"
Pilot carries "full responsibility"
made by the Canadian transport minister, Jean Lapierre.
Looks like another colleague "guilty" until proven innocent.
Pilot trägt "volle Verantwortung"
Pilot carries "full responsibility"
made by the Canadian transport minister, Jean Lapierre.
Looks like another colleague "guilty" until proven innocent.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Age: 48
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just saw a professor from Cranfield University on the box (Helen Muir, I think it was), telling us viewers about the safety measures on the AF A3430 which enabled everyone to escape.
Funny how it's only the journos who get knocked for not getting the facts straight.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can some A340 Pilots give some idea of the sophistication of the Autoland, which I assume must have been flying the plane in that kind of weather?
Even ATHR, which tends to be used for most landings in modern Airbus / 777 types, often gets maxed out in turbulence, and Man THR required / advised, depending on pilot's choice / Company SOPs and how well this ATHR is performing on the day. Not flown the 777, so not sure if this applies, but A320 series certainly is.
SM
BUT what happened after this KLM\'s missed approach when airport closed down? Right! It declared a low fuel emergency!What on earth were those fellows doing there around an airport with the most awful weather on fumes?
I presume you would rather he had not issued the "low fuel emergency", and just "hoped" all would work out... somewhat like the Columbian 707 at JFK some years ago...
Might I suggest you remove your somewhat slanderous comment unless you can add some facts to back up your assertion he "was on fumes".
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dark Africa
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at the pictures posted, looks like the pax were very lucky. I can't see too many escape slides deployed, or do I miss them completely. Can only see one on right hand side of aircraft.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the Mirror today
Perhaps the shift in CoG caused the crash?
The Airbus A340's twin tail-mounted engines had started to burn when fire chief Figliola arrived on the scene less than a minute after the crash.
Perhaps the shift in CoG caused the crash?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Boston USA
Age: 67
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at some of these pictures (Mirikalet i Toronto) http://www.bt.dk/billedgalleri/ particularly the ariel picture, it appears like the paved area was only a few tens of meters too short? Also looks like steering was possible to miss the water?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Never diverting!
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@EAL401 you better get your facts straight!
Helen Muir is THE expert on evacuation so it is rather more likely that the wrong questions were asked or that the right answers were edited out.
Helen Muir is THE expert on evacuation so it is rather more likely that the wrong questions were asked or that the right answers were edited out.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,929
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jewitts
Looked at the pics. I think what you are referring to is the perimeter road - not much use to an A340. In some of the highway camera images, the runway appears quite close behind the stricken a/c, but that's due to the 'visual shortening' effect any telephoto lens produces.
What's more amazing is, how close to this little river (or other body of water) they came. Plunging in there......
Looked at the pics. I think what you are referring to is the perimeter road - not much use to an A340. In some of the highway camera images, the runway appears quite close behind the stricken a/c, but that's due to the 'visual shortening' effect any telephoto lens produces.
What's more amazing is, how close to this little river (or other body of water) they came. Plunging in there......
Clearly the investigators will have to establish all the facts before coming to any conclusions and all accidents are caused by a combination of circumstances rather like the proverbial block of cheese with holes in it - when they all line up a major event like this occurs.
As a pilot myself I feel for the flightcrew in this accident and cannot imagine what they are going through. The popular media like to portray the idea that everything is "black and white" but those that are experienced know that there are many shades of grey! Flying is "risky", we are all striving to minimise the risk but if we constantly divereted whenever the weather was "marginal" we would never get anywhere!
I seem to recall on the A320 series (different type I know but many similarities to the A340) that one went off the end at Ibiza circra 5 years ago which was associated with a failure of the BSCU (Brake Steering Computer..I think!) and also there was a near miss somewhere in Germany not long after the type had been in service where the logic of the speedbrake operation was a partial cause of a very close overrun - anyone got any details on these for comparison?
No doubt there will are lessons to be learned from this accident but we must be thankful that all got away unscathed. It is also a timely reminder that fire is one of aviator's major hazards.
Finally, well done to the cabin crew for doing an excellent job in getting them all out.
As a pilot myself I feel for the flightcrew in this accident and cannot imagine what they are going through. The popular media like to portray the idea that everything is "black and white" but those that are experienced know that there are many shades of grey! Flying is "risky", we are all striving to minimise the risk but if we constantly divereted whenever the weather was "marginal" we would never get anywhere!
I seem to recall on the A320 series (different type I know but many similarities to the A340) that one went off the end at Ibiza circra 5 years ago which was associated with a failure of the BSCU (Brake Steering Computer..I think!) and also there was a near miss somewhere in Germany not long after the type had been in service where the logic of the speedbrake operation was a partial cause of a very close overrun - anyone got any details on these for comparison?
No doubt there will are lessons to be learned from this accident but we must be thankful that all got away unscathed. It is also a timely reminder that fire is one of aviator's major hazards.
Finally, well done to the cabin crew for doing an excellent job in getting them all out.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Times (London) reports this morning that the AF Chairman has said he cannot understand why the aircraft was allowed to land.
Perhaps he should ask his own captain (who as commander of the A/C would be obliged to do whatever he felt to be in the interests of the safe conduct of the flight), rather than imply that some external agency (like ATC) is responsible.
Perhaps he should ask his own captain (who as commander of the A/C would be obliged to do whatever he felt to be in the interests of the safe conduct of the flight), rather than imply that some external agency (like ATC) is responsible.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Southend , UK
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is little doubt that the absene of fatalities in this incident means the cabin crew did a good job.
However, having read through all the reporting, there appears to be some serious inconsistencies in the stories.
Why has there been no mention of the Captain? An early news report stated that on of the flight crew had been found by the fire services away from the aircraft. Another report stated thet the First Officer made a radio call to state that he had checked that all passengers were out of the aircraft. putting those two together would suggest that the Captain might have been one of the first out of the aircraft. Is this AF procedure?
I've listened to the ATC link posted earlier. It would appear that the weather problems were creating major disruption, as many aircraft were in a serious low fuel state ( KLM declaring a " Low Fuel Emergency having gone around immediately after the AF crash). Were the AF crew force themselves into a " must land" situation due to low fuel?
Food for thought.
TSK
However, having read through all the reporting, there appears to be some serious inconsistencies in the stories.
Why has there been no mention of the Captain? An early news report stated that on of the flight crew had been found by the fire services away from the aircraft. Another report stated thet the First Officer made a radio call to state that he had checked that all passengers were out of the aircraft. putting those two together would suggest that the Captain might have been one of the first out of the aircraft. Is this AF procedure?
I've listened to the ATC link posted earlier. It would appear that the weather problems were creating major disruption, as many aircraft were in a serious low fuel state ( KLM declaring a " Low Fuel Emergency having gone around immediately after the AF crash). Were the AF crew force themselves into a " must land" situation due to low fuel?
Food for thought.
TSK
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TSK -
- it has been pointed out many times - and on this thread - that is not necessarily a 'serious low fuel state' but NORMAL operating procedure when a diversion MAY land the a/c with less than RESERVE fuel (30 minutes flying time in JAROps)- not 'fumes' or 'short'.
Refer to 'NigelOnDraft' above? All the fuel facts (and more) will be 'found' by the investigating team and then you will know - and can feed.
as many aircraft were in a serious low fuel state ( KLM declaring a " Low Fuel Emergency having gone around immediately after the AF crash
Refer to 'NigelOnDraft' above? All the fuel facts (and more) will be 'found' by the investigating team and then you will know - and can feed.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Kagerplassen
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even if the AF would have been on the legal minimum fuel for landing in YYZ, they would still have the fuel on board for a diversion.
The KLM rightly advised ATC of their situation, as they apparently wanted to divert without delay, and that has absolutely NOTHING to do with "fumes" in the fuel tanks.
Before you make such a wild statement, do you know how the fuelcalculation is done? Please read the JAR or FAR first and then come back to this forum!
You don't switch "the autoland" on for landing, there is no such switch. In low visiblity ops, you leave the autopilot on untill after landing. This is done in FOG, that means hardly any wind and low visiblity.
Bad weather connected to thunderstorms has nothing to do with autoland, as you will probably be out of limits (1) and the autothrust of the A340 will in my experience do a really bad job as it is not designed for the huge windgusts which I guess you will encounter in such weather on final (2).
P77
The KLM rightly advised ATC of their situation, as they apparently wanted to divert without delay, and that has absolutely NOTHING to do with "fumes" in the fuel tanks.
Before you make such a wild statement, do you know how the fuelcalculation is done? Please read the JAR or FAR first and then come back to this forum!
You don't switch "the autoland" on for landing, there is no such switch. In low visiblity ops, you leave the autopilot on untill after landing. This is done in FOG, that means hardly any wind and low visiblity.
Bad weather connected to thunderstorms has nothing to do with autoland, as you will probably be out of limits (1) and the autothrust of the A340 will in my experience do a really bad job as it is not designed for the huge windgusts which I guess you will encounter in such weather on final (2).
P77
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: I don't know...
Age: 59
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at This picture the aircraft went straight off the end of the runway.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Over Mache Grande?
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dumbledore
Did these guys have any business landing a plane full of people in such bad weather?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,852
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CFTO-TV news reported last night that the captain was the last to leave after checking that everyone was off the plane. He then gave the go ahead for emergency services to take action.
CFTO also said that passengers assisted each other in evacuating the aircraft.
Also, a number of motorists stopped on 401 to help the people through the fence. Some drivers took pax to the airport.
CFTO also said that passengers assisted each other in evacuating the aircraft.
Also, a number of motorists stopped on 401 to help the people through the fence. Some drivers took pax to the airport.