Air France crash at YYZ (Merged)
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Thank God for the safety of all on board. I can only agree with an earlier post that the 2 chaps upfront are going to face a grilling for some months to come. Let's hope that all the procedures in the book were followed. that should save their hides a bit.I also hope that the now famous ravine will be filled up....
gen3
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Toronto Air France crash
On 26 June 1978 I was working at Toronto International Airport when an Air Canada DC-9 suffered a tire blow-out followed by engine injestion and failure, resulting in an aborted take-off. The aircraft ran off the end on the runway and landed in the same ravine as the Air France A340. The impact broke the aircraft fuselage into three pieces and although there was no fire, there were 2 fatalities and 105 injured, some very seriously. This ravine in nearly 80 feet deep and I thnk that it is ridiculous that such a hazard still exists at the end of such a major internationak airport runway. Why have Transport Canada taken no steps in over 25 years to remove this hazard?
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This was a very surreal event to read about before nodding off last night - it looked so serious, but also amazing that everyone survived.
I suppose it is easy to want to ask why, and to question if proceedures were followed, but I know that I don't envy the staff who had to deal with this event, and that I admire their ability to have got everyone out. It is so easy to point the fingers from the other side of a modem cable thousands of miles away, but as a strict "desk" jockey, I'm glad I am unlikely to ever have to face the sort of split second decisions the crew had to last night.
On a factual point, the A340 loss at CDG was mentioned earlier - was the VS event (A340 at LHR, 1997) also a hull loss, or did they manage to repair the aircraft? Nothing on the usual sources about this.
I suppose it is easy to want to ask why, and to question if proceedures were followed, but I know that I don't envy the staff who had to deal with this event, and that I admire their ability to have got everyone out. It is so easy to point the fingers from the other side of a modem cable thousands of miles away, but as a strict "desk" jockey, I'm glad I am unlikely to ever have to face the sort of split second decisions the crew had to last night.
On a factual point, the A340 loss at CDG was mentioned earlier - was the VS event (A340 at LHR, 1997) also a hull loss, or did they manage to repair the aircraft? Nothing on the usual sources about this.
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Safety Demonstration before landing mandatory in Canada?
I read on another site, that flights over 4 hours are required to perform a safety demonstration before landing in Canada.
Is this true? If it is, it was probably very helpful. In any case: Well done to all involved!
Is this true? If it is, it was probably very helpful. In any case: Well done to all involved!
I'm amazed that major airports do not have arrestor beds at the end of the runways.
24R at Manchester has (or at least had) one which is 90m long but designed to stop a 747 travelling at 40kts within 60m from memory. The result - no fire and no air frame loss and definately no casualties. Not rocket science surely?
24R at Manchester has (or at least had) one which is 90m long but designed to stop a 747 travelling at 40kts within 60m from memory. The result - no fire and no air frame loss and definately no casualties. Not rocket science surely?
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FYI, it was the 3rd hull loss of an A340 aircraft.
24.07.2001 Sri Lankan A340-300 4R-ADD
destroyed by tamil rebels
20.01.1994 Air France A340-200 F-GNIA
burned out whilst under tow (overheated fuelpump caused fire)
check all recent AF losses
http://www.jacdec.de/news.htm
24.07.2001 Sri Lankan A340-300 4R-ADD
destroyed by tamil rebels
20.01.1994 Air France A340-200 F-GNIA
burned out whilst under tow (overheated fuelpump caused fire)
check all recent AF losses
http://www.jacdec.de/news.htm
Too mean to buy a long personal title
MarkD: liveatc is being "slashdotted" (although it has not actually being posted to slashdot), I imagine the same kind of hammering is being meted out to its servers. The 1600 ATC mp3 is currently downloading on my cable connection at a leisurely 0.6kbps!
http://www.liveatc.net/.archive/cyyz/CYYZ-Toronto-Aug-02-05-1600.mp3
still seems to reach the necessary files.
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It is a natural feature and I agree that it certainly prevents an aircraft going on to Highway 401. My point, however is whether a major runway should present these alternatives.
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Regarding the wind changing, did anyone notice how the smoke changed direction in a short space of time?
Glad everyone got out, the clouds of black smoke were worrying but if all escape in 50-90 seconds, in the position it is sitting and with only 14 minor injuries, then bravo.
All we need to do now is sit back and let David Learmount explain the whole cause and events of the accident.
Glad everyone got out, the clouds of black smoke were worrying but if all escape in 50-90 seconds, in the position it is sitting and with only 14 minor injuries, then bravo.
All we need to do now is sit back and let David Learmount explain the whole cause and events of the accident.
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Marvellous story
Probably the reasons for getting into the crash situation will be debated for a long time, but I would like to add my congratulations to all the crew and the rescue people for saving so many lives. Perhaps it’s a good augury for the safe survival of an A380, should it get into a similar situation.
As for lightning strikes, from my two experiences of this phenomenon, I would say that anything can happen after you have been zapped. You cannot predict accurately, IMHO.
I agree totally with SIDStar, ravines have no right to be close neighbours to runways. Old memories of 15L at LGAT spring to mind, as SID the Star says. I recall three in the ditch there, saw two of them. Ugly. . When will they learn ?
Again, a fantastic story with a magnificent ending. Well done everybody !!!
oTd
As for lightning strikes, from my two experiences of this phenomenon, I would say that anything can happen after you have been zapped. You cannot predict accurately, IMHO.
I agree totally with SIDStar, ravines have no right to be close neighbours to runways. Old memories of 15L at LGAT spring to mind, as SID the Star says. I recall three in the ditch there, saw two of them. Ugly. . When will they learn ?
Again, a fantastic story with a magnificent ending. Well done everybody !!!
oTd
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The only known fact at the moment seems to be that the Air France cabin crew did a superb job on the evac.
I have some concerns about the apparent inability of the fire service to supress the fires. They still seemed to be burning hours later. If the terrain is blamed for the lack of close in fire trucks this will be surprising. I was there just after the DC9 finished up in the ravine so surely tracks were laid in there to give access in case another aircraft finished up in the same position.
I have some concerns about the apparent inability of the fire service to supress the fires. They still seemed to be burning hours later. If the terrain is blamed for the lack of close in fire trucks this will be surprising. I was there just after the DC9 finished up in the ravine so surely tracks were laid in there to give access in case another aircraft finished up in the same position.
ex-Tanker
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Runway reports
The Odd One,
Yep - "wet" is the worst I´ve heard in the UK. Never heard "flooded". I have even approached in a teeming downpour to a field near London and asked for the runway state. "It's wet", they said.
Well I could see that! What I wanted to know is whether there was standing water and how much - exactly because of the X Wind factor.
I had to hold off while they went to look.
I guess we pilots are to blame because we don´t ask that question much and too many just land anyway.
Greetings,
FC.
Yep - "wet" is the worst I´ve heard in the UK. Never heard "flooded". I have even approached in a teeming downpour to a field near London and asked for the runway state. "It's wet", they said.
Well I could see that! What I wanted to know is whether there was standing water and how much - exactly because of the X Wind factor.
I had to hold off while they went to look.
I guess we pilots are to blame because we don´t ask that question much and too many just land anyway.
Greetings,
FC.
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Was in the jumpseat on a BA 747-200 in '99 for landing in YYZ. Was just before Xmas, and there was quite heavy snow drifting across the runway.
Capt floated it quite a way before touchdown and must admit didn't stop too far from the end.. FO and engineer looked a wee bit concerned, probably knowing what was just off the end..
Capt floated it quite a way before touchdown and must admit didn't stop too far from the end.. FO and engineer looked a wee bit concerned, probably knowing what was just off the end..
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I have heard them at Manchester say wet, wet, wet but then expand on that by say either very wet or standing water or details of breaking info from either previous aircraft or estimated from ops vehicles ( which I presume is covering their back)
G-I-B
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Jabird, the Virgin A340 was back in the air after a couple of months.
An awful lot of blather about lightning strikes, hail on the runway, windshear and cross winds... it looks like a nasty but straightforward over run into a bad bit of terrain after aquaplaning. Not the first one in an A340 as Luftie had one a few years ago but with less dire consequences. A340 has a bit of a history of anti skid problems in the wet but all supposed to be modded out now.
An awful lot of blather about lightning strikes, hail on the runway, windshear and cross winds... it looks like a nasty but straightforward over run into a bad bit of terrain after aquaplaning. Not the first one in an A340 as Luftie had one a few years ago but with less dire consequences. A340 has a bit of a history of anti skid problems in the wet but all supposed to be modded out now.
I have only flown 737's but if you float a long way into the runway due excess speed and at the same time losing forward vision through the windscreen in blinding rain, there is no problem with simply opening up and going around. Is there any technical reason why this cannot be done safely in an A340?