Air India Plane Skids off Runway
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Air India Plane Skids off Runway
An AIA 747-400 skid off the runway at Mumbai Airports this morning in heavy rain. It was apparently flight AI127 from Bangalore.
The aircraft was carrying 333 pasengers and they are all safe.
The airport has been "partially" closed. The same runway is still being used with restricted TORA it seems for the smaller aircraft. TakeOff's only. Although some airlines are not conmfortable departing on the same runway and have opted not to.
Any more details about what exactly happend?
The aircraft was carrying 333 pasengers and they are all safe.
The airport has been "partially" closed. The same runway is still being used with restricted TORA it seems for the smaller aircraft. TakeOff's only. Although some airlines are not conmfortable departing on the same runway and have opted not to.
Any more details about what exactly happend?
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Bombay is hell on earth at the moment with the rains.
Would there be a chance of a runway being damaged with a torrent like that?
940mm was what someone quoted earlier.
Would there be a chance of a runway being damaged with a torrent like that?
940mm was what someone quoted earlier.
Silt or Mud?
Even if the runway had dried out after the flooding, any residual silt or mud would not help the braking action.
Any moisture content or clay component in the sediment would worsen the situation.
Any moisture content or clay component in the sediment would worsen the situation.
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Landing earlier this morning on Mumbai's RWY 14 (notorious for its displaced threshold, reduced LDA and many upslopes and downslopes along it's length!) in heavy rain, she skid, slipped and danced her merry way to a stop at the far end... and the nose wheel apparently over-ran the concrete by a few feet. Aircraft is in perfect shape from what I hear. That's the news out as of now.
But whatever the outcome, knowing that runway very well, I say congratulations to the Captain for a great job done under very obvious trying conditions. I'm sure many pilots flying in and out of Mumbai have nightmares of landing on 14 with winds always either cross and >15kt or tail and ~10kt after a bumpy approach. Add heavy rain to it, reduced visibility, that nasty "bump" and the TDZ plus the always unspoken-of Rubber Deposits at the TDZs and you have the perfect recipe for what happened today.
Why can't Mumbai's runways be better maintained (or simply rebuilt elsewhere!)? On a few odd days, it's a disaster just waiting to happen.
Personally I would have gone around or diverted knowing Rwy14 and the conditions, but I wouldn't take anything away from the AI captain as one is always trying to make it in somehow, especially at your home base airport with... the main runway 09/27 closed... AND many passengers stranded for days together after the devastation of the floods... AND 14 being the ONLY runway out of FOUR that is open and available for landing (the rest of the airport being still fairly water-logged or very wet and the ILS-es of the other runways still not up and running).
But that's best left for another discussion to decide what was right or wrong.
As per TV reports, SQ had earlier decided not to operate to Mumbai since they cannot land there. Guess 14/32 isn't very popular among most of the foreign carriers... understandably too.
Yes, 940mm in 24 hours that day. 630mm of that fell in just 12 hours. It WAS hell on earth. I know... I slept the night on a cold, hard marble staircase on the 3rd floor of an office building I "found" while escaping the 5-foot floods
Was in pitch darkness with the electricity switched off all over the city. Later in the morning I found "my staircase" overlooked the threshold of Rwy 14
....and then walked 10km home amidst the devastation.
Hope Mumbai recovers fast. Loads of garbage remains to be collected from the roads, carcasses of dead animals too, horrible stench in some areas. Watch out for diseases Mumbai, and good luck with the repair!
But whatever the outcome, knowing that runway very well, I say congratulations to the Captain for a great job done under very obvious trying conditions. I'm sure many pilots flying in and out of Mumbai have nightmares of landing on 14 with winds always either cross and >15kt or tail and ~10kt after a bumpy approach. Add heavy rain to it, reduced visibility, that nasty "bump" and the TDZ plus the always unspoken-of Rubber Deposits at the TDZs and you have the perfect recipe for what happened today.
Why can't Mumbai's runways be better maintained (or simply rebuilt elsewhere!)? On a few odd days, it's a disaster just waiting to happen.
Personally I would have gone around or diverted knowing Rwy14 and the conditions, but I wouldn't take anything away from the AI captain as one is always trying to make it in somehow, especially at your home base airport with... the main runway 09/27 closed... AND many passengers stranded for days together after the devastation of the floods... AND 14 being the ONLY runway out of FOUR that is open and available for landing (the rest of the airport being still fairly water-logged or very wet and the ILS-es of the other runways still not up and running).
But that's best left for another discussion to decide what was right or wrong.
As per TV reports, SQ had earlier decided not to operate to Mumbai since they cannot land there. Guess 14/32 isn't very popular among most of the foreign carriers... understandably too.
Yes, 940mm in 24 hours that day. 630mm of that fell in just 12 hours. It WAS hell on earth. I know... I slept the night on a cold, hard marble staircase on the 3rd floor of an office building I "found" while escaping the 5-foot floods
Was in pitch darkness with the electricity switched off all over the city. Later in the morning I found "my staircase" overlooked the threshold of Rwy 14
....and then walked 10km home amidst the devastation.Hope Mumbai recovers fast. Loads of garbage remains to be collected from the roads, carcasses of dead animals too, horrible stench in some areas. Watch out for diseases Mumbai, and good luck with the repair!
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Air India B744 skids
The Minister has already pointed blame at the Pilot.[ Yawn....tell me more ]
But it seems that the following could have been a contributory factor:
1. Shorter runway with light tail winds, Pilot landing deeper.
2. At the end of Rwy14, outside the perimeter wall flows a river, the same is used as a dumping place for used commercial oil in huge quantity and recent overflowing of the river and flooding could have led this oil slick to remain on the Rwy. The Airport guys don't have any Friction measurement system, to save their skin now they are broadcasting Rwy condition as 'poor' - the morons should know that the Rwy in that case should be closed !
But it seems that the following could have been a contributory factor:
1. Shorter runway with light tail winds, Pilot landing deeper.
2. At the end of Rwy14, outside the perimeter wall flows a river, the same is used as a dumping place for used commercial oil in huge quantity and recent overflowing of the river and flooding could have led this oil slick to remain on the Rwy. The Airport guys don't have any Friction measurement system, to save their skin now they are broadcasting Rwy condition as 'poor' - the morons should know that the Rwy in that case should be closed !
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Just had a listen to the latest ATIS
"E" 1410z (that's 1940hrs local time)
ILS 14
270/15
2200 meters
Moderate Rain
Few 1200'
Sct 1800'
Few CB 3000'
Bkn 10000'
26/21
1001
CB to East, tops 6km
Tempo 1500 meters in XXRA
"E" 1410z (that's 1940hrs local time)
ILS 14
270/15
2200 meters
Moderate Rain
Few 1200'
Sct 1800'
Few CB 3000'
Bkn 10000'
26/21
1001
CB to East, tops 6km
Tempo 1500 meters in XXRA
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I remember being in an AI A310 into Rwy14 .. we did not skid nor slip out way to the end but we bounced from one wheel to the other after being struck by a really sudden and strong crosswind.
Dno't know how many have seen that TAP A320 video where they had to go-around .. this was exactly the same.. only we were lower and no go-around. Passengers on wing seats reported that we almost had wingtip scrape!! Scary as hell!!
What's the length of Rwy14 ?
I was a bit surprised that 737's were going off that Rwy after the incident. It would have been an even better show had one of them needed to do a RTO!!
Dno't know how many have seen that TAP A320 video where they had to go-around .. this was exactly the same.. only we were lower and no go-around. Passengers on wing seats reported that we almost had wingtip scrape!! Scary as hell!!
What's the length of Rwy14 ?
I was a bit surprised that 737's were going off that Rwy after the incident. It would have been an even better show had one of them needed to do a RTO!!
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Think the AI captain might just have nailed himself.
Got a first hand report from a colleague who had a "balcony seat" view of the entire incident from the Holding Point Rwy14 while AI was landing.
Coming off the approach, the "flare" became a "float" (exactly what 14 approaches tend to do to you). The "Queen of the Skies" touched down somewhere near the intersection with Rwy 09/27. Scrambled for a stop and the rest we already know... nose wheel went over the edge by a few feet.
Against him :
He floated and landed deep instead of going around.
In his defence (if he officially ever has one!) bar-room talk would go like this :
Poor chap. Rwy14 is a nasty approach from 500' to touch down. Winds are never what they should be for that runway (always tail-cross) easily inducing "floats". We all know to come in 3-reds 1-white on Rwy14, but who'd do that on a 747 etc., etc...
Oxide, Rwy 14 is about ~9500'. Knock off some ~1500' for the displaced threshold and you're left with ~8000'. Say you touch down AT the 1000' marker (never!) you're left with 7000' to stop the aircraft.
AI apparently touched down near the 09/27 intersection and I venture an educated guess that would leave them some ~5000' to stop. Not nearly enough to stop a heavy 747, huh?
Got a first hand report from a colleague who had a "balcony seat" view of the entire incident from the Holding Point Rwy14 while AI was landing.
Coming off the approach, the "flare" became a "float" (exactly what 14 approaches tend to do to you). The "Queen of the Skies" touched down somewhere near the intersection with Rwy 09/27. Scrambled for a stop and the rest we already know... nose wheel went over the edge by a few feet.
Against him :
He floated and landed deep instead of going around.
In his defence (if he officially ever has one!) bar-room talk would go like this :
Poor chap. Rwy14 is a nasty approach from 500' to touch down. Winds are never what they should be for that runway (always tail-cross) easily inducing "floats". We all know to come in 3-reds 1-white on Rwy14, but who'd do that on a 747 etc., etc...
Oxide, Rwy 14 is about ~9500'. Knock off some ~1500' for the displaced threshold and you're left with ~8000'. Say you touch down AT the 1000' marker (never!) you're left with 7000' to stop the aircraft.
AI apparently touched down near the 09/27 intersection and I venture an educated guess that would leave them some ~5000' to stop. Not nearly enough to stop a heavy 747, huh?
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Guys,
I quote extensively from Rediffmail.com that carries the Minister's statements
QUOTE
"Preliminary reports suggest that the pilot did not apply full brakes to avoid skidding on the wet runway. He had estimated that the plane would come to a stop before the end of the runway. It did so, but the nosewheel went out of the runway by a few feet," he told reporters in New Delhi.
Patel said the Air India pilot was a senior executive pilot who had decided not to apply hard brakes, which could have increased the chances of skidding when torrential rains were on.
The secondary runway had taken the load of 500 flights since operations resumed at the Mumbai airport on Thursday afternoon, he said. "The secondary runway is always used when the main runway is not available," he said.
Replying to questions on the recent flooding of the airport, Patel said as the runways were submerged due to the heavy rains, the highly-sophisticated electronic instrument landing system and navigational aids were under water and
slush.
UNQUOTE
Your views ???????
Cheers
Joles
I quote extensively from Rediffmail.com that carries the Minister's statements
QUOTE
"Preliminary reports suggest that the pilot did not apply full brakes to avoid skidding on the wet runway. He had estimated that the plane would come to a stop before the end of the runway. It did so, but the nosewheel went out of the runway by a few feet," he told reporters in New Delhi.
Patel said the Air India pilot was a senior executive pilot who had decided not to apply hard brakes, which could have increased the chances of skidding when torrential rains were on.
The secondary runway had taken the load of 500 flights since operations resumed at the Mumbai airport on Thursday afternoon, he said. "The secondary runway is always used when the main runway is not available," he said.
Replying to questions on the recent flooding of the airport, Patel said as the runways were submerged due to the heavy rains, the highly-sophisticated electronic instrument landing system and navigational aids were under water and
slush.
UNQUOTE
Your views ???????
Cheers
Joles
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The rest of us would under the circumstances use a healthy amount of autobrakes, blissfully unaware that this would increase the chance of skidding.
To brake, or not to brake, that is the question...
To brake, or not to brake, that is the question...
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Was sitting in my cockpit observing from stand 62 and I did see the plane touchdown before the 09/27 intersecion. just wanted to say that after all this happened we were not allowed to take off from Rwy 09/27 because as per the ground controller the navaids were inop - anyone care to explain that mind boggling one! After waiting for two hours during which time we all (30 odd a/c) questioned various sources over the r/t and the phone to clarif this, we were allowed to go using our take off alternates. Is using take off alternates not common there? During the waiting period the r/t over ground was hilarious and the ground controller once replied to a query about an aircrafts sequence by saying 'now the sequence has gone for a six' 
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ban the damn runway
why dont we pilots get together and refuse to use this runway when it is wet.all airlines all pilots getting together through the union or what ever.
the minister can say the airfield is operational,like hell it is. a six o clock flight takes off at 1030. the atc has no idea about LTOM.they have no idea when the main runway will be available.and i want to meet the gentleman who refused to land on rnwy 09 saying strong tail winds. hello you want to land on rnwy 14 with the same winds[almost] . are you insane , rnwy 09 is the longest rnwy at mumbai. rnwy 14 is the worst rnwy in the world.they should close the airfield down, imagine the plight of the pax and the staff.
the touch down zone of 14 is like a ski jump.dont laugh at the poor captain please,that is a job of the dgca.
the minister can say the airfield is operational,like hell it is. a six o clock flight takes off at 1030. the atc has no idea about LTOM.they have no idea when the main runway will be available.and i want to meet the gentleman who refused to land on rnwy 09 saying strong tail winds. hello you want to land on rnwy 14 with the same winds[almost] . are you insane , rnwy 09 is the longest rnwy at mumbai. rnwy 14 is the worst rnwy in the world.they should close the airfield down, imagine the plight of the pax and the staff.
the touch down zone of 14 is like a ski jump.dont laugh at the poor captain please,that is a job of the dgca.
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AIR INDIA Skids off Runway
The following is an extract in brief from " The Hindu" Newspaper of today (NOT verbatum )
An Air India 747-400 went off the runway using RW 14 for landing. RW 27 at BOM has been unavailable for landing since 26 JUL afternoon due to heavy rains and nonavailability of ILS for all runways. The runway 14 is 9596 feet but as the landing threshold is displaced, the LDA is reduced to 8258 feet.On using the ILS the touchdown point is further extended and LDA is 7229 feet.
The conditions prevailing at the time were runway wet and winds 270/12 Kts. A colleague who landed a couple of hours earlier reported seeing 22 Kts tailwind at 100 feet reducing to 13 kts at touch down using Autobrakes 3 and Max reversers on a 737 ng landing at 57 Tonnes landing weight.
We all know that a wet runway takes up 30% penalty for stopping and the tailwinds can play havoc. Combined with the slush and standing water for the time prior to this aircraft landing could have been contributory factors.
Some additional observations on BOM.
1. Every monsoon BOM weather radar is declared unseviceable.
2. Through the year RW 27 is in use because it being the RW with serviceable ILS
3. RW 09 ILS has been installed but the Glide has been Not available since God knows when.
4 Earlier the ATIS used to give the Friction Coefficient but a few years back during monsoons Saudia Jumbo diverted to MADRAS and since then this info is not transmitted on ATIS anymore.
An Air India 747-400 went off the runway using RW 14 for landing. RW 27 at BOM has been unavailable for landing since 26 JUL afternoon due to heavy rains and nonavailability of ILS for all runways. The runway 14 is 9596 feet but as the landing threshold is displaced, the LDA is reduced to 8258 feet.On using the ILS the touchdown point is further extended and LDA is 7229 feet.
The conditions prevailing at the time were runway wet and winds 270/12 Kts. A colleague who landed a couple of hours earlier reported seeing 22 Kts tailwind at 100 feet reducing to 13 kts at touch down using Autobrakes 3 and Max reversers on a 737 ng landing at 57 Tonnes landing weight.
We all know that a wet runway takes up 30% penalty for stopping and the tailwinds can play havoc. Combined with the slush and standing water for the time prior to this aircraft landing could have been contributory factors.
Some additional observations on BOM.
1. Every monsoon BOM weather radar is declared unseviceable.
2. Through the year RW 27 is in use because it being the RW with serviceable ILS
3. RW 09 ILS has been installed but the Glide has been Not available since God knows when.
4 Earlier the ATIS used to give the Friction Coefficient but a few years back during monsoons Saudia Jumbo diverted to MADRAS and since then this info is not transmitted on ATIS anymore.
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9Ws:
Whenever you raise the issue of poor maintenance or service in India, you will invariably be told that "we are short of hands".
This, of course, in a country with millions of unemployed, is pure BS. The true meaning is that "not enough palms have been greased".
Whenever you raise the issue of poor maintenance or service in India, you will invariably be told that "we are short of hands".
This, of course, in a country with millions of unemployed, is pure BS. The true meaning is that "not enough palms have been greased".
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ManaAdaSystem :
Do you know how much (or rather: how little) an ISO certificate costs in India and China?
And even if it is legitimate, it only means you have systems in place to verify quality and rectify faults, so that your quality is consistent. It has no bearing whatsoever on the absolute level of quality.
Do you know how much (or rather: how little) an ISO certificate costs in India and China?
And even if it is legitimate, it only means you have systems in place to verify quality and rectify faults, so that your quality is consistent. It has no bearing whatsoever on the absolute level of quality.
Perhaps the crew should have read this first; some knowledge that we all could refresh.
Managing the Threats and Errors during Approach and Landing from the Flight Safety Foundation (2.7 Mb download powerpoint presentation - right click, save as).
I have also seen an excellent presentation and separate video on ‘Adverse Weather – The Indian Monsoon’ produced by the Indian ALAR Task Force and Indian FID – DGAC. Does anyone have a web link or CD of these?
Managing the Threats and Errors during Approach and Landing from the Flight Safety Foundation (2.7 Mb download powerpoint presentation - right click, save as).
I have also seen an excellent presentation and separate video on ‘Adverse Weather – The Indian Monsoon’ produced by the Indian ALAR Task Force and Indian FID – DGAC. Does anyone have a web link or CD of these?
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And if they swap ends of the runway, you get the breathtaking views of Trombay Hill on the VOR to 32.
As mentioned earlier, 9-27 is no picnic when it's wet with all the rubber buildup. A jumbo seems to slide off every year or two. The slums and infamous public "facilities" at the approach end of runway 27 are supposed to be relocated. Sadly, the rains may have moved them with tragic results. The Sahar Airport Road was in the process of being cleaned up, it is the visitor's first impression leaving the terminal of the poverty, suffering and filth that is street life in BOM. Hopefully some of this new wealth buying Rolls Royces in Bandra will filter down to those who need it most...
As mentioned earlier, 9-27 is no picnic when it's wet with all the rubber buildup. A jumbo seems to slide off every year or two. The slums and infamous public "facilities" at the approach end of runway 27 are supposed to be relocated. Sadly, the rains may have moved them with tragic results. The Sahar Airport Road was in the process of being cleaned up, it is the visitor's first impression leaving the terminal of the poverty, suffering and filth that is street life in BOM. Hopefully some of this new wealth buying Rolls Royces in Bandra will filter down to those who need it most...