Judas Balpa CC at EZY!
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Slim20
Your suggestion is irresponsible and totally unprofessional. At a a time of staggeringly high oil prices your idea, if carried out long-term accross an airline, might lead to possible redundancies due to excessive financial pressure. Deliberately throwing away profit most certainly would not get you a pay rise!
Stu and others
Balpa didn't introduce TRSS. Balpa didn't negotiate it 'in'. It was intruduced as a company scheme and applicants took up the deal. It's not our deal but many have said that they would not have a job if it had not been for the scheme. I don't like it personally but why are so many doing it??
Whether or not you believe it (and I lnow you won't because it would ruin your argument) but your payrise last year would have been non-existent without Balpa. That's fact whether you like it or not so you can argue percentages from now till doomsday but I know what happened in the talks and, clearly, you do not.
We published the details but you obviously chose not to read it or not to believe it.
The CC spend much of their own time trying to protect what little we have. Sometimes it's a battle royal to maintain the status quo.
What we can always rely on is that there will always be someone, who personally has done square root of FA but knows more (without being there) does more (without lifting a finger) promises more (without understanding a thing) and shouts about it all day!
Bokkenrijder
Yes we appear to be from different planets. Your views do not seem to match the majority but i should apparently bow to your wishes.
As regards the survey.......no! But i would suggest that everyone avail themselves of a suitable financial appraisal of the airline business for the the present and the educated guesswork for the next 6-12 months and then look at the survey again.
The CC did the work and that's why we came to a different conclusion.
However, we will act on the results. This is a democracy - even if you don't agree.
I'll quit this thread now but happy to continue on the new Balpa forum - (which is working perfectly well by the way and has been since Thursday!)
Your suggestion is irresponsible and totally unprofessional. At a a time of staggeringly high oil prices your idea, if carried out long-term accross an airline, might lead to possible redundancies due to excessive financial pressure. Deliberately throwing away profit most certainly would not get you a pay rise!
Stu and others
Balpa didn't introduce TRSS. Balpa didn't negotiate it 'in'. It was intruduced as a company scheme and applicants took up the deal. It's not our deal but many have said that they would not have a job if it had not been for the scheme. I don't like it personally but why are so many doing it??
Whether or not you believe it (and I lnow you won't because it would ruin your argument) but your payrise last year would have been non-existent without Balpa. That's fact whether you like it or not so you can argue percentages from now till doomsday but I know what happened in the talks and, clearly, you do not.
We published the details but you obviously chose not to read it or not to believe it.
The CC spend much of their own time trying to protect what little we have. Sometimes it's a battle royal to maintain the status quo.
What we can always rely on is that there will always be someone, who personally has done square root of FA but knows more (without being there) does more (without lifting a finger) promises more (without understanding a thing) and shouts about it all day!
Bokkenrijder
Yes we appear to be from different planets. Your views do not seem to match the majority but i should apparently bow to your wishes.
As regards the survey.......no! But i would suggest that everyone avail themselves of a suitable financial appraisal of the airline business for the the present and the educated guesswork for the next 6-12 months and then look at the survey again.
The CC did the work and that's why we came to a different conclusion.
However, we will act on the results. This is a democracy - even if you don't agree.
I'll quit this thread now but happy to continue on the new Balpa forum - (which is working perfectly well by the way and has been since Thursday!)
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FlapsOne
I'd love to come and read the BALPA forum (and I guess this is where I'd find the "published" details on the pay rise), but I can't afford to pay £350 to do so.
I have £70,000 of debt to easyJet and Oxford.
I wish I could get involved to help us employees, but again £350 is cash I don't have.
At the time, the TRSS was the only choice. But it isn't now. Only those who are too gash to get bonded jobs are left with the TRSS option.
Finally, TRSS is very poor for employee loyalty. Normally, one feels that the employee owes the company something for investing in the employee - but now, all FO's for the last few years feel that eJ owes them something.
£23,000 to be exact.
Stu
I'd love to come and read the BALPA forum (and I guess this is where I'd find the "published" details on the pay rise), but I can't afford to pay £350 to do so.
I have £70,000 of debt to easyJet and Oxford.
I wish I could get involved to help us employees, but again £350 is cash I don't have.
At the time, the TRSS was the only choice. But it isn't now. Only those who are too gash to get bonded jobs are left with the TRSS option.
Finally, TRSS is very poor for employee loyalty. Normally, one feels that the employee owes the company something for investing in the employee - but now, all FO's for the last few years feel that eJ owes them something.
£23,000 to be exact.
Stu
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I understand your position Stu, TRSS does not create any loyalty and undermines BALPA. People just ´join´ eJ to log the hours and then leave again.
Unfortunately folks like F1 do not seem to understand that this (again!) totally undermines BALPA in the long run.
For the few older (but not necesarily wiser
) TRSS F/O´s like myself, who were led to believe that eJ was a real career airline, it´s a sad reality. I´m also looking for greener pastures now, but I don´t feel like moving again and starting from stratch.
I voted mainly for F/O´s for the new CC, now let´s hope that they can blow a little fresh air through eJ.
Unfortunately folks like F1 do not seem to understand that this (again!) totally undermines BALPA in the long run.
For the few older (but not necesarily wiser
) TRSS F/O´s like myself, who were led to believe that eJ was a real career airline, it´s a sad reality. I´m also looking for greener pastures now, but I don´t feel like moving again and starting from stratch.I voted mainly for F/O´s for the new CC, now let´s hope that they can blow a little fresh air through eJ.
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Why would it cost £350 to join. i think your numbers are wrong! (1/2 per cent year one and tax relief to follow??)
Why does TRSS undermine Balpa? Surely it has nothing to do with Balpa.
The current CC has 2 FOs, one is TRSS. The last 5 or 6 monthly minutes i received said each time the efforts they are going to to improve the loan arrangements and rates etc. It's in black and white.
i'm watching all this from within, but what on earth do you guys want?
You made the decision to join under TRSS and now you blame Balpa - weird!
Lst year I was not sure wheter to join Balpa or not but listening to you guys - i'm glad i did...
btw. Instead of voting for FOs, i don't suppose you put your name forward did you?
Why does TRSS undermine Balpa? Surely it has nothing to do with Balpa.
The current CC has 2 FOs, one is TRSS. The last 5 or 6 monthly minutes i received said each time the efforts they are going to to improve the loan arrangements and rates etc. It's in black and white.
i'm watching all this from within, but what on earth do you guys want?
You made the decision to join under TRSS and now you blame Balpa - weird!
Lst year I was not sure wheter to join Balpa or not but listening to you guys - i'm glad i did...
btw. Instead of voting for FOs, i don't suppose you put your name forward did you?
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Flaps One, you accuse the antis of lying, but you are the liar. I have rarely seen you post anything honest; it's always a distortion of the truth or an all out lie. You suck up to the mgmt in a vain effort to get your TRI/TRE promotion, but it won't happen. Want to know why? The 3 CC members that were bought by Ray were a major thorn in his side - they were veciferous in their dealings on the council, and were pushing towards industrial action. They only started to paly along once they were promoted. Since you're already a tame little poodle, why bother promoting you?
The reason that membership in EZY is so poor is that those running the CC, even the initially honest, are corrupted by EZY mgmt, and end up selling the members out. It's that simple.
The reason that membership in EZY is so poor is that those running the CC, even the initially honest, are corrupted by EZY mgmt, and end up selling the members out. It's that simple.
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whippersnapper -I rarely peruse the drivel prevalent in pprune let alone respond -however,I am compelled to contribute as your accusations -bordering on the scandalous-are completely false.
The cc members who were TRE's were long standing members of the 737 training team and not 'bribed' by offers of improved training qualifications,ie they were TRE's before union involvement;in fact knowing them all well I am only too aware of the huge amount of work and effort put in by these individuals versus the 'challenges' they faced with negotiations with management.I am leaving to join a company where the terms and conditions reflect the strength of the union membership.w/s you too should reflect on outrageous and totally incorrect lies.
vociferous is not spelt with an 'e'
rgds,
Blair Boyle
Training Standards/737/easyJet
The cc members who were TRE's were long standing members of the 737 training team and not 'bribed' by offers of improved training qualifications,ie they were TRE's before union involvement;in fact knowing them all well I am only too aware of the huge amount of work and effort put in by these individuals versus the 'challenges' they faced with negotiations with management.I am leaving to join a company where the terms and conditions reflect the strength of the union membership.w/s you too should reflect on outrageous and totally incorrect lies.
vociferous is not spelt with an 'e'
rgds,
Blair Boyle
Training Standards/737/easyJet
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I have to respond to that!
Whippersnapper -
I have accused no-one of lying, but you have.
Ray brought no-one to the CC - what nonsense is that?
You have really strange ideas if you think that some of the arguments we have with the other side of the table could ever be described as 'sucking up'. You make that statement with no knowledge whatsover. There have been no favours or back door deals.
Furthermore, the people we meet with each month have nothing to do with TRI/TRE appointments (not to mention the courses that must be passed - it's not a gift!) so I don't really know what the hell you're on about with that rubbish. It is also very insulting.
You also totally misunderstand the membership levels. Sure, it's not 90%, but it certainly isn't poor. I want to see 90%+ so we can really get results - but according to you I would just suck up to management - why the hell do I want more members then!!!!!!
Now you say that you have never seen anything honest from me yet I can prove everything I have said and provide witnesses.........but you are really not worth the effort.
3 guys here have gone on about industrial action, and 1 isn't even a member...........what a mandate!
whippersnapper and others..........if you are so damned good, please get off your backsides and do the job yourselves.
We will take consructive criticism any day but the above posted nonsense needs confining to the trash can!
Over and definitely out!!
Whippersnapper -
I have accused no-one of lying, but you have.
Ray brought no-one to the CC - what nonsense is that?
You have really strange ideas if you think that some of the arguments we have with the other side of the table could ever be described as 'sucking up'. You make that statement with no knowledge whatsover. There have been no favours or back door deals.
Furthermore, the people we meet with each month have nothing to do with TRI/TRE appointments (not to mention the courses that must be passed - it's not a gift!) so I don't really know what the hell you're on about with that rubbish. It is also very insulting.
You also totally misunderstand the membership levels. Sure, it's not 90%, but it certainly isn't poor. I want to see 90%+ so we can really get results - but according to you I would just suck up to management - why the hell do I want more members then!!!!!!
Now you say that you have never seen anything honest from me yet I can prove everything I have said and provide witnesses.........but you are really not worth the effort.
3 guys here have gone on about industrial action, and 1 isn't even a member...........what a mandate!
whippersnapper and others..........if you are so damned good, please get off your backsides and do the job yourselves.
We will take consructive criticism any day but the above posted nonsense needs confining to the trash can!
Over and definitely out!!
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whippersnapper
i am no lover of FlapsOne /the BALPA cc, we have crossed swords many times on the BALPA board .(i hope constructively)
I must tell you that Blair Boyle is completely correct . Two of the Gentlemen (and that is what they surely are) you refer to are known to me personally , i am not a trainer , simply a line pilot .Your comments about these two guys ( i do not know the third ) are scandalous . Two finer men ,pilots and trainers you could not meet anywhere . They have given their time and in some cases their health to improve all our lots . It may not be to your liking but at least they tried to do something constructive about things.
You should retract your purile nonsense forthwith .
Direct your fire where it belongs; the Make a Difference , Step Change crowd .
Regards
NF
i am no lover of FlapsOne /the BALPA cc, we have crossed swords many times on the BALPA board .(i hope constructively)
I must tell you that Blair Boyle is completely correct . Two of the Gentlemen (and that is what they surely are) you refer to are known to me personally , i am not a trainer , simply a line pilot .Your comments about these two guys ( i do not know the third ) are scandalous . Two finer men ,pilots and trainers you could not meet anywhere . They have given their time and in some cases their health to improve all our lots . It may not be to your liking but at least they tried to do something constructive about things.
You should retract your purile nonsense forthwith .
Direct your fire where it belongs; the Make a Difference , Step Change crowd .
Regards
NF
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Flaps one
BALPA should be negotiating to stop this TRSS nonsence it has no place in this industry and will ruin everyones future!
For those considering TRSS your better off being unemployed!
As some one has pointed out £23 000 and then put up with all the crap what other proffesional signs up for that S%it?
If you signed up for it you deserve all you get! Harsh but true!
As for the pay off rumors to CC members I'm with Blair its bull****, the guys concerend are gentlmen although we may disagree on some points they are formost gentlemen and do not deserve to be slated on this public forum!
BALPA should be negotiating to stop this TRSS nonsence it has no place in this industry and will ruin everyones future!
For those considering TRSS your better off being unemployed!
As some one has pointed out £23 000 and then put up with all the crap what other proffesional signs up for that S%it?
If you signed up for it you deserve all you get! Harsh but true!
As for the pay off rumors to CC members I'm with Blair its bull****, the guys concerend are gentlmen although we may disagree on some points they are formost gentlemen and do not deserve to be slated on this public forum!
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I don't know the story well enough to know who we are talking about, so I am not going to comment on the truefulness of the allegations made. They are very serious though and the people that make them better know what they are doing.
I am not a Balpa member for reasons that go further back than my EJ employment and sofar I haven't been tempted to revert that decission. I fail to understand how I am supposed to feel more rested after 5 earlies; one of their 'major achievements' that have made my life worse than before. Could it be that it is not that the CC don't know how to fight our battle, it is more that they fight the wrong battle? But maybe that's too much of a sidestep for now.
However, I do want to say this: If there was at any time a Ryanair pilot having serious doubts about putting his job on the line in order to join Balpa, instead of just keeping his head down, I recon after reading this topic he/she will be cured. What a fine display of unison!
Hopefully for their sake, Outofsynch was right when he said that Balpa is not some organisation, but actually just the pilots involved... Maybe they still have a chance then!
I am not a Balpa member for reasons that go further back than my EJ employment and sofar I haven't been tempted to revert that decission. I fail to understand how I am supposed to feel more rested after 5 earlies; one of their 'major achievements' that have made my life worse than before. Could it be that it is not that the CC don't know how to fight our battle, it is more that they fight the wrong battle? But maybe that's too much of a sidestep for now.
However, I do want to say this: If there was at any time a Ryanair pilot having serious doubts about putting his job on the line in order to join Balpa, instead of just keeping his head down, I recon after reading this topic he/she will be cured. What a fine display of unison!
Hopefully for their sake, Outofsynch was right when he said that Balpa is not some organisation, but actually just the pilots involved... Maybe they still have a chance then!
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There is an easy way to stop this TRSS crap.
Don't sign on the dotted line.
Unfortunately our colleagues scrambling for jobs are more than happy to shove others aside and sign on the dotted line.
I always thought TRSS would come back to bite the people who signed up for it. As soon as the market turns and easyJet struggles for pilots TRSS will disappear or they'll end up getting the dregs that no one else wants. Those that have signed will be bonded for 5 years on the reduced salary whilst new joiners will no doubt be on a higher salary with traditional bond.
The only people to blame for the "success" of TRSS are the people that signed up for it. But as is typical of today's society they are not to blame......
As a BALPA member I don't see what mandate BALPA has to influence recruitment policy...
Don't sign on the dotted line.
Unfortunately our colleagues scrambling for jobs are more than happy to shove others aside and sign on the dotted line.
I always thought TRSS would come back to bite the people who signed up for it. As soon as the market turns and easyJet struggles for pilots TRSS will disappear or they'll end up getting the dregs that no one else wants. Those that have signed will be bonded for 5 years on the reduced salary whilst new joiners will no doubt be on a higher salary with traditional bond.
The only people to blame for the "success" of TRSS are the people that signed up for it. But as is typical of today's society they are not to blame......
As a BALPA member I don't see what mandate BALPA has to influence recruitment policy...
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I hereby offer to help. I will put in time and effort. I would love to. I also feel I'd be good at it (given my "previous life").
But I can't afford the BALPA sub. If BALPA would like to offer me a fixed rate the same as the IPA/IPF, then I'll be there straight away. CC and all (if people would let me).
Anyone in BALPA who could sort this, please PM me!
Stu
But I can't afford the BALPA sub. If BALPA would like to offer me a fixed rate the same as the IPA/IPF, then I'll be there straight away. CC and all (if people would let me).
Anyone in BALPA who could sort this, please PM me!
Stu
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Well if you're an S/FO and you join BALPA it is half price for your first year and 0.75% for your second. You'll get tax relief on your subs to the tune of 40% of 66.67 % of your membership fees.
Rough figures suggest it maybe £2 more expensive per month than the IPA for the first year.....How does £13.00 a month sound? It maybe less as those figures are calculated on top scale old SFO....
Anyhow you could give it a go for a year and see what you think.
You can join at www.balpa.org
Rough figures suggest it maybe £2 more expensive per month than the IPA for the first year.....How does £13.00 a month sound? It maybe less as those figures are calculated on top scale old SFO....
Anyhow you could give it a go for a year and see what you think.
You can join at www.balpa.org
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Gentlemen,
I am extremely distressed at some of the foul-mouthed diatribe I am reading, and I think it is overdue to call a stop to this nonsense. I have avoided entering in to this debate before now but it has got totally out of hand.
Lest any of you have any doubt who I am, I was proud to be the Chairman of the CC for about two years, until April this year. I probably still would be, but nearly lost my medical in the process due to the sheer stress of the work involved.
Firstly, a great many changes have taken place to our working arrangements over the last few years. Remember also, that the CC is an unpaid body of volunteers who freely give their time to protect YOUR pay and conditions. As Ojay quite rightly points out, the airline he is about to join has a high Balpa membership and the best terms and conditions in the industry. A few years ago, VAA got a 26.5% pay rise with a membership level above 90%!! In other words, the members gave their CC the tools to do the job, and they did it well in both cases.
We all know easyJet is difficult; they strive to cut costs, frequently at their own employees expense. They have tried to make us competitive to ensure you have a job in the future, yet we all give a 100% and often don't get rewarded the same way. Let me correct a few misconceptions:
To the PR!CK that insulted FlapsOnes personal integrity and professionalism, how dare you suggest he has secured his promotion on the basis of his CC work. This guy above all others has given two years of unparalleled support to you all and this attack is shameful. Bearing in mind he has often been at loggerheads with the company during this time , it is actually very surprising that they promoted him.So to is the suggestion that some of the CC who got paid out for their shares capitulated to managment in the process! One of these is the ex Rostering sub-committee and another was the CC chairman before me, another a well-respected Base Trainer from LPL. I don't think anyone would accuse MC of being a management stooge!!!!These guys were lied to, and sought to get justice and did so.This was going on while they were acting on your behalf to secure better terms for YOU, so I hope you feel suitably shamed by this outright lie.
Remember gentlemen, those who complain about the CC should rememeber that it is a member -driven organisation and a few years ago we did a survey to find out what you wanted. A similar survey was done recently. Sometimes, in negotiations, something has to be given away to get or retain something bigger. A case in point was the 8 Public Holidays, which were traded so that you ALL could have Summer leave this year, or we would still be at the negotiating table. The horrible mess of the GDO system suggests thast one day soon, the 5th week may be restored and if it is, it will be down to the CC. For those who suggest the 5/2/5/4 is not working properly, have a close look at the current shortages across the network; it was never envisaged that they would run the crews so low or train new Airbus bases over Summer, or many other things they do but this is not our fault.
I could go on all night but nothing would be impossible if we had the tools to do the job, we would be able to tell the easyJet management what we want. I suggest each and every one of you has a good look at what you want, and think long and hard about what you are prepared to do to get it. But don't come crying to me if you are not a member of Balpa, or are not prepared to do some of the fighting yourself.
I am extremely distressed at some of the foul-mouthed diatribe I am reading, and I think it is overdue to call a stop to this nonsense. I have avoided entering in to this debate before now but it has got totally out of hand.
Lest any of you have any doubt who I am, I was proud to be the Chairman of the CC for about two years, until April this year. I probably still would be, but nearly lost my medical in the process due to the sheer stress of the work involved.
Firstly, a great many changes have taken place to our working arrangements over the last few years. Remember also, that the CC is an unpaid body of volunteers who freely give their time to protect YOUR pay and conditions. As Ojay quite rightly points out, the airline he is about to join has a high Balpa membership and the best terms and conditions in the industry. A few years ago, VAA got a 26.5% pay rise with a membership level above 90%!! In other words, the members gave their CC the tools to do the job, and they did it well in both cases.
We all know easyJet is difficult; they strive to cut costs, frequently at their own employees expense. They have tried to make us competitive to ensure you have a job in the future, yet we all give a 100% and often don't get rewarded the same way. Let me correct a few misconceptions:
To the PR!CK that insulted FlapsOnes personal integrity and professionalism, how dare you suggest he has secured his promotion on the basis of his CC work. This guy above all others has given two years of unparalleled support to you all and this attack is shameful. Bearing in mind he has often been at loggerheads with the company during this time , it is actually very surprising that they promoted him.So to is the suggestion that some of the CC who got paid out for their shares capitulated to managment in the process! One of these is the ex Rostering sub-committee and another was the CC chairman before me, another a well-respected Base Trainer from LPL. I don't think anyone would accuse MC of being a management stooge!!!!These guys were lied to, and sought to get justice and did so.This was going on while they were acting on your behalf to secure better terms for YOU, so I hope you feel suitably shamed by this outright lie.
Remember gentlemen, those who complain about the CC should rememeber that it is a member -driven organisation and a few years ago we did a survey to find out what you wanted. A similar survey was done recently. Sometimes, in negotiations, something has to be given away to get or retain something bigger. A case in point was the 8 Public Holidays, which were traded so that you ALL could have Summer leave this year, or we would still be at the negotiating table. The horrible mess of the GDO system suggests thast one day soon, the 5th week may be restored and if it is, it will be down to the CC. For those who suggest the 5/2/5/4 is not working properly, have a close look at the current shortages across the network; it was never envisaged that they would run the crews so low or train new Airbus bases over Summer, or many other things they do but this is not our fault.
I could go on all night but nothing would be impossible if we had the tools to do the job, we would be able to tell the easyJet management what we want. I suggest each and every one of you has a good look at what you want, and think long and hard about what you are prepared to do to get it. But don't come crying to me if you are not a member of Balpa, or are not prepared to do some of the fighting yourself.
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Apology
I want o appologise for my previous thread. It overstated my view on the matter, and such strong accusations are unwarranted.
what I wanted to say, but failed to do so, was the the 3 members I mentioned were extremely effective in their early efforts, which is why they recieved such endorsement by the memebrs when they were co-opted oto the council. They did a huge amount of work, had a lot of great ideas and took an very tough stance. My perspective though was that this waned somewhat a while after they became TREs. This may well have been down to other pressures reducing time available, to mgmt playimg silly buggers or whatever, but the drive was lost.
what I wanted to say, but failed to do so, was the the 3 members I mentioned were extremely effective in their early efforts, which is why they recieved such endorsement by the memebrs when they were co-opted oto the council. They did a huge amount of work, had a lot of great ideas and took an very tough stance. My perspective though was that this waned somewhat a while after they became TREs. This may well have been down to other pressures reducing time available, to mgmt playimg silly buggers or whatever, but the drive was lost.
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Having been at easy longer than most, I am iritated to hear TRSS candidates or anyone else complaining about their lot at easy. This may be unjuistified on my part but the current salaries and conditions are due to the hard work of the current and previous BALPA comittees and support of members.
Your 1% was earned a long time ago by members who contributed without the tax break.
Thanks John, Mark, Kevin, Murray, Paul and the rest. The small steps have always been in the right direction.
Jset
Your 1% was earned a long time ago by members who contributed without the tax break.
Thanks John, Mark, Kevin, Murray, Paul and the rest. The small steps have always been in the right direction.
Jset
Well done, Whippersnapper, for your gracious apology to the guys concerned, and knowing them as well as I do, I can assure you that they put in every available moment and some others on their members behalf.
Continually fighting against a management team who 1) won't listen, 2) hear what they want to hear and 3) don't care anyway, is one of the most soul destroying occupations I have ever seen. Let me remind you all that one of the gentlemen concerned was put through great personal distress and sickness, and 2 others almost lost their flying, following the amount of time spent on the members behalf.
In a previous company, CC members were given 2 days off roster a month for BALPA business, what do our guys get - nothing. They fly a full programme just like everyone else, and those who are trainers, who seem to be the most slated, have just gone through an extra standardisation exercise, completed of course in their own time. These gentlemen also give of their best as trainers as well.
Give the guys a break, or join, apply for the CC in the elections and do it your way, you will also get my support. But do know what you are up against and try not to knock those who are doing their best for the members.
Continually fighting against a management team who 1) won't listen, 2) hear what they want to hear and 3) don't care anyway, is one of the most soul destroying occupations I have ever seen. Let me remind you all that one of the gentlemen concerned was put through great personal distress and sickness, and 2 others almost lost their flying, following the amount of time spent on the members behalf.
In a previous company, CC members were given 2 days off roster a month for BALPA business, what do our guys get - nothing. They fly a full programme just like everyone else, and those who are trainers, who seem to be the most slated, have just gone through an extra standardisation exercise, completed of course in their own time. These gentlemen also give of their best as trainers as well.
Give the guys a break, or join, apply for the CC in the elections and do it your way, you will also get my support. But do know what you are up against and try not to knock those who are doing their best for the members.