More madness at BA.
Guest
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Well said chaps.
If I need to go long haul anywhere as a pax I avoid BA like the plague; the obviously bad attitude that is directed at the flight deck is also directed at the pax.
Most of them are miserable ba**ards..
What you all need is CC like we've got, 99% of them a pleasure to work with. If a hand strays in to switch on Cabin Seat Power, or adjust the heating on the OHP then they get told firmly but politely to keep hands away from things that don't concern them. Then they know where they stand in the scheme of things, but don't cause problems either because you haven't actually torn them to shreds - as some skippers do.
Anyway, isn't it time that political correctness was given the boot ?? And yes, bring back national service....
If I need to go long haul anywhere as a pax I avoid BA like the plague; the obviously bad attitude that is directed at the flight deck is also directed at the pax.
Most of them are miserable ba**ards..
What you all need is CC like we've got, 99% of them a pleasure to work with. If a hand strays in to switch on Cabin Seat Power, or adjust the heating on the OHP then they get told firmly but politely to keep hands away from things that don't concern them. Then they know where they stand in the scheme of things, but don't cause problems either because you haven't actually torn them to shreds - as some skippers do.
Anyway, isn't it time that political correctness was given the boot ?? And yes, bring back national service....
Guest
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Blimey, after nearly 20yrs of pushing a tea pot around I did'nt realise how much we are held in contempt,a bit sad really cos I've always got on with all our F/D and have some very fond memories of excellent trips,and good rounds of golf.The vitriol that has come out in this post has left a bitter taste in the mouth,shame really.
[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 28 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 28 April 2001).]
Guest
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I have a lot of sympathy for the drivers a BA who are suffering from this CC problem. Get real guys...it's not the pilots who are to blame here. It is the restructuring of corporate culture which results in the reduction of authority of the Skipper. The party to blame is Management. They do very little to support pilot groups...especially when the s**t hits the fan regarding political correctness. As for this attitude that CC are our professional equals...bulls**t! I firmly believe in CRM, and everyone working together as a team, but do the cabin crew have to take mind blowing, stressful exams to gain their licence...are they in constant fear of loosing their job...obviously not. They are not our equals...hence the salary difference. Do they carry the responsibility of the pax?..NO. The CC need to be reminded...because they have clearly forgotten, just who is in charge, and that is the Captain. Who does the CAA chase after if there is an accident? The cc have gotten used to the idea that they can get things their own way by reporting the flightdeck. The cc need a swipt reality check.
Guest
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COINCIDENCE?
I find it strange that a similar inverted bias has beeen in progress in the USA.
I once had a F/A seriously threaten to write up a S/O for using the obscene term 'cockpit.' Being familiar with the issue from other complaints, I reminded her that the term came from the French background, meaning 'boat servant's pit.' I was purposely unkind about advising her that her ability to distort language did not entitle her to deny anyone their infamous 'First Amendment' rights.
Another of her pals from the crew came up to advise me that I had no right to hurt her feelings. Eventually it went nowhere.
Such C/C power-trips are equally common in the USA. It strikes me odd to see an identical response by management.
Amazingly, the F/As are famous for doing things which dwarf any obscenities by pilots. While the male mindset finds most of these F/A antics as entertaining, they CANNOT be treated with equal punitive reaction by management. In short, the CC have a license to kill in the USA, also.
A female pilot once tried to make an issue out of the non-personal sexual inuendo's in the cockpit. I remeinded her that if such rendered her unable to function, an engine failure would obviously render her far more unable, and that I could do without her services as a pilot. She gracefully admitted her agreement - on second thought. I later heard her support my opinion.
The sad part, is that we get on the aircraft as professionals. These nonsensical power-trips need to be stopped by whatever means available.
I find it strange that a similar inverted bias has beeen in progress in the USA.
I once had a F/A seriously threaten to write up a S/O for using the obscene term 'cockpit.' Being familiar with the issue from other complaints, I reminded her that the term came from the French background, meaning 'boat servant's pit.' I was purposely unkind about advising her that her ability to distort language did not entitle her to deny anyone their infamous 'First Amendment' rights.
Another of her pals from the crew came up to advise me that I had no right to hurt her feelings. Eventually it went nowhere.
Such C/C power-trips are equally common in the USA. It strikes me odd to see an identical response by management.
Amazingly, the F/As are famous for doing things which dwarf any obscenities by pilots. While the male mindset finds most of these F/A antics as entertaining, they CANNOT be treated with equal punitive reaction by management. In short, the CC have a license to kill in the USA, also.
A female pilot once tried to make an issue out of the non-personal sexual inuendo's in the cockpit. I remeinded her that if such rendered her unable to function, an engine failure would obviously render her far more unable, and that I could do without her services as a pilot. She gracefully admitted her agreement - on second thought. I later heard her support my opinion.
The sad part, is that we get on the aircraft as professionals. These nonsensical power-trips need to be stopped by whatever means available.
Guest
Posts: n/a
99% of cabin crew at BA are of good quality and 1% are not.
There is always ONE that spoils it for the rest.
It is true that respect for pilots & Captain's needs to be earned but ascribed authority and respect comes with the job and there is the problem I feel. Cabin Crew at BA have in general (sorry, to generalise) forgotten this simple point.
A polite push in the right direction is all we can do on a daily basis unless their performance is less than our bottom line.
What do you all you BA cabin crew reading this feel ?
TTFN.
The Zombie
There is always ONE that spoils it for the rest.
It is true that respect for pilots & Captain's needs to be earned but ascribed authority and respect comes with the job and there is the problem I feel. Cabin Crew at BA have in general (sorry, to generalise) forgotten this simple point.
A polite push in the right direction is all we can do on a daily basis unless their performance is less than our bottom line.
What do you all you BA cabin crew reading this feel ?
TTFN.
The Zombie
Guest
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Have to agree...
Whilst all these stories are a good warning of when to be careful, they do not reflect my BA experience...
Almost all the CC (SH, LH, LHR, LGW) I have flown with work with us (and I hope we work "with" them) to get the job done in the best (and easiest) way for all...
As you said, just need to identify and be wary of the 1%!
NoD
Whilst all these stories are a good warning of when to be careful, they do not reflect my BA experience...
Almost all the CC (SH, LH, LHR, LGW) I have flown with work with us (and I hope we work "with" them) to get the job done in the best (and easiest) way for all...
As you said, just need to identify and be wary of the 1%!
NoD
Guest
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The vast majority of cabin crew I have met have been efficient, polite and friendly. Unfortunately it is true that cabin crew and flight crew have different managers and different unions. As a result they have different agreements and indeed cc are far more militant about their agreements than are flt crew. Few pilots know the details of cc agreements and are therefore rather out of the loop when it comes to calculating discretion limits say, or the significance of a delay. Crew look to the CSD for anything significant. In their eyes the Capt is of little significance. He/She just flies the plane.
In addition to this CC are encouraged to speak up (CRM). This has lead to a situaion where any so minded CC will not think twice about questioning flt crew regards their action. Recent examples I know of include a FC suspended on return from US trip as CC reported them for apparently not been suffuciently proficient technically (she said the aircraft was on the runway too long during take off - honest!!) , a captain being questioned in front of passengers when he took a bottle of water without CSD's permission, and a capt being told he had no right to carry a pax on j/seat and if he did it again would be reported....these are 100% true examples.
F.C. have in their way responded to this and indeed not all are particularly polite to cc. Net result is a worsening of relations. Personally I think the whole thing needs reorganising - one management team would be a start.
Is it like this in other airlines?
In addition to this CC are encouraged to speak up (CRM). This has lead to a situaion where any so minded CC will not think twice about questioning flt crew regards their action. Recent examples I know of include a FC suspended on return from US trip as CC reported them for apparently not been suffuciently proficient technically (she said the aircraft was on the runway too long during take off - honest!!) , a captain being questioned in front of passengers when he took a bottle of water without CSD's permission, and a capt being told he had no right to carry a pax on j/seat and if he did it again would be reported....these are 100% true examples.
F.C. have in their way responded to this and indeed not all are particularly polite to cc. Net result is a worsening of relations. Personally I think the whole thing needs reorganising - one management team would be a start.
Is it like this in other airlines?
Guest
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OK, this is going to bruise a few egos but here goes.Its all down to a fairly new syndrome which affects approx 1% of the flight crew population usually those who are under the age of 30 and in their first couple of years in command - it's known as Captainitus within the cabin crew world.
Syptoms displayed include the following:1.the need to gatecrash and take over the cabin crew breifing to allocate working positions,inspect uniform standards and eye up potential totty, 2.the need to have control over the service ie the order of service, when drinks are to be offered etc. 3.inability to back crew up when dealing with problem passengers 4.failure to recognise where crm is appropriate ie during aircraft tech delays rather than on crew transport to chat up aforementioned totty and 5. the need to bollock at least one member of crew(this can include long suffering F/O or groundstaff)for no apparent reason in order to assert his authority!!
Other symtoms are too numerous to detail.There is no known cure,most seem to shake it off within a couple of years or on the realisation that the crew are on your side and not to be treated as brainless bimbos!!
Respect is earned not a God given right.
Joking aside, the best nightstops are the ones where we stay with you boys & girls.You can't beat a bit of crew bonding(if you know what i mean!!)
Syptoms displayed include the following:1.the need to gatecrash and take over the cabin crew breifing to allocate working positions,inspect uniform standards and eye up potential totty, 2.the need to have control over the service ie the order of service, when drinks are to be offered etc. 3.inability to back crew up when dealing with problem passengers 4.failure to recognise where crm is appropriate ie during aircraft tech delays rather than on crew transport to chat up aforementioned totty and 5. the need to bollock at least one member of crew(this can include long suffering F/O or groundstaff)for no apparent reason in order to assert his authority!!
Other symtoms are too numerous to detail.There is no known cure,most seem to shake it off within a couple of years or on the realisation that the crew are on your side and not to be treated as brainless bimbos!!
Respect is earned not a God given right.
Joking aside, the best nightstops are the ones where we stay with you boys & girls.You can't beat a bit of crew bonding(if you know what i mean!!)
Guest
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OVER THE LAST DECADE I HAVE NOTICED A SLOW DECLINE IN THE ESSENTIAL WORKING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CABIN CREW AND PILOTS AT BA.
RECENLY THIS HAS TAKEN A SHARP TURN FOR THE WORSE. HAVING EXPERIENCED MANY 'FRUSTRATING EVENTS' OVER THIS TIME I WONDER WHAT CAN BE DONE TO RECTIFY THIS VERY BAD TREND ON BOTH 'SIDES OF THE FLIGHT DECK DOOR'?
WE ALL KNOW OUR RESPOSIBILITIES AND JOBS SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
AFTER LOTS OF THOUGHT I MUST SAY THAT A HARDENING ON BOTH SIDES IS ONE OF THE MANY CAUSES AND A LACK OF SUPPORT BY PILOT MANAGERS IS ANOTHER. ALSO AN OVER WHELMING DESIRE IN CABIN SERVICES MANAGEMENT TO EMPIRE BUILD HAS HAD A DIRECT NEGATIVE IMPACT.
JUST LOOK AT ALL THE BA PILOT/CABIN CREW THREADS ON THIS SITE AND READ ALL THE FRUSTRATION TOO.
WILL IT REALLY TAKE AN ACCIDENT TO GET THINGS TO A COMMON SENSE APPROACH AGAIN OR CAN WE ALL GET ON AND WORK TOGETHER.
THERE CAN BE MANY MANAGERS ON BOARD BUT ONLY ONE CAPTAIN.....................YES?
WHAT DO YOU THINK CABIN CREW READING THIS ?
ARE YOU ANTI PILOTS AND IF SO WHY?
WHAT DO YOU THINK PILOTS READING THIS ?
ARE YOU ANTI CABIN CREW AND IF SO WHY ?
AS FOR ME I SAY THINGS MUST GET BETTER !
LETS ALL WORK TOGETHER AND ENJOY WORKING FOR THE NATIONAL FLAG CARRIER AGAIN.
OFF TO PUT MY TIN HAT ON AGAIN AND WAIT FOR THE 'INCOMING'.
RECENLY THIS HAS TAKEN A SHARP TURN FOR THE WORSE. HAVING EXPERIENCED MANY 'FRUSTRATING EVENTS' OVER THIS TIME I WONDER WHAT CAN BE DONE TO RECTIFY THIS VERY BAD TREND ON BOTH 'SIDES OF THE FLIGHT DECK DOOR'?
WE ALL KNOW OUR RESPOSIBILITIES AND JOBS SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
AFTER LOTS OF THOUGHT I MUST SAY THAT A HARDENING ON BOTH SIDES IS ONE OF THE MANY CAUSES AND A LACK OF SUPPORT BY PILOT MANAGERS IS ANOTHER. ALSO AN OVER WHELMING DESIRE IN CABIN SERVICES MANAGEMENT TO EMPIRE BUILD HAS HAD A DIRECT NEGATIVE IMPACT.
JUST LOOK AT ALL THE BA PILOT/CABIN CREW THREADS ON THIS SITE AND READ ALL THE FRUSTRATION TOO.
WILL IT REALLY TAKE AN ACCIDENT TO GET THINGS TO A COMMON SENSE APPROACH AGAIN OR CAN WE ALL GET ON AND WORK TOGETHER.
THERE CAN BE MANY MANAGERS ON BOARD BUT ONLY ONE CAPTAIN.....................YES?
WHAT DO YOU THINK CABIN CREW READING THIS ?
ARE YOU ANTI PILOTS AND IF SO WHY?
WHAT DO YOU THINK PILOTS READING THIS ?
ARE YOU ANTI CABIN CREW AND IF SO WHY ?
AS FOR ME I SAY THINGS MUST GET BETTER !
LETS ALL WORK TOGETHER AND ENJOY WORKING FOR THE NATIONAL FLAG CARRIER AGAIN.
OFF TO PUT MY TIN HAT ON AGAIN AND WAIT FOR THE 'INCOMING'.
Guest
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Thank God the pilots I work with do not have the same crap attitude towards us 'waiters/ess' at the back of the aircraft:
Whilst I agree that SOME cabin crew MAY have an attitude problem to the persons sitting in the pointed end of the A/C, do not tar us all with the same brush.
I am cabin crew, but also fly myself, and
personally do not take s**t off anyone, crew or pilots:
Also, remember that a great many of you <pilots> got where you are more by luck than judgement, (although don't jump down my throat, by no means all). As stated, I've been fortunate enough NOT to run into any of you with the above attitude, I still require 3 hands to count how many times I've been told the following, (by pilots):
1) I was luckier than you, because I was brought up in a much more affluent area
2) Daddy was rich - he paid/re-mortgaged the house, to sponsor me
3) I am more intelligent than you
(This one REALLY pi***s me off:- I personally hold 2 HNCs plus one degree, and of course, the '0' & 'A' levels that preceed them)
Just because I'm a 'waiter/ess' doesn't mean I haven't done other things - none of you know why ANY of us are doing this job, after all.
Anyway, pilots, to conclude, if any of you requested that I put on the 'crutchpiece' in the jumpseat, (remember you don't know my gender), I would happily comply. However, if any perversity was attached to such a request, you would bloody well know about it immediately - straight from the horses mouth. Who needs to report things? there are other methods....
Happy flying all...
WCF
Whilst I agree that SOME cabin crew MAY have an attitude problem to the persons sitting in the pointed end of the A/C, do not tar us all with the same brush.
I am cabin crew, but also fly myself, and
personally do not take s**t off anyone, crew or pilots:
Also, remember that a great many of you <pilots> got where you are more by luck than judgement, (although don't jump down my throat, by no means all). As stated, I've been fortunate enough NOT to run into any of you with the above attitude, I still require 3 hands to count how many times I've been told the following, (by pilots):
1) I was luckier than you, because I was brought up in a much more affluent area
2) Daddy was rich - he paid/re-mortgaged the house, to sponsor me
3) I am more intelligent than you
(This one REALLY pi***s me off:- I personally hold 2 HNCs plus one degree, and of course, the '0' & 'A' levels that preceed them)
Just because I'm a 'waiter/ess' doesn't mean I haven't done other things - none of you know why ANY of us are doing this job, after all.
Anyway, pilots, to conclude, if any of you requested that I put on the 'crutchpiece' in the jumpseat, (remember you don't know my gender), I would happily comply. However, if any perversity was attached to such a request, you would bloody well know about it immediately - straight from the horses mouth. Who needs to report things? there are other methods....
Happy flying all...
WCF
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well I hope I find myself flying with you tomorrow.
If you tell me when you've got a problem, I'll know, we'll sort it out, probably it won't happen again.
Nice attitude. Who needs to tell teacher anyway ?
Although as lots of people have said, a little courtesy goes a long way. Who knows what personal problems that person might be distracted by today ?
[This message has been edited by everybody (edited 28 April 2001).]
If you tell me when you've got a problem, I'll know, we'll sort it out, probably it won't happen again.
Nice attitude. Who needs to tell teacher anyway ?
Although as lots of people have said, a little courtesy goes a long way. Who knows what personal problems that person might be distracted by today ?
[This message has been edited by everybody (edited 28 April 2001).]
Guest
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Big Jugs.
Well, it's an interesting point. Someone new to command is going to take a while to settle in. Decisions have to be made and he/she won't always make the right ones but at the end of the day it's the Captain that will bear the responsibility, not you.
As regards some of your points. There may be a reason that the Captain in question suggested the order of service. Perhaps he has knowledge of something you don't; say forecast turbulence at a particular stage of the flight. Your remarks regards "totty" don't warrant response.
As for the "Respect is earned...." blah. Don't you think they have earned a measure of respect. The four stripes on his/her arm didn't come free in a cornflakes packet. They were achieved after years of experience, checks & assessment in a cockpit. It certainly took more than 16 days of self congratulation at braincrank!
At the beginning of the flight, we DO NOT all start at an equal level of rank and status and then "earn respect" as the flight progresses. There is a long established chain of command, the links of which seem to be weakening. Of course there are wrong and right ways of exercising that authority just as there different ways of interacting with our colleagues. I think extremely few people, on either side of the flight deck door intentionally go out to p!ss each other off.
One question. Why oh why do cabin crew refer to pilots as "The Flight Deck". It's a place for Bobs sake. Perhaps we should refer to you as "The Passenger Cabin"
Well, it's an interesting point. Someone new to command is going to take a while to settle in. Decisions have to be made and he/she won't always make the right ones but at the end of the day it's the Captain that will bear the responsibility, not you.
As regards some of your points. There may be a reason that the Captain in question suggested the order of service. Perhaps he has knowledge of something you don't; say forecast turbulence at a particular stage of the flight. Your remarks regards "totty" don't warrant response.
As for the "Respect is earned...." blah. Don't you think they have earned a measure of respect. The four stripes on his/her arm didn't come free in a cornflakes packet. They were achieved after years of experience, checks & assessment in a cockpit. It certainly took more than 16 days of self congratulation at braincrank!
At the beginning of the flight, we DO NOT all start at an equal level of rank and status and then "earn respect" as the flight progresses. There is a long established chain of command, the links of which seem to be weakening. Of course there are wrong and right ways of exercising that authority just as there different ways of interacting with our colleagues. I think extremely few people, on either side of the flight deck door intentionally go out to p!ss each other off.
One question. Why oh why do cabin crew refer to pilots as "The Flight Deck". It's a place for Bobs sake. Perhaps we should refer to you as "The Passenger Cabin"
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just read this whole thread in 1 go. What a thoroughly depressing read it is! 
Last leg, from Oman back to Europe on december 30th, the captain of the flight decided that my hair was too short and off-loaded me there and then. No suitcase, no nothing.
We'd been on the road together for 7 days, and the hair was the same as when we left home base.
Just an example to show that idiots are occasionally to be found on both sides of the cockpit door.
After 20 years of flying I could give quite a few others, but as they are rare exeptions rather than the norm, why bother?
Reading the feelings expresed here I will look at our pilots differently when getting back to work tomorrow!
With a lot more appreciation for the respect they show for what we do in the back, the total absence of derogatory terminology, the faith they show in our ability to get our job done, the way they support us when the sh!t hits the fan and the way the involve us in those decisions where our input is of use.
Since becoming a pprune addict it has become more and more apparent to me the way of life in our company is apparently pretty unusual. This thread has re-confirmed my belief that our blokes&gals arn't half bad and that I'm to be profoundly grateful for the by and large exellent way in which we mange to co-operate on the a/c, and have a very good time together off it!
Gawd I need cheering up after reading this thread!
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Singularly Simple Person........
Last leg, from Oman back to Europe on december 30th, the captain of the flight decided that my hair was too short and off-loaded me there and then. No suitcase, no nothing.
We'd been on the road together for 7 days, and the hair was the same as when we left home base.
Just an example to show that idiots are occasionally to be found on both sides of the cockpit door.
After 20 years of flying I could give quite a few others, but as they are rare exeptions rather than the norm, why bother?
Reading the feelings expresed here I will look at our pilots differently when getting back to work tomorrow!
With a lot more appreciation for the respect they show for what we do in the back, the total absence of derogatory terminology, the faith they show in our ability to get our job done, the way they support us when the sh!t hits the fan and the way the involve us in those decisions where our input is of use.
Since becoming a pprune addict it has become more and more apparent to me the way of life in our company is apparently pretty unusual. This thread has re-confirmed my belief that our blokes&gals arn't half bad and that I'm to be profoundly grateful for the by and large exellent way in which we mange to co-operate on the a/c, and have a very good time together off it!
Gawd I need cheering up after reading this thread!
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Singularly Simple Person........
Guest
Posts: n/a
Three pages....and still animosity. Simple really, for the "front end guys", leave the back end ALONE to do their job, ie: problem solved. And as for new Captains who just HAVE to interfere, put a cork in it. You make it much more difficult for the rest of us.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Odd Reddington tried to erode the respect and authority of the cockpit crew at Cathay and he will do exactly the same at BA. Believe me, the thought of a pilot being upgraded would cause him sleepless nights.
He loves the cabin crew tho'. Personal experience of a lot of them out in the fragrant harbour.
He loves the cabin crew tho'. Personal experience of a lot of them out in the fragrant harbour.
