Ryanair Erc Members Resign Please!
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Ryanair Erc Members Resign Please!
Here is a call for pilot members of Ryanairs ERC to do the honourable thing and resign. For background Ryanair has always paid lip service to employer/employee relations. It set up a forum called the ERC years ago in an effort to maintain a pretense of industrial relations. The ERC was a one way set up, a convient way of telling us what changes were required.
Then came the situation in Dublin. In its preliminary findings the labour court agreed that the ERC was not a worthwhile forum. Hence there has been a desperate scramble by management to manafacture activity from the the ERC and made it look like the pilots have a body in which to negotiate with management. However Ryanairs idea of a pilot negotiating body is one where they pick who is on it and they set the agenda. Pilots have no say on who represents them or any way of agreeing or disagreeing with decisions that are made.
I am calling on the pilot members of the STN ERC to resign and put yourself forward for election. You do not represent me. I resent the fact that you make decisions supposedly on my behalf even though I have no say. You have no mandate.
I am asking all other STN pilots to put pressure on these people to resign. I would also ask that we campain for simple democracy. I think it right that the pilots not management choose who represents them. LET US HAVE A VOTE!!
This may sound like a case of industrial relations from the turn of the centuary but this is the reality of modern day ryanair.
Then came the situation in Dublin. In its preliminary findings the labour court agreed that the ERC was not a worthwhile forum. Hence there has been a desperate scramble by management to manafacture activity from the the ERC and made it look like the pilots have a body in which to negotiate with management. However Ryanairs idea of a pilot negotiating body is one where they pick who is on it and they set the agenda. Pilots have no say on who represents them or any way of agreeing or disagreeing with decisions that are made.
I am calling on the pilot members of the STN ERC to resign and put yourself forward for election. You do not represent me. I resent the fact that you make decisions supposedly on my behalf even though I have no say. You have no mandate.
I am asking all other STN pilots to put pressure on these people to resign. I would also ask that we campain for simple democracy. I think it right that the pilots not management choose who represents them. LET US HAVE A VOTE!!
This may sound like a case of industrial relations from the turn of the centuary but this is the reality of modern day ryanair.
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Long live Pprune & that ever popular subject of FR bashing! Just when you think they cant sink any lower as the dirty washing keeps tumbling out FR raise the Bar again and continue to show they're semmingly never ending disgraceful treatment of staff,whom they nearly treat as bad as their customers.
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Just to clarify. Ryanair appear to have appointed, cajoled, persuaded and otherwise "encouraged" pilot "representatives" at every base - except Dublin - to "engage" and "negotiate" with local management. (According to the REPA site one base even has a representative who is not based there!).
Interestingly, all these independent "negotiations" seem to have ended up with in and around the same package. This is truly amazing and shows that co-incidence is alive and well in Ryanair.
The Stansted package is even written to make it clear that there were several meetings and the entire sham exercise is clearly intended to have the mark of acceptability as something "directly negotiated by local pilot representatives".
The Dublin guys may well have got the correct end of the stick on this particular game. After all, nobody is going to argue about the outcome in other bases, are they? As a Ryanair look-alike said on the other Ryanair thread:
I think we get the message (which is what they want). Cue lots of people to talk about how generous Ryanair has been to give back the 3% they took last year and what a wonderful airline it is, full of nice, kind, cuddly management figures ever concerned about one's welfare.
Will this nonsense ever end??!!
Interestingly, all these independent "negotiations" seem to have ended up with in and around the same package. This is truly amazing and shows that co-incidence is alive and well in Ryanair.
The Stansted package is even written to make it clear that there were several meetings and the entire sham exercise is clearly intended to have the mark of acceptability as something "directly negotiated by local pilot representatives".
The Dublin guys may well have got the correct end of the stick on this particular game. After all, nobody is going to argue about the outcome in other bases, are they? As a Ryanair look-alike said on the other Ryanair thread:
"Cause grief - and we'll do everything we can to make life so unbearable, you'll leave"
Will this nonsense ever end??!!
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Well, on the plus side, I flew Ryanair as a px last week, Stanstead - Bergerac, returning three days later. Faultless!! Band new 737/800, leg room just about OK for my 6'2" frame for a short flight. Took off on time, arrived 20 minutes early, both ways.
Baggage off really quickly both ends (these quick turnarounds really speed such things up), the crew were effecient and friendly (which is more than can be said for the arrogant and miserable French "security" staff at bergerac).
Ryanair may have internal problems, but based on what I saw as a mere punter, their future seems assured.
Oh yes, and their fares were less than half the cost of the Flybe routes from both Birmingham and Southampton on the same dates......both of which would have been more convenient for me.
Baggage off really quickly both ends (these quick turnarounds really speed such things up), the crew were effecient and friendly (which is more than can be said for the arrogant and miserable French "security" staff at bergerac).
Ryanair may have internal problems, but based on what I saw as a mere punter, their future seems assured.
Oh yes, and their fares were less than half the cost of the Flybe routes from both Birmingham and Southampton on the same dates......both of which would have been more convenient for me.
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Chequeredflag
Question: What has having had an nice flight got to do with pilots being able to to elect their own representatives? I can not see the link but I am only a driver of airframes. If you wish to praise Ryan air for there service start a new thread.
Question: What has having had an nice flight got to do with pilots being able to to elect their own representatives? I can not see the link but I am only a driver of airframes. If you wish to praise Ryan air for there service start a new thread.
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I was merely responding to the post which complained that all PPruners could do was stick the knife in to Ryanair. I fly with many airlines, some good, some bad, and as far as I'm concerned, if FR treat their staff, as well as they did their passengers on those two particular days, then there doesn't seem to be much to complain about!!!
Frankly, I don't give a toss if Ryanair or any other airline goes to the wall, there's always plenty more.....
However, this is obviously none of my business, so I'll butt out, and wait for the rude replies.....
Frankly, I don't give a toss if Ryanair or any other airline goes to the wall, there's always plenty more.....
However, this is obviously none of my business, so I'll butt out, and wait for the rude replies.....
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chequeredflag. As someone recently attracted to the "Ryanair controversies" by a newspaper article that referred to this site I can advise you that pilots are not the only people who have problems with Ryanair. In fact there are apparently lots of sites, many closed down following legal threats by Ryanair, that try to address various different types of "Ryanair problem". Since you are a passenger why don't you have a look at one of the passenger sites - makes for interesting reading - Site
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Boy,
Interesting reading indeed, but they are probably only doing what any other organisation would do to protect their interests.
It would nevertheless be very frustrating to be unable to register any complaint, but I guess that's one downside of their cheap fares?
I've only flown Ryanair three times, and in fairness, all trips have been very good, albeit the first one being on a classic 737 out of the ark!!
Neverthless, judging by the massive queues at ALL of their check-in desks at Stansted last week, they do have many satisfied customers as well! I am not a fan of any one particuler airline over another, so I don't have any axe to grind - just speaking as I find.
Interesting reading indeed, but they are probably only doing what any other organisation would do to protect their interests.
It would nevertheless be very frustrating to be unable to register any complaint, but I guess that's one downside of their cheap fares?
I've only flown Ryanair three times, and in fairness, all trips have been very good, albeit the first one being on a classic 737 out of the ark!!
Neverthless, judging by the massive queues at ALL of their check-in desks at Stansted last week, they do have many satisfied customers as well! I am not a fan of any one particuler airline over another, so I don't have any axe to grind - just speaking as I find.
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I have to say I agree with Chequeredflag.
I have flown with RYR dozens of times and the whole experience is overwhelmingly positive.
In addition my observation of the crews is that they are more often than not efficient and friendly which is not my experience with other airlines.
Professionally I come across RYR daily and never found a problem.
Just my observations of how they come across outside the complaints department here.
I have flown with RYR dozens of times and the whole experience is overwhelmingly positive.
In addition my observation of the crews is that they are more often than not efficient and friendly which is not my experience with other airlines.
Professionally I come across RYR daily and never found a problem.
Just my observations of how they come across outside the complaints department here.
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Back to the thread in hand.......
this is one of the most valid comments I have read on Pprune. Anyone who knows the details of what has happened must agree with everything said in the original post. Anyone who thinks it is wrong is either politically dysfunctional or FR management (or both!!).
the ERC reps have made a gross error in judgement by taking on the role of representing staff, most of whom were not even aware they were being 'represented'. This is complete nonsense. The mistake was made....recognise it and resign.
The staff change regularly at bases due to base changes and new starters. Without annual elections of representatives, there is only the pretence of representation. That is what this whole thing was...pretending representation. I for one found out about it on pprune and repa (in that order!!). Then I saw the notice in the crew room. Until that point i was only aware of one 'representative' who has been there for years and that person does NOT have my permission to go to management and negotiate a pay deal for me (that is just a personal opinion of the person...nice guy but not up to FR management)....It is my right to elect my rep. What a joke!!!
beernice....Thanks for saying what everyone I have ever met in FR is now thinking.
this is one of the most valid comments I have read on Pprune. Anyone who knows the details of what has happened must agree with everything said in the original post. Anyone who thinks it is wrong is either politically dysfunctional or FR management (or both!!).
the ERC reps have made a gross error in judgement by taking on the role of representing staff, most of whom were not even aware they were being 'represented'. This is complete nonsense. The mistake was made....recognise it and resign.
The staff change regularly at bases due to base changes and new starters. Without annual elections of representatives, there is only the pretence of representation. That is what this whole thing was...pretending representation. I for one found out about it on pprune and repa (in that order!!). Then I saw the notice in the crew room. Until that point i was only aware of one 'representative' who has been there for years and that person does NOT have my permission to go to management and negotiate a pay deal for me (that is just a personal opinion of the person...nice guy but not up to FR management)....It is my right to elect my rep. What a joke!!!
beernice....Thanks for saying what everyone I have ever met in FR is now thinking.
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A little insight into ERC
1: You tell the erc rep what problems or questions you have about the day to day running of the company( remember this is YOUR forum to LET the management know what the opinion is from the staff)
2: ERC rep submits said questions or queries to management
3: One to two weeks later ERC reps have a meeting where management tell rep's the answer's to the questions or queries.
4: Thats it no talk no involvement just what's decided plus also how great ryanair is and how lucky we are to be here
1: You tell the erc rep what problems or questions you have about the day to day running of the company( remember this is YOUR forum to LET the management know what the opinion is from the staff)
2: ERC rep submits said questions or queries to management
3: One to two weeks later ERC reps have a meeting where management tell rep's the answer's to the questions or queries.
4: Thats it no talk no involvement just what's decided plus also how great ryanair is and how lucky we are to be here
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To "chequered flag" et al.
You are all victims of the Ryanair propaganda machine.
To expect you to even remotely grasp the issues at hand would be fantasy.
Go back to sleep and let the people directly involved take care of it.
Nighty night.
You are all victims of the Ryanair propaganda machine.
To expect you to even remotely grasp the issues at hand would be fantasy.
Go back to sleep and let the people directly involved take care of it.
Nighty night.
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Maxalt - I think YOU are the one who needs to take a good look at the Facts. If we park the staff issues to one side, it is a fact that FR has a huge following (it carrys 2.5 million pax a month), it has one of the newest fleets in the business fact. I agree with much of what has been said above about the ERC but at the end of the day it is a very successful company which remains so during very difficult times. You can knock the way it treats its staff but you can't knock its appeal to the flying public.
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As someone who knows one of our so-called reps can I put into perspective what happened as I have asked all the same questions.
There is only one ERC rep and he was democratically voted in by the pilots. That actually happened. Some guys arent aware because they werent in the company at the time.
He was informed by the company that despite an agreement in place that STN would have to justify its 3% pay rise this year. In any meeting it would have him against three managers and we all know who they would be.
The poor guy asked for help and the other 2 pilots came forward. Fair play to them for sticking their heads above the parapet. At least it was 3 vs 3.
These other two pilots have never claimed to be voted in, or that they represent anyone or anything. They were assisting our ERC rep. Basically they have nothing to resign from.
They assisted your ERC rep get what was rightfully yours a 3% pay rise and a few other bits.
This was not a new pay deal as some think.
Personally I think they did all right. Lets face nobody else wants to do it. Or if they do they are not telling anyone.
There is only one ERC rep and he was democratically voted in by the pilots. That actually happened. Some guys arent aware because they werent in the company at the time.
He was informed by the company that despite an agreement in place that STN would have to justify its 3% pay rise this year. In any meeting it would have him against three managers and we all know who they would be.
The poor guy asked for help and the other 2 pilots came forward. Fair play to them for sticking their heads above the parapet. At least it was 3 vs 3.
These other two pilots have never claimed to be voted in, or that they represent anyone or anything. They were assisting our ERC rep. Basically they have nothing to resign from.
They assisted your ERC rep get what was rightfully yours a 3% pay rise and a few other bits.
This was not a new pay deal as some think.
Personally I think they did all right. Lets face nobody else wants to do it. Or if they do they are not telling anyone.
Just a numbered other
You can knock the way it treats its staff but you can't knock its appeal to the flying public.
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Say Mach Number - no current member of any so-called ERC has been appointed in accordance with the rules (such as they are). What your chum has chosen to forget is that if he was voted in some time ago, he no longer meets Ryanair's own requirements for ERC membership (does he know the rules, indeed does he care?).
Here is a direct question: Did your chum go and ask others to help entirely on his own initiative or was he "encouraged" to do so by Ryanair, and was he pointed in "the right direction"?
Put another way, this situation stinks and these people are engaging in a form of self-serving collaboration designed to undermine their colleagues.
If you believe that the 3% was not for the granting before the "negitiations" ever started you need to start thinking a bit. Presumably you are neither aware that the 3% "settlement figure" was outlined on REPA when the sham was forecast some time ago.
Don't take us all for fools. Your chum serves his own self-determined purposes, not those of the pilots on whose behalf HE has chosen to speak. If your chum was a true democrat he would understand exactly what it is that he has done to his colleagues.
Here is a direct question: Did your chum go and ask others to help entirely on his own initiative or was he "encouraged" to do so by Ryanair, and was he pointed in "the right direction"?
Put another way, this situation stinks and these people are engaging in a form of self-serving collaboration designed to undermine their colleagues.
If you believe that the 3% was not for the granting before the "negitiations" ever started you need to start thinking a bit. Presumably you are neither aware that the 3% "settlement figure" was outlined on REPA when the sham was forecast some time ago.
Don't take us all for fools. Your chum serves his own self-determined purposes, not those of the pilots on whose behalf HE has chosen to speak. If your chum was a true democrat he would understand exactly what it is that he has done to his colleagues.
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Point taken - but knowing this guy as i do i am certain there was no ill intent. He thought he was doing what he could to get everyone and himself the deserved pay rise.
Yes the ERC is a one year position but the rep has not been replaced because I think there been noone coming forward to take over.
Hopefully there will be a meeting soon and we can all say our piece.
Yes the ERC is a one year position but the rep has not been replaced because I think there been noone coming forward to take over.
Hopefully there will be a meeting soon and we can all say our piece.
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Arkroyal,
Are you saying that when you are purchasing ANYTHING for your home/family, you do not take account of the price/value for money? To my mind, the two are inextricably linked. I certainly can't afford to ignore such matters, and as long as I am satisfied that I'm getting a good 'bang for my buck', then I'm happy with it.
It does seem to me, as an outsider looking in that there is a great deal of unrest within the pilot community of many (most?) airlines, which would indicate that all is not well within the managment structure (or is it because you are a militant bunch!?). I have a few friends who fly commercially (BMI, BA, and BMIBaby), and I'm just grateful you are all professional enough for it not to affect the "day job"
Nevertheless, I would have thought that my positive observations, as one of the many that keep you in business would have been welcomed by Ryanair personnel at least, not spat at.
With that I'll leave you to your many problems, and wish you the best of luck with your endeavours.
Are you saying that when you are purchasing ANYTHING for your home/family, you do not take account of the price/value for money? To my mind, the two are inextricably linked. I certainly can't afford to ignore such matters, and as long as I am satisfied that I'm getting a good 'bang for my buck', then I'm happy with it.
It does seem to me, as an outsider looking in that there is a great deal of unrest within the pilot community of many (most?) airlines, which would indicate that all is not well within the managment structure (or is it because you are a militant bunch!?). I have a few friends who fly commercially (BMI, BA, and BMIBaby), and I'm just grateful you are all professional enough for it not to affect the "day job"
Nevertheless, I would have thought that my positive observations, as one of the many that keep you in business would have been welcomed by Ryanair personnel at least, not spat at.
With that I'll leave you to your many problems, and wish you the best of luck with your endeavours.
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Say Mac Number.......thanks for clearing up some of the details. But you are still missing the big picture.
You said the rep negotiated what was 'rightfully ours'. Well, the management removed the 3%. Getting it back took negotiation. By definition negotiation involves compromise.....somebody made a compromise on my behalf without discussing it with me first. There are strings attached to this deal which I don't agree with. I am annoyed because I found out about the talks after they occured.
One of the biggest compromises these guys have made is to shaft their colleagues in Ireland. The phrase used in my last post was 'politically dysfunctioal'. That is what I think of these reps. Lets get straight to the point. The company is currently being nailed in the courts in Ireland for not having a functioning employee representitive body. The company is running around europe trying to negotiate with employees to try prove the courts wrong. Corridor messages are being sent 'ERC reps' as to what they can expect to achieve during these negotiations. Which means a child could go in and negotiate with apparent success. The management who are experienced negotiators are just playing with the reps like a cat pushes a stunned mouse around before it makes the fatal bite. This information is available to everyone. Educate yourselves....especially if you want to sit in front of management and purport to represent the workforce!!!!!
Why don't these guys check with BALPA and IALPA (or even REPA) as to what the consequences of their actions are. I chose to be a member of REPA and BALPA. I did not choose the current ERC rep.
I have been here a number of years and I'm sure your right 'say mach number', he was probably democratically elected before my time. But the demographics have changed. The -200 fleet is gone from stansted. The number of -800's has trebled. Assuming he got 75% of the then staff to vote for him, it would be realistic to estimate that less than 25% of the current staff voted for him, and maybe as low as 0%!!!!....As I say, I chose BALPA/REPA (if it was a good or bad decision has yet to be proven), but I did not choose the current ERC rep and I am one of the longer serving STN staff. Annual (or at least bi-annual) elections......and it should be a "panel'....not one person. What a joke....no concept pf democracy here at all.
Guys and gals, you have to take a step back and look at the concept of what is going on. The detail is clouding your perception on things.
I hate contributing to these forums....but this issue really has boiled my blood.
You said the rep negotiated what was 'rightfully ours'. Well, the management removed the 3%. Getting it back took negotiation. By definition negotiation involves compromise.....somebody made a compromise on my behalf without discussing it with me first. There are strings attached to this deal which I don't agree with. I am annoyed because I found out about the talks after they occured.
One of the biggest compromises these guys have made is to shaft their colleagues in Ireland. The phrase used in my last post was 'politically dysfunctioal'. That is what I think of these reps. Lets get straight to the point. The company is currently being nailed in the courts in Ireland for not having a functioning employee representitive body. The company is running around europe trying to negotiate with employees to try prove the courts wrong. Corridor messages are being sent 'ERC reps' as to what they can expect to achieve during these negotiations. Which means a child could go in and negotiate with apparent success. The management who are experienced negotiators are just playing with the reps like a cat pushes a stunned mouse around before it makes the fatal bite. This information is available to everyone. Educate yourselves....especially if you want to sit in front of management and purport to represent the workforce!!!!!
Why don't these guys check with BALPA and IALPA (or even REPA) as to what the consequences of their actions are. I chose to be a member of REPA and BALPA. I did not choose the current ERC rep.
I have been here a number of years and I'm sure your right 'say mach number', he was probably democratically elected before my time. But the demographics have changed. The -200 fleet is gone from stansted. The number of -800's has trebled. Assuming he got 75% of the then staff to vote for him, it would be realistic to estimate that less than 25% of the current staff voted for him, and maybe as low as 0%!!!!....As I say, I chose BALPA/REPA (if it was a good or bad decision has yet to be proven), but I did not choose the current ERC rep and I am one of the longer serving STN staff. Annual (or at least bi-annual) elections......and it should be a "panel'....not one person. What a joke....no concept pf democracy here at all.
Guys and gals, you have to take a step back and look at the concept of what is going on. The detail is clouding your perception on things.
I hate contributing to these forums....but this issue really has boiled my blood.
Just a numbered other
Sorry, chequered, I did not mean to 'spit' at you.
My point was, that it seems to us in the industry (and I'm not FR) that our Ts and Cs are being slashed to allow you, the public, to travel at totally unrealistic fares. It is, perhaps, asking too much for you to look further than the price.
Do you buy battery, or free range? Do you actively support sweat shops?
My point was, that it seems to us in the industry (and I'm not FR) that our Ts and Cs are being slashed to allow you, the public, to travel at totally unrealistic fares. It is, perhaps, asking too much for you to look further than the price.
as long as I am satisfied that I'm getting a good 'bang for my buck', then I'm happy with it.