China Airlines taxi-way take-off!
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Hobie,. ."Dear God ..... please tell me this is a joke ..... it's impossible that ATC could allow this to happen?"
Its not just their fault, they would have a part to play in this, however what sort of moron would take off on a taxiway????? Almost excusable for a student pilot, but not the crew of a heavy, surely???
Its not just their fault, they would have a part to play in this, however what sort of moron would take off on a taxiway????? Almost excusable for a student pilot, but not the crew of a heavy, surely???
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pontius pilot ..... I understand what you are saying and having now seen the runway diagram in shore guys post above I wonder if the Tower allowed CAL to take a rolling take off rather than "line up and wait" ...... (and with that the 340 bombed off down the taxi way before anyone could spot what he was doing and try and stop him) .....
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God knows there has been alot of runway incursions in aviation, but this is the first time that I have ever heard of a crew taking off on a lighted taxiway at night with good visibility, and on the wrong cardinal heading. I can see how maybe one pilot could briefly mistake a taxi way for a runway but then reorient, or at least the other pilot would interject. The fact that the aircraft was staffed with 3 pilots and none of them caught the error is an example of either extreme incompetence or, more likely, a complete breakdown in CRM. It has been well documented in the past about autocratic leadership in Chinese cockpits and this may be yet another example.. .Will we ever learn?
Sounds familiar..... .Little story from my own storybook:. .In 1991 I boarded an Tupolev 154M(Balkan-Air) to get from Nairobi to Sofia.. .Got the last seat on the right side of the A/C.. .Next to an emergency exit an with a good view of the engine.. .Clearly on the taxi-way (blue lights,just started my PPl training)the engines spooled up and we started to accellerate.. .I guess we where close to lift-off speed when the engines where put in thrust reverse and heavy braking followed.We made another turn and this time the lights where white.Relief....NOT.. .This time the engines only spooled up to a certain rpm,but not as high as previously on the taxiway.The sound was just all different.. .After quite a while of lights...lights...lights...lights..lights I expected them to abort T/O.Told my neighbour:something's wrong and I'm the 1st one outta here...as I reached for the handles on the exit.The plane rotated....hardly climbed...got a close-up look of the Nairobi citylights..... .Atfer a couple of minutes (still low rpm) we turned what felt like 180 deg.I prayed we where returning to the airport.Suddenly the engine accelerated to what sounded normal and we turned again,climbed out and headed to Sofia in the darkness of the night.I was so scared I went to sleep and didn't wake up till touch-down.Were supposed to take the same plane on to Brussels after refuelling.. .We were told the plane was found to be "broken" as they put it.Had to wait for a replacement which turned out to be a 737.. .Anyway...it happens...
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The tower tapes should reveal whether there was any communications misunderstanding, given possible language difficulties. ("Cleared takeoff from Kilo" ?!). . .Which prompts the question - how and why did this become public knowledge ? I doubt a reporter from KINY just happened to be hanging around ANC at 0300. Seems unprofessional for the tower crew to have notified the press. Flight crew and pax didn't know anything was amiss. So whodunnit ?
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A previous post on this topic referrred to the CVR being not usable because of the duration of the flight (report from newspaper - yes,I know how inacurate the general press is on aviation matters). Does anyone know:
(1) whether this 340 had a digital CVR, and what are it's characteristics
(2) I have heard of enhancements of tape loops to retrieve previous data (back 5-6-7 loops as I recall). Anyone have info on this capability?
(1) whether this 340 had a digital CVR, and what are it's characteristics
(2) I have heard of enhancements of tape loops to retrieve previous data (back 5-6-7 loops as I recall). Anyone have info on this capability?
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Imagine this coming out of the fog at you!!!!
NTSB Identification: DCA84AA013A. The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 23846.
Scheduled 14 CFRPart 129 operation of Foreign KOREAN AIR LINES. .Accident occurred Friday, December 23, 1983 at ANCHORAGE, AK. .Aircraft:MCDONNELL-DOUGLAS DC-10-30CF, registration: H7339. .Injuries: 3 Serious, 3 Minor, 6 Uninjured.
A PIPER PA-31, N35206, (SOUTH CENTRAL AIR FLT 59) WAS CLEARED TO TAXI TO RWY 6L. THE WX AT THAT TIME WAS FOGGY WITH ABOUT 1/8 MI VISIBILITY, BUT THE RVR WAS IMPROVING & THE ARPT WAS EXPECTED SOON TO BE ACCEPTABLE FOR TAKEOFFS. THE PA-31 CREW TAXIED & WAITED IN THE HOLDING AREA FOR THE VISIBILITY TO IMPROVE. A DOUGLAS DC-10, H7339, KOREAN AIR LINES FLT 084, WAS CLEARED TO RWY 32. HOWEVER, WHILE TAXIING IN THE FOG, THE DC-10 CREW INADVERTENTLY TAXIED TO RWY 6L/24R. TOWER PSNL WERE UNABLE TO SEE THE ACFT IN THE FOG & WERE UNAWARE OF THE DC-10'S POSITION. THE DC-10 WAS CLEARED TO TAKE-OFF ON RWY 32 & THE PA-31 WAS CLEARED TO HOLD ON RWY 6L. THE DC-10 CREW TAXIED ON RWY 24R & BEGAN TAKING OFF TOWARD THE PA-31 WITH 2400 FT OF RWY REMAINING. ITS ESTIMATED TAKEOFF DISTANCE WAS 8150 FT. SUBSEQUENTLY, THE DC-10 COLLIDED WITH THE PA-31, CONTINUED OFF THE RWY & HIT STANCHION LIGHTS, SMALL TREES & ROUGH TERRAIN. AN INVESTIGATION REVEALED THE DC-10 PLT DID NOT CONFIRM HIS POSITION BY USING HIS COMPASS & THAT THERE WAS A LACK OF LEGIBLE TWY & RWY SIGNS.
. .The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows.
VISUAL/AURAL PERCEPTION..PILOT IN COMMAND. .WRONG RUNWAY..INADVERTENT USE..PILOT IN COMMAND
Contributing Factors
OBJECT..APPROACH LIGHT/NAVAID. .TERRAIN CONDITION..HIGH VEGETATION. .WEATHER CONDITION..FOG. .BECAME LOST/DISORIENTED..INADVERTENT..PILOT IN COMMAND. .TERRAIN CONDITION..ROUGH/UNEVEN. .AIRPORT FACILITIES,TAXIWAY MARKING..INADEQUATE. .AIRPORT FACILITIES,RUNWAY MARKING..INADEQUATE. .OBJECT..AIRCRAFT PARKED/STANDING
NTSB Identification: DCA84AA013A. The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 23846.
Scheduled 14 CFRPart 129 operation of Foreign KOREAN AIR LINES. .Accident occurred Friday, December 23, 1983 at ANCHORAGE, AK. .Aircraft:MCDONNELL-DOUGLAS DC-10-30CF, registration: H7339. .Injuries: 3 Serious, 3 Minor, 6 Uninjured.
A PIPER PA-31, N35206, (SOUTH CENTRAL AIR FLT 59) WAS CLEARED TO TAXI TO RWY 6L. THE WX AT THAT TIME WAS FOGGY WITH ABOUT 1/8 MI VISIBILITY, BUT THE RVR WAS IMPROVING & THE ARPT WAS EXPECTED SOON TO BE ACCEPTABLE FOR TAKEOFFS. THE PA-31 CREW TAXIED & WAITED IN THE HOLDING AREA FOR THE VISIBILITY TO IMPROVE. A DOUGLAS DC-10, H7339, KOREAN AIR LINES FLT 084, WAS CLEARED TO RWY 32. HOWEVER, WHILE TAXIING IN THE FOG, THE DC-10 CREW INADVERTENTLY TAXIED TO RWY 6L/24R. TOWER PSNL WERE UNABLE TO SEE THE ACFT IN THE FOG & WERE UNAWARE OF THE DC-10'S POSITION. THE DC-10 WAS CLEARED TO TAKE-OFF ON RWY 32 & THE PA-31 WAS CLEARED TO HOLD ON RWY 6L. THE DC-10 CREW TAXIED ON RWY 24R & BEGAN TAKING OFF TOWARD THE PA-31 WITH 2400 FT OF RWY REMAINING. ITS ESTIMATED TAKEOFF DISTANCE WAS 8150 FT. SUBSEQUENTLY, THE DC-10 COLLIDED WITH THE PA-31, CONTINUED OFF THE RWY & HIT STANCHION LIGHTS, SMALL TREES & ROUGH TERRAIN. AN INVESTIGATION REVEALED THE DC-10 PLT DID NOT CONFIRM HIS POSITION BY USING HIS COMPASS & THAT THERE WAS A LACK OF LEGIBLE TWY & RWY SIGNS.
. .The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows.
VISUAL/AURAL PERCEPTION..PILOT IN COMMAND. .WRONG RUNWAY..INADVERTENT USE..PILOT IN COMMAND
Contributing Factors
OBJECT..APPROACH LIGHT/NAVAID. .TERRAIN CONDITION..HIGH VEGETATION. .WEATHER CONDITION..FOG. .BECAME LOST/DISORIENTED..INADVERTENT..PILOT IN COMMAND. .TERRAIN CONDITION..ROUGH/UNEVEN. .AIRPORT FACILITIES,TAXIWAY MARKING..INADEQUATE. .AIRPORT FACILITIES,RUNWAY MARKING..INADEQUATE. .OBJECT..AIRCRAFT PARKED/STANDING
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Shore Guy,
I believe that the NTSB are in the middle of a program requiring certain aircraft to be fitted with a solid state CVR which has a capability of 2 hours recording, by 2005. This was increased from the 30 minutes required for tape.
An accompanying article suggested that it was no longer possible to get a "tape"-based CVR, I don't know if that is true.
I believe the European standard follows that of EUROCAE ED-56A , which has the same 2 hour recording requirement.
I guess it would not be too difficult to "dump" selective sections from the "live" area, for later retrieval in the event of an incident like this.
I believe that the NTSB are in the middle of a program requiring certain aircraft to be fitted with a solid state CVR which has a capability of 2 hours recording, by 2005. This was increased from the 30 minutes required for tape.
An accompanying article suggested that it was no longer possible to get a "tape"-based CVR, I don't know if that is true.
I believe the European standard follows that of EUROCAE ED-56A , which has the same 2 hour recording requirement.
I guess it would not be too difficult to "dump" selective sections from the "live" area, for later retrieval in the event of an incident like this.
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Paper Tiger
I don't think that the tower contacted the press.. .I think they contacted the FAA.. .I also think that the crew new what happened once airborne.. .Follow this scenario with me.:. .Tower, CAL1011 ready for departure. Roger,CAL 1011, cleared for take off runway 32, wind calm, contact departure 118.6 when airborne, good night. Cleared take off 32 departure when airborne, CAL 1011.. .Then 1011 thunders down heading 240.. .Now, the SID for 32 says,fly rwy heading till 400 ft then turn LEFT heading 300.. .At 400ft pnf says 400 turn left 300, PF, left??. .300 is right turn, pnf SID says left, few seconds of confusion. PF, call departure.. .Departure, CAL 1011 passing 900 ft.. .Roger CAL 1011 identified, and uh uh your heading. .shows 240 ? Yes, we are turning now 300.. .Ok, uhh CAL 1011, you departed rwy 32??? as we picked you up heading 240.. .Yes, eh uh Affirm CAL1011. Roger then, further cleared as filed FL 200 expect higher in 10 minutes. FL 200 CAL1011.. .Ringg, phone rings in tower. Yellooh, hi departure here, did you send that CAL off on 24 i thought we had 32. Yes 32 it is why.?. .Well, we picked him up heading 240 and when we questioned him there was a bit of confusion seems to me. So we think he took 24. You better send ground ops down there at that intersection to check if lights and other stuff all ok.. .Yep, do that. Ringgg, phone rings at ground ops. Yellohh, hi, tower here, we have some confusion on that CAL that just left which rwy he took, so go to intersection K and roam around , see if you can get some clues, lights or signs or so. Ok, on our way.. .5 minutes later, tower, ground ops charlie 1 here, charlie one, go ahead, ok, we looked around and nothing wrong at the intersection so we drove twy 24 a while and then we saw that snow bank at the end had shaved its top of by big wheels or so, you think that was your CAL??. .Um eh not sure charlie one, you can come back now. Ringg, phone at departure rings, yellowh,. .hi tower here, we think your right, it seems he took off twy 24 and just made it, now what we do, are you still talking to him? No, I just handed him off, but maybe you call FAA, you know, yeah you right. So, tower calls FAA and NOT the press. By this time around 50 people at the airport knew what happened, so take your pick. And at the flight deck, there either was a stunning silence or a hefty debate, but sure they new.
What you think ?
Best regards. .A.V.
I don't think that the tower contacted the press.. .I think they contacted the FAA.. .I also think that the crew new what happened once airborne.. .Follow this scenario with me.:. .Tower, CAL1011 ready for departure. Roger,CAL 1011, cleared for take off runway 32, wind calm, contact departure 118.6 when airborne, good night. Cleared take off 32 departure when airborne, CAL 1011.. .Then 1011 thunders down heading 240.. .Now, the SID for 32 says,fly rwy heading till 400 ft then turn LEFT heading 300.. .At 400ft pnf says 400 turn left 300, PF, left??. .300 is right turn, pnf SID says left, few seconds of confusion. PF, call departure.. .Departure, CAL 1011 passing 900 ft.. .Roger CAL 1011 identified, and uh uh your heading. .shows 240 ? Yes, we are turning now 300.. .Ok, uhh CAL 1011, you departed rwy 32??? as we picked you up heading 240.. .Yes, eh uh Affirm CAL1011. Roger then, further cleared as filed FL 200 expect higher in 10 minutes. FL 200 CAL1011.. .Ringg, phone rings in tower. Yellooh, hi departure here, did you send that CAL off on 24 i thought we had 32. Yes 32 it is why.?. .Well, we picked him up heading 240 and when we questioned him there was a bit of confusion seems to me. So we think he took 24. You better send ground ops down there at that intersection to check if lights and other stuff all ok.. .Yep, do that. Ringgg, phone rings at ground ops. Yellohh, hi, tower here, we have some confusion on that CAL that just left which rwy he took, so go to intersection K and roam around , see if you can get some clues, lights or signs or so. Ok, on our way.. .5 minutes later, tower, ground ops charlie 1 here, charlie one, go ahead, ok, we looked around and nothing wrong at the intersection so we drove twy 24 a while and then we saw that snow bank at the end had shaved its top of by big wheels or so, you think that was your CAL??. .Um eh not sure charlie one, you can come back now. Ringg, phone at departure rings, yellowh,. .hi tower here, we think your right, it seems he took off twy 24 and just made it, now what we do, are you still talking to him? No, I just handed him off, but maybe you call FAA, you know, yeah you right. So, tower calls FAA and NOT the press. By this time around 50 people at the airport knew what happened, so take your pick. And at the flight deck, there either was a stunning silence or a hefty debate, but sure they new.
What you think ?
Best regards. .A.V.
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Newswatcher - thanks for the info. Here is the latest from the Anchorage Daily News.
Controllers didn't try to stop jet. .WRONG WAY Airbus going too fast to stop, tower crew thought.
. .By Zaz Hollander . .Anchorage Daily News
(Published: January 30, 2002) . .A sudden hush fell over the Anchorage air traffic control tower early last Friday morning when controllers realized a rapidly accelerating China Airlines jetliner was about to take off the wrong way and from a taxiway instead of a runway.
The Airbus 340, carrying about 250 people, had pulled away from the international terminal, according to Joette Storm, spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration in Anchorage. It was around 2:45 a.m. Two FAA controllers -- with a third person, who was on break -- were working the tower.
The tower had just given the pilot his takeoff directions. Once the tower realized the Airbus was on a takeoff roll down a relatively short taxiway, controllers decided not to intervene, investigators said Tuesday.
The controllers' silence as they realized they were too late to stop the errant plane was revealed this week to investigators who reviewed a recording of communications between the tower and the pilot.
"Once they brought the power up and were rolling and the controller noticed it, they did not call for an abort," said Scott Erickson, the National Transportation Safety Board's chief investigator on the incident. "I think they were a bit concerned about whether they were going to get airborne."
The controller communicating with the China Airlines pilot cleared the aircraft for takeoff on the airport's 11,000-foot-long north-south runway. The pilot read back the instructions in English, the universal language for air-traffic control.
The controller turned away for a instant, Storm said. "When he turned to look outside again, the plane was on its way down the taxiway."
Given the plane's considerable speed on the 6,000-foot-long taxiway, controllers determined "it would be better to allow them to proceed," she said.
The jet got off the ground but came "inches from disaster," as one investigator put it. Its landing gear cut divots in a snow berm at the end of the taxiway.
The flight landed safely in Taipei later Friday. China Airlines over the weekend grounded the three-person Taiwanese crew until further notice, according to Hamilton Liu, China Air's station manager at Anchorage.
China Airlines officials told The Taipei Times that the suspension of their flight duties is company policy and does not imply guilt.
The Airbus 340 is a new aircraft for the company, Liu said. But he added the pilots are experienced flying other types of aircraft.
China Air is cooperating with the NTSB, FAA and with investigators from the Taiwanese equivalent of the NTSB, he said.
The NTSB investigation will probably take several months, Erickson said. Investigators will analyze the pilots' training and experience and the possibility that language barriers led to communication problems, among other factors.
A parallel FAA effort will investigate the quality of communications, pilot certification and the working condition of airport navigational aids. Taiwan's flight safety officials have reviewed the plane's black box and are communicating with the NTSB by e-mail.
Many questions linger, baffled aviators say.
"That was so close to a real disaster," said Felix Maguire, president of the Alaska Airmen's Association. "It's just incredible how they got away with it."
Why didn't other members of the flight crew question the pilot, given the abundant lights and markings that distinguish the taxiway from the runway? Didn't the plane's instruments tell the flight crew they were not on the 320-degree heading of their assigned runway but a 240-degree heading?
"Which is 80 degrees off," said Maguire, a former commercial pilot who flies a corporate jet. "Any pilot with basic training should know that."
Reporter Zaz Hollander can be reached at [email protected]
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]</p>
Controllers didn't try to stop jet. .WRONG WAY Airbus going too fast to stop, tower crew thought.
. .By Zaz Hollander . .Anchorage Daily News
(Published: January 30, 2002) . .A sudden hush fell over the Anchorage air traffic control tower early last Friday morning when controllers realized a rapidly accelerating China Airlines jetliner was about to take off the wrong way and from a taxiway instead of a runway.
The Airbus 340, carrying about 250 people, had pulled away from the international terminal, according to Joette Storm, spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration in Anchorage. It was around 2:45 a.m. Two FAA controllers -- with a third person, who was on break -- were working the tower.
The tower had just given the pilot his takeoff directions. Once the tower realized the Airbus was on a takeoff roll down a relatively short taxiway, controllers decided not to intervene, investigators said Tuesday.
The controllers' silence as they realized they were too late to stop the errant plane was revealed this week to investigators who reviewed a recording of communications between the tower and the pilot.
"Once they brought the power up and were rolling and the controller noticed it, they did not call for an abort," said Scott Erickson, the National Transportation Safety Board's chief investigator on the incident. "I think they were a bit concerned about whether they were going to get airborne."
The controller communicating with the China Airlines pilot cleared the aircraft for takeoff on the airport's 11,000-foot-long north-south runway. The pilot read back the instructions in English, the universal language for air-traffic control.
The controller turned away for a instant, Storm said. "When he turned to look outside again, the plane was on its way down the taxiway."
Given the plane's considerable speed on the 6,000-foot-long taxiway, controllers determined "it would be better to allow them to proceed," she said.
The jet got off the ground but came "inches from disaster," as one investigator put it. Its landing gear cut divots in a snow berm at the end of the taxiway.
The flight landed safely in Taipei later Friday. China Airlines over the weekend grounded the three-person Taiwanese crew until further notice, according to Hamilton Liu, China Air's station manager at Anchorage.
China Airlines officials told The Taipei Times that the suspension of their flight duties is company policy and does not imply guilt.
The Airbus 340 is a new aircraft for the company, Liu said. But he added the pilots are experienced flying other types of aircraft.
China Air is cooperating with the NTSB, FAA and with investigators from the Taiwanese equivalent of the NTSB, he said.
The NTSB investigation will probably take several months, Erickson said. Investigators will analyze the pilots' training and experience and the possibility that language barriers led to communication problems, among other factors.
A parallel FAA effort will investigate the quality of communications, pilot certification and the working condition of airport navigational aids. Taiwan's flight safety officials have reviewed the plane's black box and are communicating with the NTSB by e-mail.
Many questions linger, baffled aviators say.
"That was so close to a real disaster," said Felix Maguire, president of the Alaska Airmen's Association. "It's just incredible how they got away with it."
Why didn't other members of the flight crew question the pilot, given the abundant lights and markings that distinguish the taxiway from the runway? Didn't the plane's instruments tell the flight crew they were not on the 320-degree heading of their assigned runway but a 240-degree heading?
"Which is 80 degrees off," said Maguire, a former commercial pilot who flies a corporate jet. "Any pilot with basic training should know that."
Reporter Zaz Hollander can be reached at [email protected]
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]</p>
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Hello, PARC Aviation? China Airlines calling....ah, we NEED experienced Captains, right away, First Officers too. Pay NO object.
Shame...will never happen <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Shame...will never happen <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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I have forgotten the exact year but 3 or 4 years ago some of the expats refused to deadhead on CAL, the airline that employed them. Am I correct ? 4 years ,.. lost..4 ..747"s
[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: polzin ]</p>
[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: polzin ]</p>
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As if we don't have enough to worry about in this day and time, flying for a living...
Now I gotta watch out for "rogue" airliners, terrorizing the taxiways...
Good grief...
Glad no one was hurt.
Now I gotta watch out for "rogue" airliners, terrorizing the taxiways...
Good grief...
Glad no one was hurt.
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"Why didn't other members of the flight crew question the pilot, given the abundant lights and markings that distinguish the taxiway from the runway?"
Good Crew Resource Management has never been a strong force among far easterners, to put it politely.
[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]</p>
Good Crew Resource Management has never been a strong force among far easterners, to put it politely.
[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]</p>
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Roadtrip, the FO was pilot flying, the IP on the left side and, apparently, his first time in Anchorage, and the DE in the jump seat. And all of them ex-air force.. . Could it be that the DE, within all his experience, wisdom and majesty was guiding the FO instead of following the airport diagram? After all, he might have been there a thousand times and knew the airport perfectly by day and night. Now go and tell him that he is wrong.UUUhhhh, I don't think so.. .As you said in these eastern airlines the CRM is not very well practiced.
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Smudger,
Tupolevs at least don't disintegrate in midair like . .Airbuses ( flight fivehundredsomething few month ago). .or Boeings (737 cabrio of Hawai years ago or Lauda 767).One has to fly them into something hard to kill. .them.And as Malev crew proved in Tessaloniki year or two ago even that may not be suficient. 154 touched. .down with gear retracted,took-off,extended the gear. .and landed with no injures on board.Try it with some. .of the Western aircraft.
Tupolevs at least don't disintegrate in midair like . .Airbuses ( flight fivehundredsomething few month ago). .or Boeings (737 cabrio of Hawai years ago or Lauda 767).One has to fly them into something hard to kill. .them.And as Malev crew proved in Tessaloniki year or two ago even that may not be suficient. 154 touched. .down with gear retracted,took-off,extended the gear. .and landed with no injures on board.Try it with some. .of the Western aircraft.