Two Pakistan passenger jets nearly collide
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Time frame for accidents and operations was based on info from 1992 to 2002.
I'll give you guys hull loss figures for the same airlines after 1980 for comparison.
3rd world
PIA, 11
Air india, 3
Indian Airlines, 12
Philippine Airlines,7
European
Air France, 8
Lufthansa, 2
Air New Zealand, none
Austrian Airlines, 1
Cathay Pacific, none
Finnair, none
British Airways,none
SAS, 4
Alitalia, 4
Iberia, 3
KLM, 1
Just to give a glimpse to the preformance of the better thirld world carriers since 1980.
Ethiopian, 13
Kenya airways, 3
Biman, 4
Cameroon Airlines, 5
Sri Lankan, 5 all terrorist/war related losses
If one compares hull losses/ fleet size/ hours flown/ cycles it is clear that there are safer and less safe airlines.
AD
I'll give you guys hull loss figures for the same airlines after 1980 for comparison.
3rd world
PIA, 11
Air india, 3
Indian Airlines, 12
Philippine Airlines,7
European
Air France, 8
Lufthansa, 2
Air New Zealand, none
Austrian Airlines, 1
Cathay Pacific, none
Finnair, none
British Airways,none
SAS, 4
Alitalia, 4
Iberia, 3
KLM, 1
Just to give a glimpse to the preformance of the better thirld world carriers since 1980.
Ethiopian, 13
Kenya airways, 3
Biman, 4
Cameroon Airlines, 5
Sri Lankan, 5 all terrorist/war related losses
If one compares hull losses/ fleet size/ hours flown/ cycles it is clear that there are safer and less safe airlines.
AD
How many "Western" airlines operate into places like Gilgit? http://www.pakistaniaviation.com/photogilgit.htm Yes, that's a very big hill in the background. And here's Skardu: http://www.pbase.com/arifakhan/image/33771184
Rather than hull losses I think fatalities on revenue-generating flights would be more informative than including non-fatal incidents on training flights. But I would, I'm SLF.
Rather than hull losses I think fatalities on revenue-generating flights would be more informative than including non-fatal incidents on training flights. But I would, I'm SLF.
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So...
It hardly matters to the PAX why the aircraft crashes. It still crashes, whether caused by a big hill or a terrorist. So don't fly on airlines that crash a lot. Seems simple to me.
I'm never flying AF again either.
Does that make the French "third world"?
I'm never flying AF again either.
Does that make the French "third world"?
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Driver,
Are those hull loss figures down to crashes in the unintended landing sense, or just general hull loses?
It is late and have none of my reference material with me, but I seem to recall that hull loses can occur in a number of ways and perhaps the age of the "3rd world" fleets might account for a hull loss whereas a newer a/c from a "first world" carrier suffering the same incident may have been repaired rather than scrapped due to the financial aspect?
Also, figures for % flights / % accidents by region... takes no account in size of a/c - heavily mountainous regions and nasty weather with small aircraft crashing would worry me less than a different region having fewer accidents but with bigger planes and therefore more dead...perhaps here ASK vs fatalities could be a useful measure.
Sorry, but I Am always dubious about those figures and having worked previously as an analyst know how figures can be bent to say what you want. As other people have said, RSK/ASK flown vs (or per) fatalities might be a more useful measure to your argument - would be interested if you can dig these up.
Ali,
If you wish to fly internally within Pakistan, how else would one do it other than fly with a "3rd world carrier".... methinks there might be some cabotage issues if American Airlines or someone like that were to operate there.
BigAir
Are those hull loss figures down to crashes in the unintended landing sense, or just general hull loses?
It is late and have none of my reference material with me, but I seem to recall that hull loses can occur in a number of ways and perhaps the age of the "3rd world" fleets might account for a hull loss whereas a newer a/c from a "first world" carrier suffering the same incident may have been repaired rather than scrapped due to the financial aspect?
Also, figures for % flights / % accidents by region... takes no account in size of a/c - heavily mountainous regions and nasty weather with small aircraft crashing would worry me less than a different region having fewer accidents but with bigger planes and therefore more dead...perhaps here ASK vs fatalities could be a useful measure.
Sorry, but I Am always dubious about those figures and having worked previously as an analyst know how figures can be bent to say what you want. As other people have said, RSK/ASK flown vs (or per) fatalities might be a more useful measure to your argument - would be interested if you can dig these up.
Ali,
If you wish to fly internally within Pakistan, how else would one do it other than fly with a "3rd world carrier".... methinks there might be some cabotage issues if American Airlines or someone like that were to operate there.
BigAir
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PIA 743 narrowly escapes deadly accident
Here's the news just in....
PIA passenger plane en-route from London to Islamabad made a narrow escape from deadly accident while landing here amid the reports that heavy damage has been caused to the right engine of the aircraft.
PIA London-Islamabad Jumbo 747-300 flight PK 786 as per routine schedule landed at Islamabad on Monday at 9.40 morning. During the course of landing, right side engine of the plane hit the runway after the aircraft lost its balance. About 430 passengers and 16 plane crew were on board. They received severe jerks and damage was caused to engine of craft.
The passengers began reciting prayers loudly with panic gripping them. However captain Anjum controlled the plane and landed it in parking area safely.
PIA has sent a high-level inquiry committee from Karachi to Islamabad to probe into the matter soon after receipt of the reports on incident. Committee will finalise its report and submit it to the higher authorities today.
The sources said that pilot captain Anjum had to face difficulties while landing the flight due to fault in landing system. When the flight entered into airspace of Islamabad, Pilot Anjum took review of landing system and discovered fault therewith. He made aerial round of airport to control the system, which however could not be operated.
Sources told that pilot succeeded in landing the plane, however, the engine rammed into runway due to plane tilt towards right side. The pilot in no time maintained the balance and the plane made hairbreadth escape from fatal accident.
http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=89088
PIA passenger plane en-route from London to Islamabad made a narrow escape from deadly accident while landing here amid the reports that heavy damage has been caused to the right engine of the aircraft.
PIA London-Islamabad Jumbo 747-300 flight PK 786 as per routine schedule landed at Islamabad on Monday at 9.40 morning. During the course of landing, right side engine of the plane hit the runway after the aircraft lost its balance. About 430 passengers and 16 plane crew were on board. They received severe jerks and damage was caused to engine of craft.
The passengers began reciting prayers loudly with panic gripping them. However captain Anjum controlled the plane and landed it in parking area safely.
PIA has sent a high-level inquiry committee from Karachi to Islamabad to probe into the matter soon after receipt of the reports on incident. Committee will finalise its report and submit it to the higher authorities today.
The sources said that pilot captain Anjum had to face difficulties while landing the flight due to fault in landing system. When the flight entered into airspace of Islamabad, Pilot Anjum took review of landing system and discovered fault therewith. He made aerial round of airport to control the system, which however could not be operated.
Sources told that pilot succeeded in landing the plane, however, the engine rammed into runway due to plane tilt towards right side. The pilot in no time maintained the balance and the plane made hairbreadth escape from fatal accident.
http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=89088
Please excuse the witticism which may possibly be inappropriate given the subject matter of aviation safety, but thoughts of Frank Spencer in Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em instantly spring to mind.
However captain Anjum controlled the plane and landed it in parking area safely
when reading such Incident reports
Red On, Green On
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If you are going to be really accurate you've also got to factor out all issues external to the airline, from the obvious ATC/navaids quality/provision to the absurd, such as the water buffalo that wandered onto the Aceh rw and pranged a 73 in the last few hours.
You could go further and factor out all/some weather issues. By way of example the F104 operated by USAF in Germany had an appalling safety record, largely due to the fact that the pilots had trained in weather-free Arizona/Nevada.
Only when you are comparing real like with like can you give a true "airline safety" league.
You could go further and factor out all/some weather issues. By way of example the F104 operated by USAF in Germany had an appalling safety record, largely due to the fact that the pilots had trained in weather-free Arizona/Nevada.
Only when you are comparing real like with like can you give a true "airline safety" league.
On the Freight Dogs forum there are threads which allege serious malpractice by 2 large US carriers with regard to engineering issues, falsifying of Tech Log reports etc.
No idea if they are true, but it does show that even so called 1st world carriers have issues that need to be addressed.
No idea if they are true, but it does show that even so called 1st world carriers have issues that need to be addressed.
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Flightrider, Thanks for the memory...Frank Spencer... nearly filled my Depends!!! As was commented, the English language does not always lend itself to literal translation. But I have visions of Biggles and Ginger battling the controls with archaic headsets wrapped around their necks!!!!!! We need at least one reporter on our side.
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RRAAMJET - he's hardly going to taxi (or land) on stand with a gear failure is he?
Off Justplanes.com
A Pakistan International Boeing 747-300 operating flight PK786 which departed London\'s Heathrow Airport on Sunday evening was involved in an incident while landing at the Islamabad International Airport on Monday morning around 0930. The aircraft was landing in fog and as it tilted to one side an engine scraped the runway. No one was hurt however the engine sustained damage.
Off Justplanes.com
A Pakistan International Boeing 747-300 operating flight PK786 which departed London\'s Heathrow Airport on Sunday evening was involved in an incident while landing at the Islamabad International Airport on Monday morning around 0930. The aircraft was landing in fog and as it tilted to one side an engine scraped the runway. No one was hurt however the engine sustained damage.
Last edited by Mode7; 5th Jan 2005 at 07:24.
