Cathay - fear culture = safety culture?
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Cathay - fear culture = safety culture?
It appears by the amount of incidents that Cathay Pacific have had of late and the postings on this forum that CX may well be mixing the word "fear" with "safety". I have also just added my two peneth worth to the "terms of endearment" forum under the "freighter atmosphere" thread. Any comments?
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Fear and safety go well together. It's the fear of an incident that makes you double/ triple check things, and not take short cuts on maintenance etc. Or fear of a random check by the regulators
Now, maybe we should all be mature professionals that do this anyway - but a back up of punishment based regulation is needed. To use an analogy, we all agree drink driving is wrong/ dangerous etc. - but the fear of a breath test/ loss of driving licence certainly helps reinforce the safety...
Now, maybe we should all be mature professionals that do this anyway - but a back up of punishment based regulation is needed. To use an analogy, we all agree drink driving is wrong/ dangerous etc. - but the fear of a breath test/ loss of driving licence certainly helps reinforce the safety...
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Fear is a double edged sword and meant to deal with one when he/she forgets one is an adult and responsible for his/her actions. However a true professional is expected to deal with a problem without having to use "fear" to motivate him to perform. a company which uses fear to make sure its professionals function does not in itself have a professional approach. Fear is an extreme and should be kept off the flight deck IMHO.
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Maybe we are arguing semantics.
Whether it the the internal fear (conscience) that makes you meet your professional responsibilities for fear of what will happen if you screw up, or an external fear of what the regulators will do to you if you mess up...
I can't think of any profession that doesn't have tough sanctions to discipline screw ups if required - e.g. doctors/ LAMES/ lawyers/pilots can all have their licenses removed for screwing up
Then I guess there are the "true professionals" that always give their best, whether on the flight deck or playing with their children
Whether it the the internal fear (conscience) that makes you meet your professional responsibilities for fear of what will happen if you screw up, or an external fear of what the regulators will do to you if you mess up...
I can't think of any profession that doesn't have tough sanctions to discipline screw ups if required - e.g. doctors/ LAMES/ lawyers/pilots can all have their licenses removed for screwing up
Then I guess there are the "true professionals" that always give their best, whether on the flight deck or playing with their children
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I think I was a little misunderstood with this post judging by the responses. Fear culture within Cathay Pacific leads to people keeping there mouths shut when they should be speaking out about safety concerns. People who do speak out are dismissed, so the majority have learned not to rock the boat for fear of being next. This cannot be good. The reasoning behind this culture is quite simple - money. Cut back on training, keep defects out of the log to keep the aircraft flying, threaten staff and make them feel they are lucky to have a job - just some of the tactics apparently used by CX. I do not see how fear of speaking out is good!!
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Certainly don't agree with those sentiments, Freehills. There is no place for bombastic Captains on the flight deck or a fear culture from the management. The proven way to get the best from the crew is by keeping a friendly manner and even if someone makes a little error here and there - as long as it gets picked up by another crew member - just smile. I see no point in everyone sitting on the edge of their seats worrying about what's going to happen next. If you make a big thing about tiny errors, IMHO the really important events tend to get missed as, particularly on long sectors, it's so difficult to keep such a high level of concentration. We've all flown with overbearing pilots who are such perfectionists they reduce their crew to quivering wrecks, all fingers and thumbs. Flying big aeroplanes is a team game!
I've always liked a relaxed professional atmosphere in the flight deck and generally find that crew don't take advantage of this by getting into sloppy habits. Unfortunately there are a very few people who abuse this- lazy, incompetent, whatever - they get weeded out pretty quickly. It appears that the weeding ratio at Cathay is abnormally high!
Cheers, Y
I've always liked a relaxed professional atmosphere in the flight deck and generally find that crew don't take advantage of this by getting into sloppy habits. Unfortunately there are a very few people who abuse this- lazy, incompetent, whatever - they get weeded out pretty quickly. It appears that the weeding ratio at Cathay is abnormally high!
Cheers, Y
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don't wannabe
You have made 7 posts in 2 days. Not bad for a beginner. If you really have a problem I suggest you contact the following and make a written complaint. No use bleating on here.
Director-General of Civil Aviation, 46/F.,Queensway Government Offices, 66 Queensway, HONG KONG
Cathay Pacific is a multi cultural society. If you can't live with that concept it is best that you stay at home. I have had a great time with this airline and the deal just gets better and better. Great aircraft, great operational back up and a great bunch of crews to fly with. If you play with a straight bat you get bowled a decent ball.
Stacks of jobs coming up for those who will put in 110% on the course and not cry in their beer when the going gets a little tough.
You have made 7 posts in 2 days. Not bad for a beginner. If you really have a problem I suggest you contact the following and make a written complaint. No use bleating on here.
Director-General of Civil Aviation, 46/F.,Queensway Government Offices, 66 Queensway, HONG KONG
Cathay Pacific is a multi cultural society. If you can't live with that concept it is best that you stay at home. I have had a great time with this airline and the deal just gets better and better. Great aircraft, great operational back up and a great bunch of crews to fly with. If you play with a straight bat you get bowled a decent ball.
Stacks of jobs coming up for those who will put in 110% on the course and not cry in their beer when the going gets a little tough.
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Don't wanabee
Your name implies thay u don't wan't to join anyway or perhaps didn't come up with the goods.
Your statements are so incorrect. Cathay could hardly be accused of cutting back on training, but more for overtraining! As for the tech log entries. Any snags are written up and dealt with. Cathay is not a two bit airline but has impeccable standars of maintenance and operating standards. I have flown for several other airlines where one would be in fear of "snagging" but certainly not with CX.
I agree that the atmosphere can be rather taut at times but having working for several airlines before, Cathay is the best by far.
Your statements are so incorrect. Cathay could hardly be accused of cutting back on training, but more for overtraining! As for the tech log entries. Any snags are written up and dealt with. Cathay is not a two bit airline but has impeccable standars of maintenance and operating standards. I have flown for several other airlines where one would be in fear of "snagging" but certainly not with CX.
I agree that the atmosphere can be rather taut at times but having working for several airlines before, Cathay is the best by far.
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Fr8t, "crying off in your beer when things get a little tough" eh - no doubt you also use terms such bas "tough managemant" and "if you cannot stand the heat keep away from the fire". All these are terms used by bullying managers which have no place in aviation today. As I mentioned earlier, I had no intention of posting until reading some of the comments here which jogged me into action. After all I thought a forum was a place where people can put thier views across.
The Hong Kong CAD have already been informed of serious transgressions of safety within Cathay Pacific and they also covered the matter up. As mentioned the CAD is a Chinese government department, and the Chinese government own 25% of CX. Add that to the huge corruption problems within China and Hong Kong and you have a heady mix.
I can speak from personal experience of the standards of maintenance at CX. They are abismal. By far the worst of the major carriers I have worked for. Its not what you write up in the log, its the things that are hidden from the log altogether that should be your concern.
If you would like an example of CX maintenance take a recent example. The CX251 engine fire over Moscow. The part not reported was that after flying back to LHR on three engines the second engine on the same wing gave up. It had a surge followed by an egt of over 1000, 400 above the limit. So double engine change at LHR (1 and 2 ). Now every carrier I know of has strict policies when it comes to engine maintenance on the same wing - except CX. When they discover the high power run pen at BA is booked up do they wait? NO. "the crew can carry out the high power run at the start of the T/O roll !! Oh yeah, and I suppose there was a junior second out by the engines with the cowls open. "But wait there, a double engine change on the same wing, mandatory air test under CAA regs" No No not with the HKCAD, the crew can do the air test on its way to HKG with 400 punters on."
Of course no one said anything as the last guy to raise his head up was sacked - oh sorry "made redundant" last year.
I look forward to January when the truth will be out in court.
Oh and if you would like a bit more info try reading Chirp feedback issue 69 in the maintenance section "to check or not to check" and note the correct response from the CAA. More CX maintenance at its best !!
The Hong Kong CAD have already been informed of serious transgressions of safety within Cathay Pacific and they also covered the matter up. As mentioned the CAD is a Chinese government department, and the Chinese government own 25% of CX. Add that to the huge corruption problems within China and Hong Kong and you have a heady mix.
I can speak from personal experience of the standards of maintenance at CX. They are abismal. By far the worst of the major carriers I have worked for. Its not what you write up in the log, its the things that are hidden from the log altogether that should be your concern.
If you would like an example of CX maintenance take a recent example. The CX251 engine fire over Moscow. The part not reported was that after flying back to LHR on three engines the second engine on the same wing gave up. It had a surge followed by an egt of over 1000, 400 above the limit. So double engine change at LHR (1 and 2 ). Now every carrier I know of has strict policies when it comes to engine maintenance on the same wing - except CX. When they discover the high power run pen at BA is booked up do they wait? NO. "the crew can carry out the high power run at the start of the T/O roll !! Oh yeah, and I suppose there was a junior second out by the engines with the cowls open. "But wait there, a double engine change on the same wing, mandatory air test under CAA regs" No No not with the HKCAD, the crew can do the air test on its way to HKG with 400 punters on."
Of course no one said anything as the last guy to raise his head up was sacked - oh sorry "made redundant" last year.
I look forward to January when the truth will be out in court.
Oh and if you would like a bit more info try reading Chirp feedback issue 69 in the maintenance section "to check or not to check" and note the correct response from the CAA. More CX maintenance at its best !!
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This is getting into a bit of a slanging match but I'm afraid that I'd rather have someone who has got through the CX mill sitting beside me than any other driver. Cx may not be soft, but it's fair and those that cut the mustard have achieved something that not everyone can.
don't wannabe - your grapes are going sour. Up with this rot we cannot put.
don't wannabe - your grapes are going sour. Up with this rot we cannot put.
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So dont then.....
No intention of posting eh? Just decided to slag off CX 7 times in one day? I think your comments on the CAD inspectors are damn near liable. I have met several of them and they are competant and fair. If your flying skills are anything like your spelling skills, no wonder you failed. I note you have worked for "major carriers" (plural) who does that if they're any good? Must have failed at a few places then eh?
You are so far off the mark with your comments on CX, its not even funny. As stated, it is no tinpot, second string airline, but one of the very best in the world.
By the way, Merry Xmas and Happy New Year
Nosey
You are so far off the mark with your comments on CX, its not even funny. As stated, it is no tinpot, second string airline, but one of the very best in the world. By the way, Merry Xmas and Happy New Year
Nosey
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I think you would have a different view once you see the hard documented evidence. I do not wish to enter a personal slagging match but I can assure you that everything I have said is true and based on documented evidence which will be aired in a U.K court. I always found with CX that they did not wish to see the truth, no matter what evidence of it was put before them. If CX carry on claiming to be "the best" (completely self proclaimed I may add) then they should really start proving it. It is a little like the relegated football side still claiming to be the best in the league !!
I can also see that it is difficult for people who have been treatede O.K by CX to not see the points raised, however there is no smoke without fire. I have obviously upset a lot of people here, but I still do not see any claims put forward to counter the poor maintenance arguments I have put forward, speaks volumes.
As for myself - I have worked for three carriers two of which were long term and my ability has never been questioned.
All the best
DW
I can also see that it is difficult for people who have been treatede O.K by CX to not see the points raised, however there is no smoke without fire. I have obviously upset a lot of people here, but I still do not see any claims put forward to counter the poor maintenance arguments I have put forward, speaks volumes.
As for myself - I have worked for three carriers two of which were long term and my ability has never been questioned.
All the best
DW
Last edited by don't wannabe; 24th Dec 2004 at 10:43.
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Summing up *quote*:
- If you play with a straight bat you get bowled a decent ball.
- Your name implies that u don't wan't to join anyway or perhaps didn't come up with the goods.
- I'd rather have someone who has got through the CX mill sitting beside me than any other driver. Cx may not be soft, but it's fair and those that cut the mustard have achieved something that not everyone can.
- If your flying skills are anything like your spelling skills, no wonder you failed. I note you have worked for "major carriers" (plural) who does that if they're any good? ---Must have failed at a few places then eh? You are so far off the mark with your comments on CX, its not even funny.
Now, if it weren’t so adverse to your highly strung personal career hopes, I’d suggest you stop blowing the management trumpet in such a blunt way and condoning actions that are clearly questionable, at the end of the day it is YOU still in the boat. Perhaps becoming a little more critical and showing some support for your colleagues would help, an anonymous forum is a suitable platform. Seems no wannabe is someone with a little more insight than the average jock from flight ops. Either you lend an ear and comment apropriately and measured, or you stop reading what the man has got to say and consider attending another one of those CRM-refreshers.
- If you play with a straight bat you get bowled a decent ball.
- Your name implies that u don't wan't to join anyway or perhaps didn't come up with the goods.
- I'd rather have someone who has got through the CX mill sitting beside me than any other driver. Cx may not be soft, but it's fair and those that cut the mustard have achieved something that not everyone can.
- If your flying skills are anything like your spelling skills, no wonder you failed. I note you have worked for "major carriers" (plural) who does that if they're any good? ---Must have failed at a few places then eh? You are so far off the mark with your comments on CX, its not even funny.
Now, if it weren’t so adverse to your highly strung personal career hopes, I’d suggest you stop blowing the management trumpet in such a blunt way and condoning actions that are clearly questionable, at the end of the day it is YOU still in the boat. Perhaps becoming a little more critical and showing some support for your colleagues would help, an anonymous forum is a suitable platform. Seems no wannabe is someone with a little more insight than the average jock from flight ops. Either you lend an ear and comment apropriately and measured, or you stop reading what the man has got to say and consider attending another one of those CRM-refreshers.
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Come off it Nose Gear! don't wannabe is making valid points and your spelling is no better than his ( competence + libelous? ). The management record of Cathay is appalling - have we forgotten the 49 ers already? Y
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A few corrections:
It was the 250 not the 251.
The engine did not catch fire, hi vibes, hi EGT (800)eng shut down.
On landing after selecting reverse thrust the no1 eng surged.
Only tests that are required after installing a pre tested engine are tests 1, (fuel and oil circulation) 3a (minimun idle check) and 14 (nose cowl anti-ice test) an additional test was caried out and that was test 4a although not reqd (VIGV airflow control). Which were all carried out.
CAD do not require an airtest.
Engs 1 & 2 were the replaced engines.
1000 is not 400 above the limit, 600 is the limit for starting, then again you should know that! 805 is allowed upto 20 secs.
Yes an engine change takes 8 hrs, if you have one to hand and it is fully made up, if you don't have one then it takes a little longer whilst you wait for it to be shipped over!
It was the 250 not the 251.
The engine did not catch fire, hi vibes, hi EGT (800)eng shut down.
On landing after selecting reverse thrust the no1 eng surged.
Only tests that are required after installing a pre tested engine are tests 1, (fuel and oil circulation) 3a (minimun idle check) and 14 (nose cowl anti-ice test) an additional test was caried out and that was test 4a although not reqd (VIGV airflow control). Which were all carried out.
CAD do not require an airtest.
Engs 1 & 2 were the replaced engines.
1000 is not 400 above the limit, 600 is the limit for starting, then again you should know that! 805 is allowed upto 20 secs.
Yes an engine change takes 8 hrs, if you have one to hand and it is fully made up, if you don't have one then it takes a little longer whilst you wait for it to be shipped over!
Last edited by spannersatcx; 26th Dec 2004 at 16:22.