More unrest at ryanair
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...and it's not just pilots/cabin crew who are being shafted here. You only have to listen to the abuse ground staff get to tell that FR is one hell of a rotten egg to work for. IMHO
There is light at the end of the tunnel, but 
There is light at the end of the tunnel, but
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Butpau - what an interesting post. Are you satisfied with having an industry dragged down to it's lowest level by management that is determined to run an airline like a bus service?
You sound bitter and I will agree that without deregulation there would be far fewer jobs in the industry and these would be taken by the "O" club set from ye olde squadron. But senior pilots generally have to put up with a lot of sh## in a startup airline, low wages, lots of hours, uncertain future, etc. Ryanair almost cratered under the Ryan family until MOL stepped in. Where MOL has failed, however, is by not instilling a corporate culture that is vital in a service industry - a culture of service that treats employees as being as special as customers. If you think I am spouting cheese then read 'Nuts', the story behind Southwest Airlines, the airline FR and others are trying to emulate. Its the people at the airline that make the business run. Herb took care of his people and they have taken his business plan and run with it. MOL and his ilk do not understand this. They worship at the alter of low costs above all and fail to see that you need the revenue generated by happy customers more than you need the ultimate in low costs. FR has a huge CASM advantage over the old line carriers but if they can reduce costs AND keep customers happy then they will win back passengers. And if they can't then someone else who will provide a better service will.
Pilots have always worked for sh## wages, paying their dues instructing, flying freight or charter or even towing banners with the hope that one day they COULD make 130k per year. And for a profession that has more opportunities to have your license taken away each year (checkrides, medicals) than any other profession you need that payoff. You only have so many years to make some money before you are involuntarily retired at age 60. If lawyers and politicians had to do so as well do you think we would have as many restrictions on our profession as we do?
Unions exist because of bad management. A good manager would never have to face the threat of industrial action. Pilots are notoriously poor union members. We have traits of independent thinking and direct action that are essential skills in our jobs. But you come to a point in time where you have no choice but to band together. Ryanair pilots are at that point.
Sorry, couldn\'t resist adding one more post on the importance of employee morale.
The followiing is an article on this subject:
Job stress beginning to take toll on some airline workers
By Barbara De Lollis, USA TODAY
Workers at major airlines are showing signs of strain from salary and benefit cuts, threats to their pensions, demotions, layoffs and bigger workloads. And travelers are starting to pay.
No love lost: Members of the Association of Flight Attendants voice their opinions of the airlines they work for.
By Gene J. Puskar, AP
In the past month, the FBI launched an investigation into whether employees punctured US Airways jets. Strike talk spread among flight attendants at United, US Airways and other carriers. And unusually high numbers of workers sought counseling services.
Psychologists and management experts say a demoralized workforce anxious about their pay, personal lives and job safety doesn\'t bode well for passengers during the busy holiday travel season. That\'s especially true this season, as airlines carry a record number of passengers and lines at security checkpoints lengthen because of tougher requirements.
Stressed-out employees and irritated passengers "create a time bomb for explosive interaction," says Richard Chaifetz, CEO of ComPsych, an employee assistance provider. As of September, ComPsych received about 20% more calls than last year from baggage handlers, flight attendants, pilots and other major airline workers. The uptick — even greater at more-troubled carriers — indicates higher levels of stress, unhappiness and uncertainty, he says.
Even though fliers have come to expect less from their major-airline flight experience since the Sept. 11 attacks, research shows they\'ve noticed a difference this year.
Their No. 1 gripe? Less-courteous flight crews, says Jonathan Barsky of Market Metrix Hospitality Index.
The index, based on surveys of 35,000 fliers, shows satisfaction falling since January, after reaching a two-year high. Similarly, the University of Michigan\'s American Customer Satisfaction Index shows that satisfaction with major carriers fell this year after rising last year.
"Customer satisfaction and financial performance tend to go hand in hand," Barsky says.
The airlines know that and are trying to counter the intense resentment felt by some employees, many of whom have worked 15 or more years for a carrier. Those people, in particular, feel overworked, underpaid, underappreciated and uncertain about their futures, Chaifetz says.
The USA\'s six big traditional carriers will lose an estimated $8 billion this year — more than the $5 billion previously projected — in part because of low-fare competition and record-high jet fuel prices. This month, Continental became the last of the six airlines to seek labor givebacks. The other carriers in the group — American (AMR), United, Delta (DAL), Northwest (NWAC) and US Airways — might not be finished squeezing employees yet.
"You have carriers still in bankruptcy and in precarious financial situations," says airline consultant Dave Emerson of Bain & Co. "There\'s no guarantee there won\'t be more pay cuts and layoffs going forward."
Morale\'s costs
While the bad news continues, some carriers are revamping employee incentive programs and trying to improve communication with workers.
There\'s little dispute that employee morale is "hugely important," says Lee Macenczak, Delta\'s senior vice president of customer service.
"While self-service has grown in popularity, at the end of the day, it is about dealing with people ... and morale definitely plays into that," Macenczak says.
Poor morale has risks. It:
•Hurts productivity. Some employees might not work as hard at a time when 110% effort is needed to diminish airlines\' financial losses. The big airlines are handling about the same number of passengers as they did four years ago when they had as many as 40% more employees. Seriously troubled companies sometimes see a short-term boost in productivity as employees try harder, says Claes Fornell, director of the American Customer Satisfaction Index. But it fades as their sense of determination turns to hopelessness.
•Drives passengers away. "People don\'t feel good about flying an airline where the employees don\'t feel good about working for them," says ComPsych\'s Chaifetz. Employee attitudes become more important as the airlines extend low fares to compete directly with the discounters. When fares are similar, "I\'ll fly the one I feel I get the better experience on," says consultant Tom Knighton of Forum Corp., a Boston-based firm that trains managers and employees how to improve customer service.
Knighton points to Gallup research that shows that when an airline employee "stands out" in a positive way, a flier is 15 times more likely to fly the same carrier.
•Hampers turnaround efforts. Whether inside headquarters or the hangar, these airlines need employees to give their all, says Kevin Mitchell of the Business Travel Coalition. Bad attitudes hurt efforts to improve customer service, which is critical to survival, he says.
Frequent flier Gary Lockhart overheard ticket agents discussing pay cuts, layoffs and low morale as he waited to board a US Airways flight from New York LaGuardia to Pittsburgh earlier this year. Right then, he vowed to switch carriers.
"I wondered if the pilots felt the same way. ... Not exactly a comforting thought," Lockhart says. "Since then, I fly US Air as little as possible."
Michael Steiner, president of New York-based Ovation Corporate Travel, says his business clients are happy with some changes the airlines have made, such as offering more self-service kiosks. But they complain about "the loss of the personal touch."
Delta frequent flier Karen Lamphier dislikes flying mostly because of the security. But Delta\'s staff makes it bearable, she says, citing a recent case of when the VIP lounge staff went out of their way to help during a flight delay.
"The people still make the difference," says the software consultant from Eden, Utah.
Airline employees say that they will continue to do their jobs well, regardless of pay and benefit cuts.
"I don\'t think that any of the flight crews are taking it out on the passengers," says US Airways flight attendant John McCorkle. "They recognize that the customers are just innocent bystanders caught in the middle."
Discounters shine
Statistics compiled by the Department of Transportation show that from January to September, discounters Southwest and JetBlue received among the fewest complaints per 100,000 passengers of 19 airlines ranked. They placed second and third, behind ExpressJet Airlines, a regional carrier that operates Continental Express flights. All the big six carriers placed in the bottom half of the list, with United and US Airways placing 15th and 16th. Results were similar for the same period last year.
Most passengers might not directly feel employees\' frustration unless they overhear grousing in the galley or at the boarding gate, or talk to employees. But it is rippling into the workplace:
• A small number of United mechanics not typically seen by the public regularly sport caps with two large letters — "F" and "U" — and, in small print, "Fly United."
• This month, leaders of the Association of Flight Attendants — the USA\'s biggest flight attendant union — called for an industrywide strike if US Airways, or any other carrier, succeeds in rescinding labor contracts in bankruptcy court. Flight attendants at several airlines, including US Airways and United, are voting on strike authority. Flight attendants at American, the world\'s largest airline, and Southwest say they support the vote.
• The FBI is investigating whether US Airways employees last month punched small holes in the belly of three jets in Charlotte and Orlando. The damage, described as minor exterior damage, was discovered during routine maintenance checks last month, shortly before a bankruptcy court approved 21% temporary pay cuts. The union that represents mechanics and related employees called it "reckless and irresponsible" to speculate on what caused the damage.
• Earlier this month, US Airways had two instances of higher-than-usual sick calls in Philadelphia. The sick calls, along with baggage belt and computer problems, resulted in some flight delays and cancellations, says spokesman David Castelveter. Also in Philadelphia, passengers last month heard a voice on the speaker system say that, because of 21% temporary pay cuts, baggage would arrive up to an hour and a half late, according to The Philadelphia Inquirer.
Incentives at work
As workers try to adjust to the new reality, the major airlines are trying to soften the blow for their remaining workers.
Some, such as American, United and Delta, are creating programs to reward employees for superior performance. Most are also introducing profit-sharing programs. United says its incentive program is already working. The carrier has met its goals as measured by on-time performance and customer intent to fly United again in each of the past three quarters, and has paid out bonuses, says United spokeswoman Jean Medina.
But until the airlines turn losses into profits, employees can\'t count on profit sharing for bigger paychecks.
US Airways is widely considered to have the worst morale problem of its peers. It has gone to its union-represented employees for two rounds of concessions and is negotiating a third round now with mechanics, flight attendants and customer-service agents. If deals aren\'t reached, it will begin making its case Thursday in bankruptcy court to void the contracts.
To prevent sick calls during the hectic holiday period, CEO Bruce Lakefield said, the airline reinstated an incentive program that it can afford. Employees with perfect attendance through early January, and those who work peak days, will earn US Airways tickets and the chance to enter a lottery for freebies donated by vendors, such as game tickets for the NFL\'s Philadelphia Eagles and NBA\'s Charlotte Bobcats, he says.
"We\'d like to get all this behind us," Lakefield says. "When people have futures, they feel much better about morale and their personal lives."
You sound bitter and I will agree that without deregulation there would be far fewer jobs in the industry and these would be taken by the "O" club set from ye olde squadron. But senior pilots generally have to put up with a lot of sh## in a startup airline, low wages, lots of hours, uncertain future, etc. Ryanair almost cratered under the Ryan family until MOL stepped in. Where MOL has failed, however, is by not instilling a corporate culture that is vital in a service industry - a culture of service that treats employees as being as special as customers. If you think I am spouting cheese then read 'Nuts', the story behind Southwest Airlines, the airline FR and others are trying to emulate. Its the people at the airline that make the business run. Herb took care of his people and they have taken his business plan and run with it. MOL and his ilk do not understand this. They worship at the alter of low costs above all and fail to see that you need the revenue generated by happy customers more than you need the ultimate in low costs. FR has a huge CASM advantage over the old line carriers but if they can reduce costs AND keep customers happy then they will win back passengers. And if they can't then someone else who will provide a better service will.
Pilots have always worked for sh## wages, paying their dues instructing, flying freight or charter or even towing banners with the hope that one day they COULD make 130k per year. And for a profession that has more opportunities to have your license taken away each year (checkrides, medicals) than any other profession you need that payoff. You only have so many years to make some money before you are involuntarily retired at age 60. If lawyers and politicians had to do so as well do you think we would have as many restrictions on our profession as we do?
Unions exist because of bad management. A good manager would never have to face the threat of industrial action. Pilots are notoriously poor union members. We have traits of independent thinking and direct action that are essential skills in our jobs. But you come to a point in time where you have no choice but to band together. Ryanair pilots are at that point.
Sorry, couldn\'t resist adding one more post on the importance of employee morale.
The followiing is an article on this subject:
Job stress beginning to take toll on some airline workers
By Barbara De Lollis, USA TODAY
Workers at major airlines are showing signs of strain from salary and benefit cuts, threats to their pensions, demotions, layoffs and bigger workloads. And travelers are starting to pay.
No love lost: Members of the Association of Flight Attendants voice their opinions of the airlines they work for.
By Gene J. Puskar, AP
In the past month, the FBI launched an investigation into whether employees punctured US Airways jets. Strike talk spread among flight attendants at United, US Airways and other carriers. And unusually high numbers of workers sought counseling services.
Psychologists and management experts say a demoralized workforce anxious about their pay, personal lives and job safety doesn\'t bode well for passengers during the busy holiday travel season. That\'s especially true this season, as airlines carry a record number of passengers and lines at security checkpoints lengthen because of tougher requirements.
Stressed-out employees and irritated passengers "create a time bomb for explosive interaction," says Richard Chaifetz, CEO of ComPsych, an employee assistance provider. As of September, ComPsych received about 20% more calls than last year from baggage handlers, flight attendants, pilots and other major airline workers. The uptick — even greater at more-troubled carriers — indicates higher levels of stress, unhappiness and uncertainty, he says.
Even though fliers have come to expect less from their major-airline flight experience since the Sept. 11 attacks, research shows they\'ve noticed a difference this year.
Their No. 1 gripe? Less-courteous flight crews, says Jonathan Barsky of Market Metrix Hospitality Index.
The index, based on surveys of 35,000 fliers, shows satisfaction falling since January, after reaching a two-year high. Similarly, the University of Michigan\'s American Customer Satisfaction Index shows that satisfaction with major carriers fell this year after rising last year.
"Customer satisfaction and financial performance tend to go hand in hand," Barsky says.
The airlines know that and are trying to counter the intense resentment felt by some employees, many of whom have worked 15 or more years for a carrier. Those people, in particular, feel overworked, underpaid, underappreciated and uncertain about their futures, Chaifetz says.
The USA\'s six big traditional carriers will lose an estimated $8 billion this year — more than the $5 billion previously projected — in part because of low-fare competition and record-high jet fuel prices. This month, Continental became the last of the six airlines to seek labor givebacks. The other carriers in the group — American (AMR), United, Delta (DAL), Northwest (NWAC) and US Airways — might not be finished squeezing employees yet.
"You have carriers still in bankruptcy and in precarious financial situations," says airline consultant Dave Emerson of Bain & Co. "There\'s no guarantee there won\'t be more pay cuts and layoffs going forward."
Morale\'s costs
While the bad news continues, some carriers are revamping employee incentive programs and trying to improve communication with workers.
There\'s little dispute that employee morale is "hugely important," says Lee Macenczak, Delta\'s senior vice president of customer service.
"While self-service has grown in popularity, at the end of the day, it is about dealing with people ... and morale definitely plays into that," Macenczak says.
Poor morale has risks. It:
•Hurts productivity. Some employees might not work as hard at a time when 110% effort is needed to diminish airlines\' financial losses. The big airlines are handling about the same number of passengers as they did four years ago when they had as many as 40% more employees. Seriously troubled companies sometimes see a short-term boost in productivity as employees try harder, says Claes Fornell, director of the American Customer Satisfaction Index. But it fades as their sense of determination turns to hopelessness.
•Drives passengers away. "People don\'t feel good about flying an airline where the employees don\'t feel good about working for them," says ComPsych\'s Chaifetz. Employee attitudes become more important as the airlines extend low fares to compete directly with the discounters. When fares are similar, "I\'ll fly the one I feel I get the better experience on," says consultant Tom Knighton of Forum Corp., a Boston-based firm that trains managers and employees how to improve customer service.
Knighton points to Gallup research that shows that when an airline employee "stands out" in a positive way, a flier is 15 times more likely to fly the same carrier.
•Hampers turnaround efforts. Whether inside headquarters or the hangar, these airlines need employees to give their all, says Kevin Mitchell of the Business Travel Coalition. Bad attitudes hurt efforts to improve customer service, which is critical to survival, he says.
Frequent flier Gary Lockhart overheard ticket agents discussing pay cuts, layoffs and low morale as he waited to board a US Airways flight from New York LaGuardia to Pittsburgh earlier this year. Right then, he vowed to switch carriers.
"I wondered if the pilots felt the same way. ... Not exactly a comforting thought," Lockhart says. "Since then, I fly US Air as little as possible."
Michael Steiner, president of New York-based Ovation Corporate Travel, says his business clients are happy with some changes the airlines have made, such as offering more self-service kiosks. But they complain about "the loss of the personal touch."
Delta frequent flier Karen Lamphier dislikes flying mostly because of the security. But Delta\'s staff makes it bearable, she says, citing a recent case of when the VIP lounge staff went out of their way to help during a flight delay.
"The people still make the difference," says the software consultant from Eden, Utah.
Airline employees say that they will continue to do their jobs well, regardless of pay and benefit cuts.
"I don\'t think that any of the flight crews are taking it out on the passengers," says US Airways flight attendant John McCorkle. "They recognize that the customers are just innocent bystanders caught in the middle."
Discounters shine
Statistics compiled by the Department of Transportation show that from January to September, discounters Southwest and JetBlue received among the fewest complaints per 100,000 passengers of 19 airlines ranked. They placed second and third, behind ExpressJet Airlines, a regional carrier that operates Continental Express flights. All the big six carriers placed in the bottom half of the list, with United and US Airways placing 15th and 16th. Results were similar for the same period last year.
Most passengers might not directly feel employees\' frustration unless they overhear grousing in the galley or at the boarding gate, or talk to employees. But it is rippling into the workplace:
• A small number of United mechanics not typically seen by the public regularly sport caps with two large letters — "F" and "U" — and, in small print, "Fly United."
• This month, leaders of the Association of Flight Attendants — the USA\'s biggest flight attendant union — called for an industrywide strike if US Airways, or any other carrier, succeeds in rescinding labor contracts in bankruptcy court. Flight attendants at several airlines, including US Airways and United, are voting on strike authority. Flight attendants at American, the world\'s largest airline, and Southwest say they support the vote.
• The FBI is investigating whether US Airways employees last month punched small holes in the belly of three jets in Charlotte and Orlando. The damage, described as minor exterior damage, was discovered during routine maintenance checks last month, shortly before a bankruptcy court approved 21% temporary pay cuts. The union that represents mechanics and related employees called it "reckless and irresponsible" to speculate on what caused the damage.
• Earlier this month, US Airways had two instances of higher-than-usual sick calls in Philadelphia. The sick calls, along with baggage belt and computer problems, resulted in some flight delays and cancellations, says spokesman David Castelveter. Also in Philadelphia, passengers last month heard a voice on the speaker system say that, because of 21% temporary pay cuts, baggage would arrive up to an hour and a half late, according to The Philadelphia Inquirer.
Incentives at work
As workers try to adjust to the new reality, the major airlines are trying to soften the blow for their remaining workers.
Some, such as American, United and Delta, are creating programs to reward employees for superior performance. Most are also introducing profit-sharing programs. United says its incentive program is already working. The carrier has met its goals as measured by on-time performance and customer intent to fly United again in each of the past three quarters, and has paid out bonuses, says United spokeswoman Jean Medina.
But until the airlines turn losses into profits, employees can\'t count on profit sharing for bigger paychecks.
US Airways is widely considered to have the worst morale problem of its peers. It has gone to its union-represented employees for two rounds of concessions and is negotiating a third round now with mechanics, flight attendants and customer-service agents. If deals aren\'t reached, it will begin making its case Thursday in bankruptcy court to void the contracts.
To prevent sick calls during the hectic holiday period, CEO Bruce Lakefield said, the airline reinstated an incentive program that it can afford. Employees with perfect attendance through early January, and those who work peak days, will earn US Airways tickets and the chance to enter a lottery for freebies donated by vendors, such as game tickets for the NFL\'s Philadelphia Eagles and NBA\'s Charlotte Bobcats, he says.
"We\'d like to get all this behind us," Lakefield says. "When people have futures, they feel much better about morale and their personal lives."
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Cactusbusdrvr – The only thing I can see wrong with running an airline like a bus service is if you advertise it as something else. At no stage does FR or some of the other LCC’s try and sell you anything other than a shuttle service from A to B. If you want it, buy a ticket if you don’t, feel free to go elsewhere. If you cant be arsed to feed yourself before you get on board for your typical one or two hour flight, then be prepared to pay silly money for food and drink when you get on board. Its interesting though that people are voting with their credit cards and not their feet. It’s the same for employees – FR is unashamedly a non-union multi national company the same as Dell and HP and if you go to work for them then you already know what to expect. That is not to say that you have no rights cause you have. Every employee is protected by local and European employment law and can use the courts if necessary to invoke them. Some might say that that’s precisely what’s going on at FR now. If the management at FR are abusing their authority, they will be dealt with and I hope they get everything they deserve.
I’m not bitter cause I’m far too young and also have a lot more to worry about like how to service my loans. I completely accept the points you make about how employees are treated, especially pilots who have forked out so much of their own dosh only to find that they have to do it on a continuous basis. They are prodded and poked every 12 months or more and, because of the high divorce rates in the industry, have to keep current on everything from a washing machine to a 737. But I don’t see many posts from this category of pilot complaining that the industry owes them a living. All I see are the same old whinges from the pampered brigade who are now trying to circle the wagons as their cartel is being endangered – the laugh is that they are now trying to fend off the challenge from the sector they helped create.
I also totally disagree that unions exist because of bad management. There are tons of examples where unions co exist with management and the results are usually good. Our own Celtic Tiger owes a huge amount to the cooperation of the unions. The turn around in Aer Lingus was brought about exclusively through the cooperation of the unions and it must pain them now to see they are given very little credit for it. You can have all the business plans in the world, copied from as many successful business models as you like, but without cooperation from the work force you may as well fill the paper dispensers in the loo with it. Which takes me neatly back to FR. To keep their costs down they must be able to project their fixed costs as far ahead as possible. Commercial airlines are kept in the air by the laws and principles of economics, NOT aerodynamics. The industry has given receivers enough work for the rest of their lives, mopping up after those who thought it was the other way around.
Your addition to your post on the morale and stress amongst employees can be attributed to almost any industry and not just an airline. But I think it is somewhat simplistic to categorise LCC’s as being part of the traditional Service Industry cause there not. Try telling the hostie that you will take your business across the street at 35000 feet. Or try telling the ticket agent that you will go elsewhere when there is only one carrier on the route you wish to travel on. Its not really the service industry is it, and in many ways that’s why they can get away with a lower lever of service than one might other wise expect . The article alludes to it briefly but I think the industry has ambushed 9/11 to justify this. Many many hotels have suffered terrorist attacks over the years resulting in the loss of life and hotels are in the service industry – when was the last time you had to walk through the front door scanner in your Y fronts. There was a time when you were asked at check in “....and where are you going today sir”. The sarcastic reply of “ … the same place as my luggage please”, used to solicit at least a fake smile (as if they haven’t heard that gag before). But now, the big red button is pushed and you are carted off for a free rectal exam. Don’t blame the LCC’s on this phenomenon. They big carriers are more than happy to use this to drive down their own standards that they know they cant maintain and remain competitive. You reap what you sow.
I’m not bitter cause I’m far too young and also have a lot more to worry about like how to service my loans. I completely accept the points you make about how employees are treated, especially pilots who have forked out so much of their own dosh only to find that they have to do it on a continuous basis. They are prodded and poked every 12 months or more and, because of the high divorce rates in the industry, have to keep current on everything from a washing machine to a 737. But I don’t see many posts from this category of pilot complaining that the industry owes them a living. All I see are the same old whinges from the pampered brigade who are now trying to circle the wagons as their cartel is being endangered – the laugh is that they are now trying to fend off the challenge from the sector they helped create.
I also totally disagree that unions exist because of bad management. There are tons of examples where unions co exist with management and the results are usually good. Our own Celtic Tiger owes a huge amount to the cooperation of the unions. The turn around in Aer Lingus was brought about exclusively through the cooperation of the unions and it must pain them now to see they are given very little credit for it. You can have all the business plans in the world, copied from as many successful business models as you like, but without cooperation from the work force you may as well fill the paper dispensers in the loo with it. Which takes me neatly back to FR. To keep their costs down they must be able to project their fixed costs as far ahead as possible. Commercial airlines are kept in the air by the laws and principles of economics, NOT aerodynamics. The industry has given receivers enough work for the rest of their lives, mopping up after those who thought it was the other way around.
Your addition to your post on the morale and stress amongst employees can be attributed to almost any industry and not just an airline. But I think it is somewhat simplistic to categorise LCC’s as being part of the traditional Service Industry cause there not. Try telling the hostie that you will take your business across the street at 35000 feet. Or try telling the ticket agent that you will go elsewhere when there is only one carrier on the route you wish to travel on. Its not really the service industry is it, and in many ways that’s why they can get away with a lower lever of service than one might other wise expect . The article alludes to it briefly but I think the industry has ambushed 9/11 to justify this. Many many hotels have suffered terrorist attacks over the years resulting in the loss of life and hotels are in the service industry – when was the last time you had to walk through the front door scanner in your Y fronts. There was a time when you were asked at check in “....and where are you going today sir”. The sarcastic reply of “ … the same place as my luggage please”, used to solicit at least a fake smile (as if they haven’t heard that gag before). But now, the big red button is pushed and you are carted off for a free rectal exam. Don’t blame the LCC’s on this phenomenon. They big carriers are more than happy to use this to drive down their own standards that they know they cant maintain and remain competitive. You reap what you sow.
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butpau,
While I don't share your view totally, I'd like to commend you on an excellently argued and written post.
What Ryanair have done is bring the competition more into line on pricing ... thankfully not on service provision (yet). Having been a frequent user of Ryanair's services for a number of years, I've had enough of clapped out seats, filthy interiors and sullen 'service'. I don't even bother checking their website anymore, secure in the knowledge that reasonable fares are available elsewhere. Even within my immediate environment, I'm not alone in having taken this 'market driven' decision.
Slan
While I don't share your view totally, I'd like to commend you on an excellently argued and written post.
What Ryanair have done is bring the competition more into line on pricing ... thankfully not on service provision (yet). Having been a frequent user of Ryanair's services for a number of years, I've had enough of clapped out seats, filthy interiors and sullen 'service'. I don't even bother checking their website anymore, secure in the knowledge that reasonable fares are available elsewhere. Even within my immediate environment, I'm not alone in having taken this 'market driven' decision.
Slan
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Michael Steiner, president of New York-based Ovation Corporate Travel, says his business clients are happy with some changes the airlines have made, such as offering more self-service kiosks. But they complain about "the loss of the personal touch."
It is interesting to note that the cost of a flight ticket from LHR-JFK isn't much more than Laker was offering in the '70s. Have costs really not increased in over 20 years, or are we seeing the Aircrew lifestyle package being dragged into line with the revenue.
Can I just add that, irrespective of a persons viewpoint on the subject, this thread contains some of the best debate I have seen on Pprune in a long time. Thank you gentlemen / ladies for maintaining the high standards this BB is reknowned for.
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Cos like it or not, Ryanair are being blatantly open and cold heartedly ruthless about what they are doing. Unfortunately a lot of airlines are trying to align themselves with FR but are tied by long standing union agreements. FR are trying to avoid unions so they themselves can dictate the terms and conditions.
Flying is no longer the reserve of the wealthy. As a result the terms and conditions of the employees cannot remain at the level they were when travelling by air had to be done in a jacket and tie.
Likewise the mystique and elitism of pilot life has been eroded over the years. Long gone are the days when only the well connected in society were admitted for pilot training. How many posts have we seen on Pprune about pilots accepting jobs on low salaries (or flying for no salary)? Pilots are now classed as mere employees, like it or not, and advancing technology on the flight deck has removed a lot of the responsibilties of flying.
Pilots have 2 choices to make. Either accept that the occupation is not of the same standing as it once was and accept reduced T&C's as a result, or fight to retain the standing. It must be accepted though that in order to retain the profession in it's historical form, the cost for travelling by air must reflect the cost of employing the workforce. This will inevitably lead to reduction in capacity, either by shrinkage or removal of airlines.
Flying is no longer the reserve of the wealthy. As a result the terms and conditions of the employees cannot remain at the level they were when travelling by air had to be done in a jacket and tie.
Likewise the mystique and elitism of pilot life has been eroded over the years. Long gone are the days when only the well connected in society were admitted for pilot training. How many posts have we seen on Pprune about pilots accepting jobs on low salaries (or flying for no salary)? Pilots are now classed as mere employees, like it or not, and advancing technology on the flight deck has removed a lot of the responsibilties of flying.
Pilots have 2 choices to make. Either accept that the occupation is not of the same standing as it once was and accept reduced T&C's as a result, or fight to retain the standing. It must be accepted though that in order to retain the profession in it's historical form, the cost for travelling by air must reflect the cost of employing the workforce. This will inevitably lead to reduction in capacity, either by shrinkage or removal of airlines.
Hi all
so the FR ramp guys have to buy their own safety equipment?? No wonder so many of them have no ear defenders on the Dublin ramp. I thought it was the employers' responsibility to provide safety apparel. Guess MoL must have missed that bit in Business school.Can't wait to see his ass in court when a newly-deafened rampie sues him for loss of hearing, like the Army deafness claims of times past....What's that I read lately about MoL sticking four -800s into Liverpool at an alleged cost of 60 million per aircraft. Funny that! I could have sworn he'd bought them for 30 mill apiece and flogged them to the Royal bank of Scotland for 48M apiece.Must have only been a rumour then.
15 grand is peanuts to Ryanair. This is about control and nothing to do with money....Is East Midlands Training the "fifth" approved FTO or is that just another rumour??
regards
TDD
so the FR ramp guys have to buy their own safety equipment?? No wonder so many of them have no ear defenders on the Dublin ramp. I thought it was the employers' responsibility to provide safety apparel. Guess MoL must have missed that bit in Business school.Can't wait to see his ass in court when a newly-deafened rampie sues him for loss of hearing, like the Army deafness claims of times past....What's that I read lately about MoL sticking four -800s into Liverpool at an alleged cost of 60 million per aircraft. Funny that! I could have sworn he'd bought them for 30 mill apiece and flogged them to the Royal bank of Scotland for 48M apiece.Must have only been a rumour then.
15 grand is peanuts to Ryanair. This is about control and nothing to do with money....Is East Midlands Training the "fifth" approved FTO or is that just another rumour??
regards
TDD
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twodeaddogs,
you say 15 grand a piece is peanuts to fr, times that by the amount of pilots and its a fortune.
I know a rampie that worked for fr,he was towing the eircell a/c which is now grounded,out of a hangar.When they disconnected the tug,the a/c rolled towards him and nearly crushed him to death because the engineers had removed the park brakes.
The a/c rolled towards a british airways 737 parked on stand ready to push. Only for him and the tug driver,the fr a/c would have reared the ba. They both threw chocks under the wheels of a moving out of control a/c.
They both reported the incident to management and the usual outcome...........WE DONT GIVE A SH*T.!!
A couple of days later it appeared in the newspaper and the only person to praise these two lads was the journalist.
"What's your point" i hear you all cry,i'll tell you;
They got away with it,as long as fr opperate,they will get away with murder or in this case,near murder.
Never again,in any shape or form would i ever work for fr again, i would rather starve than put up with the abuse they dish out,they are the most ungrateful,mean,and abusive people on the face of this earth,and i'm being nice.
you say 15 grand a piece is peanuts to fr, times that by the amount of pilots and its a fortune.
I know a rampie that worked for fr,he was towing the eircell a/c which is now grounded,out of a hangar.When they disconnected the tug,the a/c rolled towards him and nearly crushed him to death because the engineers had removed the park brakes.
The a/c rolled towards a british airways 737 parked on stand ready to push. Only for him and the tug driver,the fr a/c would have reared the ba. They both threw chocks under the wheels of a moving out of control a/c.
They both reported the incident to management and the usual outcome...........WE DONT GIVE A SH*T.!!
A couple of days later it appeared in the newspaper and the only person to praise these two lads was the journalist.
"What's your point" i hear you all cry,i'll tell you;
They got away with it,as long as fr opperate,they will get away with murder or in this case,near murder.
Never again,in any shape or form would i ever work for fr again, i would rather starve than put up with the abuse they dish out,they are the most ungrateful,mean,and abusive people on the face of this earth,and i'm being nice.
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Big Tudor
Small point of order-
No it hasn't. If anything responsibility has increased over the years , but authority has been eroded!!!
Still I would not want the thread to creep, so back on subject......
Small point of order-
and advancing technology on the flight deck has removed a lot of the responsibilties of flying
Still I would not want the thread to creep, so back on subject......
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lamina
I agree, it's not the responsibilities that have been reduced - more the skills required, that's why we don't earn as much respect. I mean, just about anyone can operate an Airbus, for example (it was carefully designed that way, wasn't it?)
I agree, it's not the responsibilities that have been reduced - more the skills required, that's why we don't earn as much respect. I mean, just about anyone can operate an Airbus, for example (it was carefully designed that way, wasn't it?)
Hi Scraglad
In real terms, 15 grand X number of -200 pilots is not a lot. Maybe two or three million. Ryanair can certainly afford it. There is probably some mechanism where they can write off the cost of pilot training against tax. This is about power and control and bringing the fight to the pilots. As someone has already said, the cost of training the pilots is built into the cost of the aircraft and can probably be written off.I'm sure any accountant on these pages can enlighten us all...if Ryanair charge you 30plus grand to get a Type, how can they do it for 15 grand? Not to mention the disruption to the schedule when you take pilots offline to hit the books/sim for a month or so....this is the usual disinformation and lies from FR. It's purely to break the back of any organised resistance. Surely, these guys on the 200s have the tightest contracts out of all the FR pilots and MoL's side are trying to break their contracts from within. Any competent contracts lawyer would send MoL packing.
regards
TDD
In real terms, 15 grand X number of -200 pilots is not a lot. Maybe two or three million. Ryanair can certainly afford it. There is probably some mechanism where they can write off the cost of pilot training against tax. This is about power and control and bringing the fight to the pilots. As someone has already said, the cost of training the pilots is built into the cost of the aircraft and can probably be written off.I'm sure any accountant on these pages can enlighten us all...if Ryanair charge you 30plus grand to get a Type, how can they do it for 15 grand? Not to mention the disruption to the schedule when you take pilots offline to hit the books/sim for a month or so....this is the usual disinformation and lies from FR. It's purely to break the back of any organised resistance. Surely, these guys on the 200s have the tightest contracts out of all the FR pilots and MoL's side are trying to break their contracts from within. Any competent contracts lawyer would send MoL packing.
regards
TDD
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Its a fact of life every airline has a fall now and then.
It will be interesting how the public react when Ryanair
has theirs.
Will the can of worms be opened by the authorities on poor
pay,rock bottom moral,minimal maintenance and training etc etc.
We will have to wait and see, but i for one wouldn't touch them with a rusty bargepole.
It will be interesting how the public react when Ryanair
has theirs.
Will the can of worms be opened by the authorities on poor
pay,rock bottom moral,minimal maintenance and training etc etc.
We will have to wait and see, but i for one wouldn't touch them with a rusty bargepole.
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I worked for Ryanair on the ramp for a while.
The front line and ramp staff themselves are the best bunch of hardworking folks you could ever meet. Everyone of us on the ramp worked like dogs every day.
The management however !! The impression we got from management was that we were lazy layabout scum. The memos winging their way up from the frequent cost saving meetings in the glorified HQ called the "Whitehouse" complaining of our attitude and lack of professionalism made that abundantly clear.
We actually had our toilets locked for approx 5 days due to the "immature" graffitti written inside. This required all rampers to walk out onto the ramp and back up into the terminal building for a p*ss for Gods sake!!! Find me any company toilet devoid of graffitti anywhere in the world. I, like most people, think its silly to write graffitti in toilets but should I be denied use of facilities because its there?
It wasnt unusual to do four or five 25 minute turnarounds back to back, and by that I mean as you push one aircraft back another is taxiing in, in total we'd do about 9 aircraft a day, sometimes up to 11 per day. Shattering rock breaking hard work every day for a little more than minimum wage.
Then there was the late shift...most of the guys finished at 10.30. There was always only 5 lads scheduled after this time. About 7 aircraft land in a 25 minute slot around 11.00 pm in Dub. Take away one guy to do toilets, one to do water and that leaves 3 lads to deal with 7 aircraft in a 25 minute time frame!! Madness, unsafe, ridiculous nightmare every night 364 times a year.
Ryanair training however stated that 2 guys were required for water and 2 for toilet servicing, however that would leave one guy to deal with 7 aircraft !!! and herein lies the crux. If you damage an aircraft while doing toilets/water (which has happened due to the hazards of reversing the trucks at night with no one to guide you) Ryanair ask you where your second man was and "Hey didnt we tell you in training its a 2 man job". However if on the night you insist on a second man youre told to get real and do the job or else...hence theyre covered on all fronts.
This "real world versus training world" difference is rampant in Ryanair. The ground equipment in Ryanair Dub is diabolical. To make all the equipment the ground staff use 100% safe would cost a fortune. Theyre willing to keep letting accidents happen as a result of bad equipment as its the cheaper option.
I know there are some court cases coming up regarding ex-ramp staff but as usual im sure these will be settled on the court steps much to Ryanairs delight. Someday I hope someone will take them all the way inside.
I only saw operations from my lowly position but if this mentality exists in other departments its only a matter of time before something serious happens. I hate saying that but alas its what I believe, having experienced first hand this companys attitude towards its workers.
The front line and ramp staff themselves are the best bunch of hardworking folks you could ever meet. Everyone of us on the ramp worked like dogs every day.
The management however !! The impression we got from management was that we were lazy layabout scum. The memos winging their way up from the frequent cost saving meetings in the glorified HQ called the "Whitehouse" complaining of our attitude and lack of professionalism made that abundantly clear.
We actually had our toilets locked for approx 5 days due to the "immature" graffitti written inside. This required all rampers to walk out onto the ramp and back up into the terminal building for a p*ss for Gods sake!!! Find me any company toilet devoid of graffitti anywhere in the world. I, like most people, think its silly to write graffitti in toilets but should I be denied use of facilities because its there?
It wasnt unusual to do four or five 25 minute turnarounds back to back, and by that I mean as you push one aircraft back another is taxiing in, in total we'd do about 9 aircraft a day, sometimes up to 11 per day. Shattering rock breaking hard work every day for a little more than minimum wage.
Then there was the late shift...most of the guys finished at 10.30. There was always only 5 lads scheduled after this time. About 7 aircraft land in a 25 minute slot around 11.00 pm in Dub. Take away one guy to do toilets, one to do water and that leaves 3 lads to deal with 7 aircraft in a 25 minute time frame!! Madness, unsafe, ridiculous nightmare every night 364 times a year.
Ryanair training however stated that 2 guys were required for water and 2 for toilet servicing, however that would leave one guy to deal with 7 aircraft !!! and herein lies the crux. If you damage an aircraft while doing toilets/water (which has happened due to the hazards of reversing the trucks at night with no one to guide you) Ryanair ask you where your second man was and "Hey didnt we tell you in training its a 2 man job". However if on the night you insist on a second man youre told to get real and do the job or else...hence theyre covered on all fronts.
This "real world versus training world" difference is rampant in Ryanair. The ground equipment in Ryanair Dub is diabolical. To make all the equipment the ground staff use 100% safe would cost a fortune. Theyre willing to keep letting accidents happen as a result of bad equipment as its the cheaper option.
I know there are some court cases coming up regarding ex-ramp staff but as usual im sure these will be settled on the court steps much to Ryanairs delight. Someday I hope someone will take them all the way inside.
I only saw operations from my lowly position but if this mentality exists in other departments its only a matter of time before something serious happens. I hate saying that but alas its what I believe, having experienced first hand this companys attitude towards its workers.
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Link to the relevant victimization legislation as mentioned on Page 1 if interested.
Pages 5, 6 I believe refers
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/b.../2004/A404.pdf
Pages 5, 6 I believe refers
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/b.../2004/A404.pdf
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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It really doesn't seem a very clever way to run an airline. Somebody once said that a Company gets the Union it deserves. A good employer really shouldn't worry about pilots joining a union; although he might ask why they think it is necessary.
Thread Starter
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Quote......... This "real world versus training world" difference is rampant in Ryanair. The ground equipment in Ryanair Dub is diabolical. To make all the equipment the ground staff use 100% safe would cost a fortune. Theyre willing to keep letting accidents happen as a result of bad equipment as its the cheaper option
Aint it the truth teroc. The famous investigation meeting has to be the best. When you have a accident on the ramp you write a report you are then called in to the said meeting. Questioned on what happened, then two or three days later you are told what they think happened always the fault of the rampie. Then you are given a written warning and thats it no come back no legal help is allowed only a workmate may come with you to the meeting. WHY DO WE WORK THERE you may ask, once it was a good place to work, but now with crap equipment thats is a danger to everybody in or around it, it's damned if you do damned if you don't
Aint it the truth teroc. The famous investigation meeting has to be the best. When you have a accident on the ramp you write a report you are then called in to the said meeting. Questioned on what happened, then two or three days later you are told what they think happened always the fault of the rampie. Then you are given a written warning and thats it no come back no legal help is allowed only a workmate may come with you to the meeting. WHY DO WE WORK THERE you may ask, once it was a good place to work, but now with crap equipment thats is a danger to everybody in or around it, it's damned if you do damned if you don't
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You are all deluding yourselves folks
every last one of ya.
It will never change ever
nobody will stand up to them
not
IAA
AAIB
CAA
JAA
JAR
Fianna Fail
Dept. transport
Siptu
IALPA
BALPA
Bertie
Cullen
no one
Aer lingus now copy them
Aer Arran now copy them
Citijet... easyjet... jet blue...
I'm boring myself
IT WILL NEVER END
EVEN WHEN THE FIRST HULL IS LOST
THEY WILL NEVER FACE THE PENALTY
there is none!!
every last one of ya.
It will never change ever
nobody will stand up to them
not
IAA
AAIB
CAA
JAA
JAR
Fianna Fail
Dept. transport
Siptu
IALPA
BALPA
Bertie
Cullen
no one
Aer lingus now copy them
Aer Arran now copy them
Citijet... easyjet... jet blue...
I'm boring myself
IT WILL NEVER END
EVEN WHEN THE FIRST HULL IS LOST
THEY WILL NEVER FACE THE PENALTY
there is none!!
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A pilots 'union' you say, well...
...the latest from ATWonline says Ryanair is on a roll, and no apparent shortage of pilots on the horizon either.
<<<Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary, speaking at the Future of Air Transport Conference in London, said Europe and Ryanair are nowhere close to reaching the saturation point of LCC service. He said that in 10 years when Ryanair's passenger load gets to 100 million a year, "we'll be straining around the edges." Confident of Ryanair's low costs, O'Leary said that if oil gets to $60 a barrel, "we'll be the only profitable airline in Europe. If it gets to $70 a barrel, we'll be the only breakeven airline in Europe and probably the only airline in Europe." He added that the entire Ryanair fleet will be equipped with inflight entertainment systems by next March or April.
Separately, Ryanair said it carried 2.197 million passengers in Nov., up 10% on the year-ago period. Load factor lost 1 point to 82%. For the rolling 12 months ended Nov. 30, passenger numbers totaled 26.4 million and load factor averaged 83%. The carrier said 30,000 Volare passengers stranded after the Italian airline's collapse have taken up Ryanair's offer of free tickets on its international routes. It also said it will host an open recruitment day Dec. 9 in Venice, Volare’s main base, for Volare pilots.>>>
Think the guys had better pony up 'd cash for training, pronto.
<<<Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary, speaking at the Future of Air Transport Conference in London, said Europe and Ryanair are nowhere close to reaching the saturation point of LCC service. He said that in 10 years when Ryanair's passenger load gets to 100 million a year, "we'll be straining around the edges." Confident of Ryanair's low costs, O'Leary said that if oil gets to $60 a barrel, "we'll be the only profitable airline in Europe. If it gets to $70 a barrel, we'll be the only breakeven airline in Europe and probably the only airline in Europe." He added that the entire Ryanair fleet will be equipped with inflight entertainment systems by next March or April.
Separately, Ryanair said it carried 2.197 million passengers in Nov., up 10% on the year-ago period. Load factor lost 1 point to 82%. For the rolling 12 months ended Nov. 30, passenger numbers totaled 26.4 million and load factor averaged 83%. The carrier said 30,000 Volare passengers stranded after the Italian airline's collapse have taken up Ryanair's offer of free tickets on its international routes. It also said it will host an open recruitment day Dec. 9 in Venice, Volare’s main base, for Volare pilots.>>>
Think the guys had better pony up 'd cash for training, pronto.
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less pax
Ryanair carried less pax in november than oct.
this is normal as there is 1 less day.
what is not normal is the fall to be about 11%.
If there numbers are true they have reduced capacity to keep the load factors up. I would have expected capacity to rise as they have more 738s.
this is normal as there is 1 less day.
what is not normal is the fall to be about 11%.
If there numbers are true they have reduced capacity to keep the load factors up. I would have expected capacity to rise as they have more 738s.