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Report on 1999 B757 crash at Girona finally published

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Report on 1999 B757 crash at Girona finally published

Old 18th Sep 2004, 07:55
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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411A you are not short of a few opinions. It might help if you reflected a bit on what is being said, especially after others provide you with hints as to how you might view things a bit differently and, hence, maybe even learn something new. For instance, immediately after your post containing the words,
Report for duty, depart from the UK, fly for 3 hours...and arrive knackered?
Kansasw replied attempting to point out what was probably a major misunderstanding on your part - do you really believe that the implication was that a three hour flight is itself fatiguing? – and asking you a question as to why you take the line you do. But you just keep on going, whether it be fuel or fatigue, or whatever, asserting (rather than explaining) a rather narrow point of view and occasionally implying that those who do not agree are just mind-bogglingly silly. In an earlier post you even referred to the commander of the flight in question as being a “clown”, which is infinitely more telling of you than of him. For what it is worth, I found that gratuitously offensive.

May I commend to you the post by Dogs_ears_up on September 17th. He is not a pilot. Yet he wrote a balanced, sensible and entirely comprehensible piece in a very tactful manner. Yet more to the point, he seems to have no problem in taking the salient features from the accident report, understanding the contextual factors and having an appreciation of the human dimension (often lacking in these discussions). I think his take on – and grasp of - what took place is excellent. He also makes clear his absence of piloting qualification (in contrast to those contributors who seem to feel that to have a licence or to have flown into the same airport gives their opinions greater weight).

You are now doing with fatigue what you did earlier with fuel. Which is to miss what is actually being said. How come the non-pilot got it, but you don’t?
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 08:40
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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15 mins of extra gas is an illusion. With TS all over the place, 30 - 60 mins extra should be the choice for a captain with over 16000 hours. Then the pressure would be off.
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 09:30
  #123 (permalink)  
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411A Fatigue is cumulative and comes about over a long period of night flights ,early starts etc etc and all I said was I took this into account when loading fuel to any destination where the forecast gave a possibilty that on arrival a hold or diversion was likely. I thus avoided the " must land at any price" which is a very unpleasant situation to find oneself in.

I always found it difficult to get good rest between night flights whether in a Hotel or at Home but 411A we all know you are super human. This does not in any way excuse this accident or make it acceptable in any sense for that reason alone.

Over the years when taking over an aircraft I have shuddered at times to see how little fuel some people arrive with.
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 11:06
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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There is no difference between losing visual reference due to fog patches or the light system suddenly going U/S as such there is no reason to blame the Spanish authorities.

And to be honest, reading this tread, I am indeed worried about the standards of he British pilot certification process.

Even if you are at 60 % of your abilities you should still be able to perform.

However this implies that certification standards must be above what is normaly required.
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 11:18
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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atse,

Seems to me that I understand what went on at Girona somewhat better than others...at least from some of the comments here.

A few say 'fatigue' was an issue.
If it was, the pilot should not have made the flight in the first place.
Either you're fit or you are not...not all that much in between.
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Fuel state has been covered before. Certainly not enough for the intended flight, concerning the weather anticipated.

I simply cannot understand the 'press on regardless' ideas that some pilots have. A Commander with the experience level that the ill-fated flight had should have absolutely known better.
Then, to top it off, he grabs the controls from the First Officer, and tries for the dirty dive, which is very bad news in any jet transport aircraft.
It would appear that his handling skills were poor as well. Too much 'automatics' at work perhaps? You be the judge.

As I said before, a lesson for all of how not to fly an aircraft.
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 11:49
  #126 (permalink)  
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Whether it is a lesson in how not to fly an aircraft or not, is it really an exercise in character assassination for the Captain and F/O concerned?
Is it really that far fetched to believe that the skipper could have been fatigued on a short sector? It is considered good practice when driving to take a break after 2 hours. If 2 hours is considered a limit for driving a vehicle then surely it is equal if not worse when flying. Also, what was cumulative fatigue effects of the roster leading up to the incident. Consecutive night flights with interrupted or low quality rest in between? I'm sure I can't be the only one here who has embarked on a journey feeling fully alert and capable of remaining alert, only to arrive at my destination with little recollection of how I arrived there!

411A I'm sure there are many people here who could benfit from your experience. Perhaps if it wasn't delivered in such an agreesive tone more would listen!
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 12:29
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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I stand by 411A on this one.

If you do not say it clearly then you are missing the point.

Has nothing to do with aggression, but with the fact that the reader is to sensitive and/or not capable of accepting a simple truth.

I have seen it on the tread on BA approach techniques were their SOP forces them to consider ever approach as a CAT III using all automatics.

I have seen it with British contractors all over the place.

UK airlines do not encourage their pilots to fly the real stick and rudder and they pay a price for that. The same has happened at KLM.

There is a good reason why JAR has introduced the skill test, unfortunately they did not require to do it without the Autopilot.
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 14:10
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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411A - almost every post you've ever written seems intent on generating ire through unbalanced and ill-founded pronouncements. From what you say it is transparently obvious that you are not and have never been a professional pilot in any capacity beyond Microsoft's Flight Sim. Why not take the time to read the report or get someone to read it to you and let them explain the technical aspects. The Captain did not grab the controls from the F/O and execute a dirty dive. As for the undoubted fatigue issues - again you demonstrate a total lack of empathy (and therefore past experience) of the job. The crew were towards the end of a busy summer season operating from an undermanned base where they would have been working 800-900 hours in the year with poor rostering and switching between earlies and deep nights with little variation other than to increase circadian disorder. They were on the third of a deep-night series having had long sectors on the previous two nights with an accumulated sleep debt from a busy season. Until you've flown it, you cannot appreciate it - I have and I do.

The accident report has a bias and does not present an objective assessment of a horrible night and a remarkable number of variables and factors; of which not all are addressed. We would all fly it differently now that we have the benefit of exacting hindsight. I am sure that even in your warm understair cupboard, playing your flight simulator, you have made errors, albeit slight that begin to accumulate. No one is perfect, all of us make mistakes, however the dreadful fact is that an aircraft crashed and we can all (you excepted), as professionals keen on continuous improvement, learn from this.
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 14:42
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Cap56, I just love the ?intentional? irony ...
If you do not say it clearly then you are missing the point
Now, what exactly does that sentence mean? (And, if I may say so, your entire post is not entirely clear, beyond your wish to bash entire groups of pilots).
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 21:06
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Can anyone see a good reason why the design of modern commercial jets allows the combined use of speedbrake and higher than idle forward thrust?
The Cali? 757 and this one were both misconfigured at some stage in their flight.
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 22:13
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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At nearly 2 posts per day, 411A seems to have a lot of time on his hands.

Forgive me for being sceptical, but I doubt your professional competency to post anything that should be taken seriously.
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Old 18th Sep 2004, 22:34
  #132 (permalink)  
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fish

I'd guess 411a was just a perfect pilot once upon a time when airlines were run by gentlemen who treated pilots like human beings instead of machines.

I'd sure hate to be in a flight deck with him.

Can anyone see a good reason why the design of modern commercial jets allows the combined use of speedbrake and higher than idle forward thrust?
They don't.

Boeings however do.
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Old 19th Sep 2004, 01:17
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Arkroyal:

Umn... This was a boeing flying around with the speedbrake extrended until they get a master caution for extending the flaps beyond 20 with the named brakes extended..

shlittlenellie:

My ol friend and chap:

We're from the same "neck of the woods", not geographically but airline wise, I do know there is a certain pressure for crews to carry "more or less" what the flightplan says.. (prefarbly less if you listen to the directors in hannover)
I realise that the evening was far from perfect but it was made horribly clear to the crew what they were facing once they get down there..

It seems an extrodinarlily poor decision to carry only 15 mins of extra fuel when destination and all (I say ALL) diversions carry the same sort of weather..

I will refrain from getting into the discussion of applying full nose down elevator when loss of visual contact..
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Old 19th Sep 2004, 01:29
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Can't read...?

shlittlenellie,

Put on your specs and read.
Mentioned before that I personally have done 3 straight years of Med flights from the UK (nearly all from MAN)...mostly late night/very early morning departures.
It's not that difficult surely...even for you, and if it is you need to find another job.

Many pilots from UK airlines drag out the 'fatigue' issue at the slightest excuse.
To them I can only say...when you applied to the airline, you asked for work, did you not?

These types, that cry 'fatigue' at the drop of a hat, don't really deserve the job, ie: move over and let someone else take your place if you are so dis-satisfied.

In short, grow up.
You are a big boy now. Act like one.

Oh yes, one last thought. Hand fly a bit more, to keep proficient.
Just might save your backside one night.
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Old 19th Sep 2004, 09:50
  #135 (permalink)  
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411A, are you in the slightest conscious of how this kind of diatribe comes across? Opinionated, offensive, aggressive and negative are the words that come to my mind. If you actually have a real message, it is lost in the distastefulness and arrogance of how you say it. But looking at your posts, it is not clear to me that you have any message, beyond demonstrating a highly questionable ability to read and understand.
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Old 19th Sep 2004, 12:41
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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411A (again),
Three years operating to the Med - phwoarr and from MAN too - my hero. Can I just say that I really would appreciate a signed poster of your good self, preferably reeking of your favourite aftershave and dripping with the testosterone that you clearly have in over-abundant supply. If there were more people like you on the flightdeck of modern airliners - well, we'd most definitely be in a far safer, completely objective decision making and less macho, he-man, you tug my beard and I'll bite your testicles sort of world.

One last thought before I leave this debate in your far more capable hands (in that big dream of yours, did you finally lose your licence after the twentieth crash?)... you have over-stated your Med flying experience and I look at three years and consider that it was a comparable length to the Med experience of the F/O that you so roundly criticised for having a lack of experience of such operations. So long and be careful with that simulator: at least it's single pilot operation and I suspect that's where your main skills lie.
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Old 19th Sep 2004, 13:13
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Angry

411a says "The guy is a clown, and simply does not belong in charge of a jet transport aircraft."

Come on mods, is this really deemed allowable, especially considering other very mild threads are censored!

I think the old saying is that opinions are like @rseholes, everyone has one. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure which part of that saying reflects 411a. Answers on a postcard!
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Old 19th Sep 2004, 13:58
  #138 (permalink)  
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411A says hand fly more and be proficient. As he claims to have done 3 summers flying from MAN in the IT market he should well know that one thing UK Charter Pilots do lots of is hand flying as most of the airfields we go are procedural without radar and without ILS .

Autopilot not much use is such places as Iraklion,Kos Rhodes.Lanzarote ,Furteventura,Mikonos, Samos.Santorini,Funchal,Gibraltar to name just a few.

Since I left the UK Charter market to fly for an international long haul airline I have never done a real circuit and every approach has been radar vectored to an ILS with just a few exceptions such as Perth R/W 03, the Essendon arrival to R/W 34 MEL and DPS R/W 09 and the old HKG ILS to Visual.
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Old 19th Sep 2004, 14:34
  #139 (permalink)  

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411A. I really am at a loss. As I understand it you have an company in the USA. You previously worked in the Far East; Singapore if I remember, and you also flew for an IT operation out of Manchester. It really is about time you gave us a full resume of your experience so that we can weigh up how much credence we put on your views.

So that you know I am not a Walter Mitty pilot. I have recently retired after 35 years and 21,000 hrs in the industry and worked in the Middle East and for a UK Charter company.

As a matter of record, I flew with a F/O the night after the Gerona accident. On that night he was flying to Palma and told me that the whole of the east coast of Spain was one large area of thunderstorm activity and the closest airport that was open that night was Palma. We can all have views about whether the crew should have carried more fuel and whether fatigue was a factor. However in the final analysis I cannot say that I would have got it right that night, I am surprised that you can be so sure of how you could do. Finally as a matter of record, the Captain didn’t grab control from the F/O, he took control from the F/O at TOD because of the weather at Gerona; or have I missed something?
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Old 19th Sep 2004, 15:30
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sky9

37 years, of which 30 years is heavy 3/4 engine Command, and 23,000+ hours, just for the record, with ops in Europe, Middle East, Africa, Asia, Australia, and trans Atlantic/Pacific.
You can add to this list exec flying as well as Senior Training Captain (10 years) and fleet management positions.
Oh yes, all the jet transport flying was in two types only, the B707 and Lockheed TriStar.
Not exactly a newby...as clearly you aren't either.

Yes, you are certainly correct in your statement about whether you (or indeed anyone else) could have 'got it right' considering the circumstances on the particular evening in question
but would it not have been a better idea for the Captain to have the First Officer continue with the flying, so he could keep a closer eye on the situation?
I have personally line trained at least 50 First Officers, and have found that nearly all can fly a very accurate ILS or non-precision approach. If they lack any particular skill, it is handling the windshear/strong crosswind types of situations simply because they have not the experience and exposure that the Commander has had.

OK, so this Commander decided to launch off to a destination with very little extra fuel (considering the weather in the general area) for reasons unknown, and decided at TOD to become a one man show.
Doesn't look very reasonable or professional to me.

How about you?

And for those that think that I am being overly critical, just look at the end result of the flight in question.

If this Commander had a bit more concern, extra fuel would have been uplifted, so that more options would have been available, but as it was, he did not, so ended up off the runway.

He, his crew and passengers were very lucky it was not far worse.
This clearly, in my opinion, was an accident that could have been prevented if a more reasonable decision process had been applied.
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