Ryanair and BALPA/IALPA

[BEagle]

Hardly came over as an airline executive, more like a silly schoolboy with jokes no-one found amusing.

[Maxiumus]

The Irish Times has today revealed FR pilots are to set up their own union, representing all bases, with links to BALPA and IALPA. According to the report, more than half of FR pilots are already in BALPA/IALPA.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

This is the article:

23 September 2004
Irish Times

A number of pilots at Ryanair are preparing to establish their own association through which they can negotiate with the low-cost airlines on terms and conditions.

The Irish Times has learned that the new association, to be called the Ryanair European Pilots Association, will have links with the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) and the Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) and will be supported by the European Cockpit Association.

The association is preparing to launch a website for members who will be offered free membership for the first six months.

It is understood that pilots will also retain their membership of the other pilot unions.

Pilot sources suggest that the move to establish a Europe-wide association is an attempt to create a wide forum that will span various EU states and represent pilots from Ryanair's 11 bases.

Last month, the European Transport Workers' Federation, which has been studying Ryanair's work practices, launched a Europe-wide campaign agains the airline and has established a website where staff can post their grievances.

Ryanair chief executive Mr O'Leary has stated publicly that the airline has no objection to any of its people joining a trade union.

Yesterday, a Ryanair spokeswoman said Ryanair's pilots were the best paid in Europe and were unlikely to seek IALPA's help "to get them lower pay and inferior pay increases and job losses that IALPA members members in Aer Lingus had suffered".

Last month Ryanair's head of operations, Mr David O'Brien, had an information flyer compiled by IALPA and BALPA removed from the pilot's pigeon holes, according to pilot sources at the airline.

He subsequently wrote to all of its Irish pilots to warn them that this campaign "has already put your careers at risk yet again".

More than half of Ryanair's pilots have joined BALPA and IALPA, according to the unions.

[BEagle]

Interesting that, with the FTSE 100 now some 2.7% above where it stood in January 2004, Ryanair's shares have fallen by 44.2% over the same period.....

Ah - but paying €7 to watch Ryanair's IFE will soon turn that round. To be sure, to be sure.....

[Dishdasha]

Ryanair Cancellations

cancellations yep - FR908 (ORK-STN) on 22 August cancelled because the incoming a/c diverted to shannon, all other inbounds landed and the ceiling looked to be 5000ft. All the PAX could see the aircraft circling overhead

Disgraceful behaviour - all the pax or 'self loading freight' LOL were bused to shannon.

I mean if pilots are so pissed at Ryanair mgmt. they should leave and join someone else --

lots of folks would love to do this job -- it's still one of the best out there - even if you do have to fly to Cork/Ballygarvan from time to time.

Put pulling fake diverts on your employer is just plain wrong

[bacardi walla]

Do you know the real reason behind this divert? I guess not. My deduction is that when this flight made an approach, it was below limits and no doubt the a/c had minimum fuel onboard and diverted as a result. It ain't rocket science. Get the facts and then publish it. If no facts available, keep quiet. Do you honestly think a crew would divert just for the sake of p155ing off RYR management ?

[Aloue]

Dishdasha, rather than use your lightening powers of deduction to come up with a rather peculiar (if not insulting) explanation, perhaps you would do everyone a favour and try the following. Contact Ryanair, tell them your story and ask them for an explanation. When you get it, come back here and ask for any clarifications you may need. (When you post again you might also explain why you have registered on PPRUNE in September to complain about a flight that took place 4 weeks ago in October. Why the delay?).

Finding out the facts might be tedious and a lot more difficult than coming up with the kind of nonsense you have posted about Ryanair pilots (without even producing any evidence
for your bizarre notion!).

[Dishdasha]

facts

well you know, fact is the a/c diverted on pilot discretion, and he made a clearly wrong call, even the tower were very surprised.

you see the problem is that whining in a public forum, you have a built in assumption that the actions of all your 'professional colleagues' is above reproach, and that all of their motives are above board - especially on this board.

well I have news for you - they aren't

I remember personally sitting in Air UK offices at Stansted, with senior Air UK management casting asperions on Ryanair safety and on the professionalism of the IAA.

They laughed out loud at the opinion that FR would be bigger than UK at Stansted ever!

Yeah MOL is a bit of an idiot because he probably doesn't realise that some of the sychophantic management copy his bullying style in inappropriate fashion - I'm sure that will change soon, and that erosion of T&Cs will be spotted to be incompatible with running a non union shop.

on the other hand I'm sure that you've all figured out by now that if the Union get to negotiate for the pilot group, that 'hardliners' will ground the airline AS SOON AS POSSIBLE

Some of the rubbish here by 'Professional Pilots' is massively out of order, so you've got to choose I guess between the devil you know (MOL and his out of control flunkies) and the devil you don't (Syndicalist Union Flag carrier protectionism)

Its up to you

[lamina]

"well you know, fact is the a/c diverted on pilot discretion, and he made a clearly wrong call,-"

I've seen some ridiculous statments on this board but surely this takes the cake. Not too sure as to the runway length at ORK but I suspect an anti-skid failure or numerous other minor technical failures could involve a prudent divertion. Bottom line is we don't know and I really don't care!

Now back to the original topic.

[atse]

Dishdasha from the content of your post I suspect that you really don't need anybody to remind you that - as the warning at the bottom of each PPRUNE page makes clear - some of the posters here are not what they seem.

You are not what you seemed from your first post. You have now added some interesting information and propaganda. What you did not chose to to do was to provide any evidence for your slur.

Unless you can support your claims it should be "back to the topic" as lamina says. I join with lamina in hoping that nobody provides you with any encouragement to start up a new anti-Ryanair pilot rant, regardless of the provocation you offer.

[Jack The Lad]

Dish Dash

I have to concur with the quite rightly 'outraged' responses of the FR pilots. Some of them may appear 'daft' to some of us here in connection with their fetish to be seduced by the likes of BALPA, but I believe them one and all to be fundamentally 'professional pilots'. If they circled and then diverted, than I'm sure they had a damn good and explainable reason to do so. Please don't demean the professionalism of these guys.

They may get a bit hot under the collar about MOL and all, but that is a different issue.

How the F%^& do you know they made the wrng call? How the F%$£"* would ATC know they made the wrong call?

Dish Dash, keep the comments relevant please?

[lod]

Maybe something to do with it only being CAT 1 in ork.

[delwy]

Dishdasha says,

Yeah MOL is a bit of an idiot because he probably doesn't realise that some of the sychophantic management copy his bullying style in inappropriate fashion

- maybe dishdasha could clarify for us what part of the style in question is appropriate?

[Dishdasha]

Appropriate Bullying

Its quiet OK for MOL to 'bully' his senior management, thats what they sign up for, and they should - although they often don't - have the nouse to shout back - thats the real weakness at FR - poor sub MOL management

Its inappropriate for any of them to bully more junior staff, doesn't make sense - and is clearly sign of a personality disorder
particularly cabin crew, I'm surprised that flight crew get so het up about it.

however a CEO shouting at this senior group is often appropriate! O'Leary really doesn't take himself seriously enough to believe his own BS, although I guess he doesn't suffer fools gladly.

[GGV]

Unacceptable bullying

You have an interesting take on bullying Dishdasha. It also raises the suspicion that you do not really know what the experience of bullying is actually like. One way or another the defence of "acceptable bullying" you present would be unlikely to work in a tribunal, should you ever have the opportunity to try it!

[chikenscanfly]

Enough sitting aroud collecting dust

Dishdasha,

I feel you may have a somewhat naieve view on the management style that takes place at RYR.

MOL does not just scream, he fires. If any manager is found to have done something which cost the company any amount in loss of revenue by an honest mistake, that person is very likely to be fired that very moment.

If your job is on the line, youll threaten those beneath you to keep yours. MOL is simply abusing human nature of self preservation to squeeze out every last ounce of what he believes is efficiency.

Unfortunately, efficiency tends to degrade when individuals fear responsibility.

And Jack, before I forget. Thank you for raising several important issues regarding the obviously far better improved state of the FR pilot, especially in comparison to our MYT colleagues - I'm sure they take charm in your pity.

But tell me this; If so many people are queing to join RYR, then why are our new experienced colleagues without 737 experience?

As for MYT - is not BALPA arranging a deal with management?

[Jack The Lad]

Chickens; You're welcome

Have a look, as no doubt you have, at the MYT post, and once that awful mess has been sorted and experienced pilots do loose their jobs, you can count on the fact that many of them will be jostling for yours!

Sad fact of life; maybe you don't value your job, but someone without one will snap it up in a minute. Sad fact, but it is a 'dog eat dog' world out there, which you may find out very soon.

As for BALPA, just look at the disarray that MYT's whole debacle has caused/failed to rectify. You now have a situation where pilot is pitched against pilot and a completely divided pilot group. It's very sad, but it proves what I said to you a long while back. You can hang yourself out to dry as a martyr if you like, but don't expect the support you are trying to 'rally' here, when the chips are down.

I still say that it is a bitter irony that you guys are willing to take the chance of 'hanging yourselves' for the want to be recognised by BALPA, when others around you are proving that BALPA can and does seal your fate without consultation and are resigning. Worse than that, they will eagerly take your money to help them achieve that! (a fool and his money, springs to mind). Maybe fast women and slow greyhounds would be an entirely more satisfying (and healthy) pursuit! I know which I would prefer.

How many instances do you really need to witness, before the truth 'smacks you straight between the eyes'? Like mine, I bet your Dad told you many times that to do certain things would only cause you personal grief and anguish, but what did you do?

'I told you so' doesn't really help, after the event.

Now, I'll retire again gracefully to my armchair for a while and watch the sorry mess unfold.

Chickens, feel free to call on my advice any time you need it

[Aloue]

Jack de Lad. You certainly don't sound like a pilot. In fact you sound like the opposite on close reading.

Are you even a pilot? Are you perhaps from Mullingar? Any chance of an honest answer to these questions?

[chikenscanfly]

advice

Jack,

I've been in the business long enough now to not need to call on the advice of those whose allegiance is to say the least questionable.
As for my paternal routes, they are far beyond the boundries of your comment. My father was a wise enough man to not impose limits on his belief in me.

The amount of responsibility you place on BALPA for the events taking place at MYT only underlines your attempts to hold back the already overwhelming tides against your favour.
MYT overexpanded. Without the adequate support nor increased loads to fill the extra seats, the events of current became inevitable. It is silly to place blame on BALPA for this. BALPA managed themselves as a fair-minded mediator between the company and the pilot body, organising the best way that suited both parties to retrench the excess employees.

I won't even begin to describe how this would happen otherwise in RYR.

BALPA isn't a way to keep our jobs forever. Only a fool would believe this. But BALPA is a way to hang on to what dignity and benefits we have left, before more is taken away and we are forced to pack up and go.

Understand that intimidation can only go so far.

Yes, there is no doubt others will continue to fill the gap. But as time progresses at what level of experience? With what background?
The cuts of today will mean the loss of Ryanair tommorow.
Perhaps there are enough people left who have hope in this company that they worked hard to build, and would rather see it succeed than fed to the dogs.

The pilots at MYT are not dog eat dog, Jack. Perhaps if you would turn your chair around in that office of yours you would see that the overwhelming majority of individuals do not turn on each other for their own benefit.

The chips are down. And fancy that it appears that already over 50% of the company have risen to become martyrs for the cause.
And this with the support of the international transport federation...

I only hope my posting here would have provided others the appropriate couter insight against your banter. I wouldn't want you to think I wasted so much of my time solely for your personal enjoyment.

Furthermore, best of luck recruiting MYT guys through their own forum.

[chikenscanfly]

Quiet

Now that this forum has also turned to silence, one wonders what the next step on either side will be