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Pilot arrested at Manchester (merged)

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Pilot arrested at Manchester (merged)

Old 12th Sep 2004, 19:38
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ILS

I agree with much of what you say and yes, IF the limit set for pilots is VALID, then it should equally apply to any other profession or occupation that holds others lives potentially at risk due to the impairmnet of the operator, due alchohol. That would extend the range of relevant professions quite substantially. And why not? You are absolutely correct.

Whether the limit set for pilots is right or too severe, I can't answer that, but we do know what the rules are and we should find out how we can ensure we abide by those rules. I can sympathise with those that have marginally broken the rules, but in many cases, the limits have been 'well breached', way beyond being able to claim a bit of ignorance or latitude.

Basil, my comment about 'we have all done it before' was said for effect. My point is that things have changed dramatically in recent times and as I have said before, compare the analogy of drink driving. 30 years ago, it was considered 'good sport' if you didn't get caught. Now it is, quite rightly accepted as totally unacceptable social behaviour that risks lives and is worthy of a jail sentence. I don't know how old you are, but ask your Dad if he ever did drink and drive! He would be an exception if he said NO.

Given the changes in limits for pilots and the now high profile nature of the offence, to keep on ignoring it and risk getting caught must be seen as the height of stupidity or represent a very serious individual problem that is out of control. In either case, the individual is a risk to society.

An accountant can get away with it; all he risks is his professional indemnity when he c*cks up. A pilot, bus driver, car driver, train driver, you name it, risks lives as do surgeons and all manner of other professionals.

I stand by what I said; no-one can claim ignorance of the rules.
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Old 12th Sep 2004, 19:59
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JTL

You are correct in what you say. But if rules are applied then it should be equal.
I'll be having words with the auto pilot in the morning to check. No doubt it will have been up most of the night with one of the CVR's and had too much electrical input. Probably over the limit for this but not regulated yet.
Ah, another point, what about the computer programmers who get pissed and miss something. Always remember the computer is only as good as the person who programs it. If a pilot is above the new limit then he will lose his career, if a programmer is above the limit and there is an accident then they will not. I know the systems are checked but "one day".
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Old 12th Sep 2004, 20:27
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ILS 119.5

You want the rules applied equaly.

I agree with you, however you have avoided my question. How do you feel about them been applied equaly the other way? Or are aircrew more equal than others?

If the rules are to be applied equaly then exceed the speed limit on your day off....and lose your job. Other occupations are under far greater restrictions than you are and in most cases for far less good reason.

By the way, commit adultary in the Forces and in some circumstances in the Police and guess what ...you get sacked. Do you? So its not equal is it, nor if you answer honestly would you like it to be.

I agree with you up to a point, although differant occupations require a differant level of sobriaty. Parliament decided, presumably after medical advice (probably not taken down the pub) that the limits under this act should apply. Should the same limit apply to say a doctor doing paperwork? Or a Police Officer doing communications duties in a Police Station? Probably not. But a doctor operating on someone should have zero alcohol, and a Police Officer on Armed patrol the same should apply.
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Old 12th Sep 2004, 20:50
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OK do the rules apply to a training captain or a route check captain, they are not flying the plane. I know for a fact that my dad had to fly a plane because the the skipper was not competent to fly into a certain airport, he was, and landed safely. EGKK if you want to know and on a tristar. Anyway, my point is, all professions, (with responsibility for human life)should be regulated as ours is. No prisoners. If we are going to be and are the best then lets keep it that way.
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Old 12th Sep 2004, 21:25
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By the way, commit adultary in the Forces and in some circumstances in the Police and guess what ...you get sacked. Do you? So its not equal is it, nor if you answer honestly would you like it to be.
Err... I'm afraid this is not true.

Sorry to dampen the party, but perhaps you'd care to provide another example?

CC
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Old 12th Sep 2004, 22:55
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Sorry I should have added if it brings either the Armed Forces or the Police into Disrepute. And yes I ahve seen the result of a Police Disipline Baord on the matter.

You want other examples...

OK...

Chat a young lady up in a club pub and after enjoying a night together find shes only 15 not 17 as she told you. Result...Polic eOfficer..Sacked..Doctor ...Struck off...Pilot? Nothing

Have a disagreement over a parking spot...ends up in a punch up...Police Officer...Sacked...Pilot? Nothing

Remember a pilot even if sacked does not lose his licence. He can get another job flying. A Police Officers or doctors career is over when it happens to him.

I am not against the same levels of Alcohol applying to every profession, if fact I am all in favour. What I am against is this 'We are being singled out' attitude. If you want the same rules to apply to everyone, then you have to expect other peoples rules to apply to you, and you will like that less than this law!
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Old 13th Sep 2004, 09:08
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JTL,
My dad says he did but only a horse & cart
Seriously, I agree that, quite rightly we no longer get up to the stunts of yore - still have guilty flashbacks to naughty doings with cars of an evening (and that's when they were moving).

bjcc,
Good points but I think that, if it became public knowledge that he had enjoyed the favours of a 15 yo a pilot, yea, even one so exalted would attract the adverse attention of the sheriff/CPS/police.
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Old 13th Sep 2004, 09:18
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bjcc

I think you'll find underage sex and ABH/GBH are covered within the disclosure rules. Result, pilot sacked, within the UK anyway.
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Old 13th Sep 2004, 10:04
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Yes you are possibly right about the disclosure thing, although if its ever tested in court it will probably get knocked on the head. In any event the problem only occurs when the disloure is form is issued at whatever interval that is. So you only have to worry about it when its re checked. However as I said a Police officer could lose his job for speeding in his own car on a day off...Could you?

However thats not the whole point. Even if you do get convicted of an offence and an airlines sacks you, you can still work for a non UK airline, or a flying club. In other words you don't lose your livelyhood if you lose your job. A Doctor would, so would a Police Officer, and so would many other professions.


The original point was a desire to have the same rules apply to all professions, a good idea, I agree. However you have to understand that if you want the rules to apply equaly then that means equaly and you have to face the possibility that rules and restrictions on those other professions are possibly not ones you would welcome.
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Old 13th Sep 2004, 14:40
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BJCC. I totally agree with your comments on this thread.

ILS 119.5. The drink driving rules apply to one and all. However, I would suggest that rules from one employer to another vary dependant on the degree of responsibility their particular job may have towards others, and how consumption of alcohol may affect that. In the case of a pilot, the responsibility to others doesn't come much higher if you've got 400 plus people in your care does it? Therefore surely the rules should be more stringent.
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Old 13th Sep 2004, 22:24
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Cool

bjcc

So far the man is innocent, surely even the police would concede that. Let us save our judgement until the court has made its judgement.

Not many airlines hire a pilot without a background check. Once you have had a legal problem with alcohol, your job prospects are pretty close to zero.
Effectively you can count your career as over.








are we there yet?
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Old 14th Sep 2004, 06:37
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Airside Pass?

ILS 119.5 This is a great topic. It deserves it's own thread.
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Old 14th Sep 2004, 07:12
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The point is not whether pilots, policemen, doctors etc should be treated differently, but that nobody should work under the influence of drink or drugs if that would adversely effect the lives of other people. Is it not a nonsense that not only could our political leaders take us to war (and kill thousands of innocent people) when they may have been drinking, but that subsidised alchohol and bars are made available at their place of work?
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Old 14th Sep 2004, 09:58
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ZQA297/30

I am struggling to find where you claim I didn't say he wasn't innocent. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

On the second point, you may not be able to get a job with an airline, maybe you can would be interesting to know if anyone has. However the point I made, and you seem to have missed is that the call is for equal treatment, if you want everyone else to have the same alcohol limits as pilots/Cabin Crew/ATCO's then fine, but you have to expect that the restrictions on other professions also apply to you. To be honest you will probably like those restrictions less than this law.

Last edited by bjcc; 14th Sep 2004 at 13:07.
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Old 27th Sep 2004, 22:25
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And the good news is...... that the pilot has been cleared of commiting any offense and is back in harness again. Happy endings all round.
Perhaps I can ask your advice on the subject of police and the law? This happened four nights ago:
If an unmarked patrol car with discreet roof strobes follows a pilot just out of the simulator and full of coffee on an A road for 15 statute miles at 2230 BST at a range of 10 feet @ 60 mph to 800 yards at 60 mph and repeat..., is he just being curious or is he in the business of intimidation and Entrapment ? Ah yes, there are those that have gone for an emergency stop for the black doggie and collected patrol car T-bone style, helping to remind the officers that ''Bowling and road snooker'' are best left to lodge night banter. Has traffic patrol been reduced to this? Thank goodness for Pace and the complaints authority.
cooking with gas.
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Old 28th Sep 2004, 05:03
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Angry

Yip...

And most of you guys where willing to hang the poor guy before knowing the full truth.

A bus driver reports smelling something while none of the other crew notices anything different...

Police shows up and drags the poor guy out of the airplane, delaying the flight by hours.

Whos going to pay for the over 40000 Euro delay, the bus driver? or the police? Somebody must be made accountable. How about the needless inconvenience the PAX had to endure?

If it was me, I would sue the driver, bus company, the airport and the police and make them pay. In FInland it is illegal to turn a person in without grounds and now that the pilot has been cleared the bus driver has commited a crime.

It is not enough that pilots are being dished out a raw deal by many of the employers. Now we have all these "Experts" that go around sniffing our hinds and then calling police when in their 'Expert" opinnion something does not "Look right". In my books this is harrasment.

JJ
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Old 28th Sep 2004, 06:25
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And now will the sensationalist press print an attention-grabbing headline on page one that reads something like

' Innocent Pilot reinstated. Frenzied media hacks admit printing lies in order to improve sales.'

Somehow I doubt it.

British media is more of a rumour network than this forum
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Old 28th Sep 2004, 12:11
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Silverhawk,
I couldn't agree more. The media are highly skilled in writing fatuous drivel and playing with themselves in public. I once nearly pulled the wings of a boeing avoiding a trijet.... pre tcas days and news at ten sent a car for me to come sarf and tell my tale of derry do. F - off seemed to disappoint them, so we said it louder and it worked. Watch your six and only cook with gas!!
koi
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Old 28th Sep 2004, 13:26
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finnair pilot

Sympathy is a little irrelevant. My understanding is that the
threshold set for pilots being "over the limit" is about a third of the driving breathalizer limit.What guidance has your company or licensing authority given re- "safe" limits re units of alchohol vs
time before duty....oh, silly me, you can't have a hard and fast rule because we vary in our metabolising rates and (a sensitive one for me) weights. Make walk-in testing available so that we
might gain some personal idea...how progressive! My company and the CAA think it's fine for me to start work at 0500z after a day off...no sherry trifle for me, darling.
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Old 29th Sep 2004, 20:05
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JJflyer

So I presume the same would apply if you got on a bus and smelt acohol on the driver?

The Pilot was not dragged off for no reason, he would only have been arrested after FAILING a screening test. Which means that he would have had alcohol in his blood at the time that test was given.

No the bus driver has not committed an offence, and trying to sue anyone here would just cost you an awful lot of money. In the UK its a public duty to as you put it 'turn someone in'. Can you clarrify then, that you would not go to police about a peadophile? a drugs dealer? a wife beater?

It may be that between the time of that test and a subsequent test at the police station that his BAC went below the limit....There may some other explanation, I don't know....The fact remains the driver thought he smelt alcohol, and reported it. He was right to do so. Police turned up and breath tested the pilot, he was then arrested. This happens to drivers frequnetly, it is also true that a proportion of them the pass an evidencial breath test. I can see nothing wrong with the action of either the Police or the Bus driver.

Bill Pinnock

You sum up the problem, everyone is different and so you can't have guidelines. I agree a form of walk in testing would be cheap and safer for everyone.

The Aircrew limit is not 1/3 the drink drive is 1/4.
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