Pilot arrested at Manchester (merged)

[SLFguy]

My thruppence worth..
There are losers in this world and there are winners....each of you I am sure have people in your street that you wouldn't want your daughters/sons marrying..
This guy had the nous/intelligence to become a pilot, which as far as I'm concerned shows a high level of intelligence/desire/ambition (whatever),.
Something has happened in this mans life that 99% of us know nothing about.
I wish him all the best and hope that he seeks the required treatment and that it is successful.

[Orion Man]

For what its worth matkat, I don't think there are many pilots out there who have not sailed close to the wind at some stage in their career whether unwittingly or chancing their arm perhaps thinking they are not going to get called first thing on their standby in the morning etc etc.

The new limits are very prohibitive now and someone caught just over the limit can hardly be deemed drunk in my book but thats the world we live in now. It's just not worth the risk.

[Cap 56]

I think that drinking and flying is a well known problem in this industry.

It’s not normal and can not be accepted but it can be understood.

We do not lead a normal lifestyle, definitely not on the long haul.

Any professional Airline knows this and should be able to cope with this.

Everyone can/will/may has some difficult moments in live where they exceed the limit of social drinking. If it happens to a pilot that has many years in the company and served them well then a normally functioning Airline would try to help the pilot sorting out his problem and recover him for operations later on.

Any other reaction would increase the problem. Pilots are human beings that live according to the rosters of the airlines.

I agree that the general public should be protected but the system needs to be fair to all including politicians, doctors etc…. I do not think that that’s the case.

So if it is not worth the risk .....then maybe the risk of going up in the office and telling you boss you need a break might be higher....what's the real problem ?

[koi]

Pilot arrested at Manchester

This is all wonderful stuff. Thank goodness that a pilot under the influence of alcohol while on duty is a rare thing indeed. Alcohol need not yet be involved in the Manchester case, involving a grunt with bus and attitude.
If you really want to kick up some dust, reflect on the heavy drinkers in the world of airline management, the police officers who so frequently take bribes from criminals and a smattering of kiddie porn to keep the adrenaline flowing, the solicitors -notaries public and accountants who just can't resist stealing from clients every week and.... hold in your minds the still banned World in Action documentary from nearly twenty years ago that recorded the world of the respectable London professional doing sufficient -no more- of cocaine friday night through sunday and then back in chambers, court, station, office with not a hair out of place. It is not what you do but ......
OK lets go!
koi

[bjcc]

Koi

'Alcohol may still not be involved.'....Be odd if it's not, afterall there has to be some evidence for Police to arrest, unless of course they were looking for kiddie porn, or the pilot refused to pay a bribe...
If you don't like the idea of bus drivers calling police if he thinks a pilots been drinking, then don't drink before you fly. Although the 'Grunt with bus and attitude' has yet to be proven before a court, so the same rules apply to the driver as the pilot, innocent, unless a court says otherwise.
None of the crimes you mention other occupations committing are harmful to the extent that a pilot who's been drinking could be. However there are many other crimes those occupations could commit that could be. However this thread is about a pilot who has been arrested for attempting to fly having had too much to drink. If there was no evidence then he would not be bailed to return to a police station. The assumption is therefore there is some evidence, thereby justifying the bus drivers actions.
No the press wont print retractions if he is aquitted, but then if he is convicted ,most posters here will not be howling for his blood either.

[Basil]

<<I think that drinking and flying is a well known problem in this industry.>>

I don't agree at all.
Airline pilots and flight engineers are monitored as no other profession. I have no wish to belittle others but, medically, technically, professionally and by way of public observation, we are trained, checked and watched to a greater extent than any doctor, legal practitioner, engineer or academic.
Of course many of us drink alcohol and why not? - but it is certainly not common for flight crew to turn up for flying duties the worse for drink.

[ShotOne]

It is interesting to note that the medical profession who administer these tests have been violently against any testing of doctors -this despite many well documented cases of medical professionals working under the influence of drink or drugs.

The doctor,s union (the BMA) recently declared such testing "a major infringement of personal privacy"

ps do we know yet if the pilot was in fact charged with anything?

[SKI]

Well I agree with you Shot One! They are dealing with peoples lives as as well!

Wot Next?

[koi]

manchester pilot arrested

How can we soar like eagles when surrounded by turkeys', ......a question Koi has been asking himself over 28 yrs since graduating. Historically, airlines have always helped pilots who develop alcohol problems, sending them away to be rehabilitated or put down. They need them back in harness as soon as feasible, with the money invested and 9 months of lead in time required to replace . Loose a few, occasionally, with regret. Aviation has always led the field with a hands up honesty, supported by open reporting with the MOR, Company and chirp schemes, let alone an off the record word with the fleet mgr. A quiet phone call to the caa or medics would be accepted as a cry for assistance in a 'safe system culture'. What a dreadful shame that the Police, Accountants, Solicitors, Surgeons, Company Directors, and GP's ...water ski some 20 years behind aviation in terms of accountability, safe systems and open recording. Indeed the medics now approach the airlines for guidance on resource management. The police had no choice but to arrest, given suspicion. Not a nice job to have, so I hear, judging from all the early retirements and escape from the sewer in which most are forced to work to the borders of scotland, land of chief constables. Cookn with gaz.
koi

[ecj]

Do the police have the hand held [ " just blow into this month piece until I say stop"] equipment with the aviation limit, or are you just taken down to the nick to blow into the machine??

[bjcc]

ecj

I belive so yes. The legislation only gives, as I recall a power to require a first screening test, then if that provides evidence of the offence or is refused the power to arrest. It would therefore follow that they have the calibrated equiptment. I know that there are available ones used for the Road Traffic Act that give a numbered read out rather than the traffic light system, these would be usable in the case of this legislation.

Koi, the police do have the option not to arrest, the legislation says 'A Constable may arrest........' not must. As to whether its a nice job or not, it can be yes, but arresting someone before they cream a bus/train/car/plane load of people accross the countryside is better than dealing with the aftermath.

[koi]

Any airport police officer would be extremely foolish under these circumstances not to arrest the suspect, in order to... prevent.... the criminal act of ' flying under the unfluence of drink / drugs' [ air nav order]. Suspicion or... a report would be all that was required. Not to prevent the pilot from continuing with duty would under those circumstances have been negligent. The officers acted sensibly. Let us remember how important it is to be proceduraly correct in this situation.
koi.... kuchen mit gaz

[bjcc]

Koi

I didn't suggest letting him continue flying. There are many cases where drivers have been advised not to contuinue driving...and thats the end of it, unless they fail to take theat advice. The Aviation and railways safety act power of arrest (which has nothing to do with the ANO) That power, along with every other power to arrest says May not Must.
Thats not the issue however, which is that the discrestion exists alowing a Constable not to take action if he so deicides. How many people for instance are given a warning for going through a red light. The seriousness of the offences may be differant, however the principle is the same. Having said that you are right, it would be highly unlightly that a constable would not proccede by means of arrest, if they pilot failed a screening breath test. (or caused the officer to suspect an offence of being unfit through drink or drugs)
The criminal act you mention from the ANO was vauge to say the least unless Drunk on an aircraft could be proven. The offence would now be under this new act. As to your comments about suspicion or a report is all thats required, either you have the new legislation wrong or I have misunderstood what you have said???!!!!

One final thing the only 'Airport' Police officers I can think of are in the Isle of man and Belfast. I think you mean Police Officer.

[Jack The Lad]

BJCC, I think you are probably right;

The time has gone now where you give someone a 'second chance', allow them to 'dry out' and then allow them back at the front end, no matter what the percentage of 're-offending' probability is.

Evidence and statistics of re-offenders in drink drive cases will prove that some of the offenders will most definitely offend again and that is not an acceptable situation when it comes to flying airplanes.

Sorry to say, but it should now be 'one strike, and you're out'.

It doesn't matter a damn that we all did it many years ago; that was then and here we are now. Times, attitudes and perceptions have long since changed.

All sympathies to those that find it difficult to meet the current regulations, but there again go find yourselves another livelihood.

We can still sympathise with those that may have a problem, but they cannoot again occupy a seat at the front.

[Basil]

JTL,
Couldn't disagree more.
We give second and third chances to all manner of criminals. I do not think it unreasonable to give a pilot the opportunity to consider his or her position.
Don't forget that the VERY few in that position will be carefully monitored, not least by their captain/first officer.

<<It doesn't matter a damn that we all did it many years ago>>
Did you, really?

[Little_GTO]

I must agree with Basil, for what it's worth. It is the right thing to give second chances. Unfortunately, in todays total crap "politically correct" climate, few are willing to do so, and mostly because of the liability risk, due to the prevalance of lawsuits. Can you tell that I hate political correctness, and lawyers?

[bjcc]

Basil

While I can see your point, think of it anotther way...

Police officer arrested for drink driving...Will be sacked.

Train driver arrested for drinking driving train....sacked.

Captain of a ship (irrespective of if he's driving it at the time, or asleep in his cabin) ...sacked.

Those are 3 examples of many that will loose thier living for a similar offence. Why then should a pilot be any differant?

Much as been said of monitoring etc, but monitering by other crew happens now, and still there are arrests/convictions for drinking & flying, so it s not a deterrent. I think that this new law is exactly that, a deterrent.

[ILS 119.5]

I agree with most of the points made on this thread. However, the most interesting one is the legal limit and why it is not applied to other professions. I agree with our limit but how can a police officer, doctor, surgeon or other such profession be allowed to work with a higher limit? For example the officer testing you or the doctor taking a sample maybe below the drink/driving limit but well into ours, therefore is the specimen justified. If we cannot do our job when above the limit then how can the others do their jobs. If we can make mistakes (as alleged) when just above the 1/4 drink driving limit then I'm sure other professions can make bigger mistakes when slightly under the drink/driving limit. Do you get my drift?
In my view, and I hope this reaches the papers, all top professions who have a responsibility for human life should come under the same rules. Regardless.
How many deaths are caused by doctors/surgeons being over the limit? We don't know as it is not regulated.
How many deaths are caused by police officers being over the limit? We don't know as it is not regulated.
How many deaths are caused by pilots/controllers being over the limit? We don't know and will never will as it is now regulated.
From now on I'm going to make an effort to ensure the other professions are regulated as ours. It is not fair that we are subjected to this regulation without other professions being involved.
Please send me a pm if you are supportive of this cause. I only need numbers of support not names and addresses.
ILS 119.5

[bjcc]

ILS 119.5

You ask how many deaths are caused by the occupations being over the limit. Firstly what 'limit are you referring too?

If you mean the drink drive limits then the number of deaths Police Officers cause while driving are probably kept by the Police Complaints Authority. By the way a Police Officer caught drinking and driving off duty will lose his job, as indeed he would if convicted for any criminal offence. As you are asking for the same treatment regardless remember that you could then lose your job for say having no Road Fund Licence, exceeding the speed limit....Then as you say at the monet its not fair is it.

You lose you job with airline A and you can probably get a job flying with airline b, a Police officer once sacked, can never be a Police Officer again. Same for a doctor when struck off. Again no its not fair is it.

So feel free to lobby for the same 'rights' as Police, but remember that there are 2 sides to it. But as you are demanding equal rights for top proffessions I am sure you will welcome that change.

As for number of people killed by doctors and any other occupation while over whatever limit you choose, you may be able to get the stats via the Home Office. If someone dies from an unexpected cause there is an inquest, any contribution from intoxication would form part of the evidence and therefore the HO would keep stats on it. Whether you are able to prise those from them is a differant matter.

Good luck...................

[ILS 119.5]

The point being that there are two different limits, i.e. one for each profession, this should not be the case. We should all be covered by one limit. In high profile professions if one is subject to an alchohol limit then so should the others. The aviation industry has been subjected to so much media attention over the last few years I feel it's time to stand up and say "hang on, what about everyone else". As a professional for more than 20 years I can say that our industry has changed dramatically. We used to have drinks in the cockpit years ago, not now. We used to drink vast amounts and party all night, not now. Don't get me wrong I think the evolution of the industry is good but it is the evolution of other industries which impose regulations but cannot keep up with it.
For example, if I said to you that cannot commit adultry but I can, what would you say? (PS one of the ten commandments).
Law should be equal for everyone. I'm not trying to be offensive or arguementative but objective.