Ryanair faces inquiry as toilets on aircraft were used as seats
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Jeez, some people just don't know when to shut up! AVIACO, will you give us all a break from your outrage and pretentious pontificating on what might have happened if there had been an emergency that may have involved an evacuation in thick smoke with no emergency lighting or whatever! 
Yes, the Captain was wrong to allow the use of the lavatory as an extra seat for some people on staff travel. He did the honourable thing and resigned. Two of the cabin crew tried to shrug off their own responsibility and were fired instead. The use of lavatory seats for passengers is wrong. I don't know how dangerous it is but it isn't safe. A bit of a difference there. If cabin crew gave the captain a "cabin secure" message, both before tako-off and before landing then they broke the rules.
Now, give us a break on your hand wringing and knicker wetting outrage. Thiws one had nothing to do with O'Leary or Ryanair policy. It was a bad decision by the captain and his crew and the people who agreed to use the lavs. If they were staff then they should have known better. But please... can we stop this Ryanair and O'Leary bashing just for the sake of it.
In over 10 years of airline flying I have never seen anyone use a loo to stow pax in. It may have been common many years ago but here in the modern world we have moved on and try to be as professional as possible. This captain showed a lapse in his professionalism and has paid the price. He hasn't held a baby by its leg over a balcony, he hasn't mugged an old woman, he hasn't tried to fly under the influence of alcohol or drugs. He tried to help out some stranded fellow co-workers and has paid the price for making a very bad decision. Now AVIACO, give us all a break and go wash your knickers!
Yes, the Captain was wrong to allow the use of the lavatory as an extra seat for some people on staff travel. He did the honourable thing and resigned. Two of the cabin crew tried to shrug off their own responsibility and were fired instead. The use of lavatory seats for passengers is wrong. I don't know how dangerous it is but it isn't safe. A bit of a difference there. If cabin crew gave the captain a "cabin secure" message, both before tako-off and before landing then they broke the rules.
Now, give us a break on your hand wringing and knicker wetting outrage. Thiws one had nothing to do with O'Leary or Ryanair policy. It was a bad decision by the captain and his crew and the people who agreed to use the lavs. If they were staff then they should have known better. But please... can we stop this Ryanair and O'Leary bashing just for the sake of it.
In over 10 years of airline flying I have never seen anyone use a loo to stow pax in. It may have been common many years ago but here in the modern world we have moved on and try to be as professional as possible. This captain showed a lapse in his professionalism and has paid the price. He hasn't held a baby by its leg over a balcony, he hasn't mugged an old woman, he hasn't tried to fly under the influence of alcohol or drugs. He tried to help out some stranded fellow co-workers and has paid the price for making a very bad decision. Now AVIACO, give us all a break and go wash your knickers!
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Cargo Boy
I lost my best mate of the time in a horrific incident on a British Airtours B737-200 in Manchester in the mid-eighties, and very often when I fly, I think of what it must have been like trying to clamber out of a smoke filled airplane in the dark, amid panic and mayhem.
Difficult enough, I would say, without having the "airline" break the rules by having illegally stowed passengers in a loaction that could further endanger life if a similar situation as the Airtours one were to occur.
Your post greatly offends me and I feel that I have every right to "pontificate" as you call it. This Forum exists for that very reason.
My reasons for being outraged at this incident are personal. Fact.
I have never posted any "O'Leary bashing" topics in the past.
AO
I lost my best mate of the time in a horrific incident on a British Airtours B737-200 in Manchester in the mid-eighties, and very often when I fly, I think of what it must have been like trying to clamber out of a smoke filled airplane in the dark, amid panic and mayhem.
Difficult enough, I would say, without having the "airline" break the rules by having illegally stowed passengers in a loaction that could further endanger life if a similar situation as the Airtours one were to occur.
Your post greatly offends me and I feel that I have every right to "pontificate" as you call it. This Forum exists for that very reason.
My reasons for being outraged at this incident are personal. Fact.
I have never posted any "O'Leary bashing" topics in the past.
AO
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egnxema
Please enlighten me regarding all of these airlines you refer to. I have worked for several, and NEVER been flying around with pax in the toilets.
With regard to "shouting down airlines", well, we are in a highly competitive environment. Cutting corners saves money, at least in the short run. What happened in this case may have prevented FR from canceling another flight.
-Pilots may report ready early in order to get ahead in the departure queue. A practice that may cause pilots like me an extra delay. Time and fuel = money.
-Pilots may fly with minimum fuel. When instructed to hold, they may advice ATC that; we have only fuel for 5 mins hold, and thereby getting a priority. I might cost me time and fuel.
-Some incidents may be an indication the company is only applying minimum training in order to save cost. My company may be at a disadvantage because training and safety is at a higher level. Safety cost money.
-Some incidents may be an indication of bad maintenance procedures. Bad maintenance procedures may be because of cost cutting. Have a look at the Alaska Air MD 80 accident, and you will see what I'm getting at. Again, other companies may suffer financially because of a higher standard.
-Breach of procedures may be an indication of a less than ideal culture within a company.
Just because an airline hasn't crashed, doesn't automatically mean its safe. If an airline has crashed, it doesn't automatically mean its unsafe.
And no, I'm not pointing my finger at FR specifically. These are general observations.
I try to keep a high standard, as do most of us. We react when we see somebody blatantly disregarding the rules. Or cutting corners.
With regard to "shouting down airlines", well, we are in a highly competitive environment. Cutting corners saves money, at least in the short run. What happened in this case may have prevented FR from canceling another flight.
-Pilots may report ready early in order to get ahead in the departure queue. A practice that may cause pilots like me an extra delay. Time and fuel = money.
-Pilots may fly with minimum fuel. When instructed to hold, they may advice ATC that; we have only fuel for 5 mins hold, and thereby getting a priority. I might cost me time and fuel.
-Some incidents may be an indication the company is only applying minimum training in order to save cost. My company may be at a disadvantage because training and safety is at a higher level. Safety cost money.
-Some incidents may be an indication of bad maintenance procedures. Bad maintenance procedures may be because of cost cutting. Have a look at the Alaska Air MD 80 accident, and you will see what I'm getting at. Again, other companies may suffer financially because of a higher standard.
-Breach of procedures may be an indication of a less than ideal culture within a company.
Just because an airline hasn't crashed, doesn't automatically mean its safe. If an airline has crashed, it doesn't automatically mean its unsafe.
And no, I'm not pointing my finger at FR specifically. These are general observations.
I try to keep a high standard, as do most of us. We react when we see somebody blatantly disregarding the rules. Or cutting corners.
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I Fully agree ManaAdaSystem, good post.
Everybody has their own motives of posting things here.
If properly explained others should refrain from bashing te post but ask questions and then you can DISCUSS differences.
It's almost always the same here with postings.
So the Captain resigned ey?
Difficult dilemma but ultimately not his problem to sort out...
Good luck with rest of careers, problem with operating in the margins is the risk of cutting corners.
Black isn't black anymore, white isn't white....
Everybody has their own motives of posting things here.
If properly explained others should refrain from bashing te post but ask questions and then you can DISCUSS differences.
It's almost always the same here with postings.
So the Captain resigned ey?
Difficult dilemma but ultimately not his problem to sort out...
Good luck with rest of careers, problem with operating in the margins is the risk of cutting corners.
Black isn't black anymore, white isn't white....
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The PIC decision to break the law and company policy lays with the Captain. He allowed this infringement and knew what he was doing. The news reports are saying that he had 30years flying experience.
PIC is where the buck stops. MOL was not the PIC, cut him out of the discussion.
PIC remember ! PIC.
PIC is where the buck stops. MOL was not the PIC, cut him out of the discussion.
PIC remember ! PIC.
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Once on Christmas Eve there were some nonrev's on standby waiting to get home. We filled the aircrafts jumpseats, and sadly had to leave some pax behind. The purser suggested we'd use the toilets. Telling her I never heard anything as ridiculous as that, we didn't even consider her proposal.
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Does anybody know what, if any, action has been taken against the lavatory seat passengers?
In my opinion, they too are culpable because they must have been aware of their own responsibility in accepting the offered accomodation.
Offered by whom, I would also ask?
Was the captain offered a fait accompli, just as he was getting his slot, or as the aircraft was ready to go? Was there baggage in the hold which would need retrieving?
All sorts of pressures may have been put on the skipper which could have persuaded him to take the easy option to get the aircraft out on time, particularly with FR and its reputation for company pressure to operate on time. Perhaps this occurence is indeed a result of that insiduous pressure.
If any of these, then, WRONG DECISION, but he would not be the first person to have made a mistake out of expediency.
I know this is no excuse but there is always more to these things than is at first apparent, in which case, some of the more pompous posters in this thread should perhaps take a deep breath.
Once again I say that there is really no excuse but retraining and a severe warning may have been a more apt response and it wouldn't happen again with these personnel. Sure, in the extreme, this stupid action COULD have had more serious consequences. Happily, it didn't.
In my opinion, they too are culpable because they must have been aware of their own responsibility in accepting the offered accomodation.
Offered by whom, I would also ask?
Was the captain offered a fait accompli, just as he was getting his slot, or as the aircraft was ready to go? Was there baggage in the hold which would need retrieving?
All sorts of pressures may have been put on the skipper which could have persuaded him to take the easy option to get the aircraft out on time, particularly with FR and its reputation for company pressure to operate on time. Perhaps this occurence is indeed a result of that insiduous pressure.
If any of these, then, WRONG DECISION, but he would not be the first person to have made a mistake out of expediency.
I know this is no excuse but there is always more to these things than is at first apparent, in which case, some of the more pompous posters in this thread should perhaps take a deep breath.
Once again I say that there is really no excuse but retraining and a severe warning may have been a more apt response and it wouldn't happen again with these personnel. Sure, in the extreme, this stupid action COULD have had more serious consequences. Happily, it didn't.
Jolly Green Giant
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Haha!!
I'm just laughing at the people making fools of temselves on page one just assuming it was the airline flying PAX in the toilets when it was off duty staff who would have sat on the bog at the CAPTAINS discretion.
Jeez and you guys have the nerve to accuse journalists of jumping to conclusions without getting the facts??
Never let anything get in the way of good 'ol Ryanair bashing though eh guys?
And while you're at it, why not take a swipe at the Irish too!! :Kill two birds with one stone!! rolleyes:
I'm just laughing at the people making fools of temselves on page one just assuming it was the airline flying PAX in the toilets when it was off duty staff who would have sat on the bog at the CAPTAINS discretion.
Jeez and you guys have the nerve to accuse journalists of jumping to conclusions without getting the facts??
Never let anything get in the way of good 'ol Ryanair bashing though eh guys?
And while you're at it, why not take a swipe at the Irish too!! :Kill two birds with one stone!! rolleyes:
Last edited by OneWorld22; 23rd Jul 2004 at 17:28.
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The cabin crew were not going back for work, they had a few more days off and should have waited for the next flight or even went back by another route. The capt in question is a wonderful guy and alot of the 200 captains in ryr will tell you they were taught alot by him. It is a shame to see him go as the younger guys will not have the chance to learn from him but for something like this he had to go. It is just a shame he had to leave like this and anybody who knows him will agree with me.
I wish him all the best in his future as he was a gent to work with and a gent to know.
I wish him all the best in his future as he was a gent to work with and a gent to know.
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SASKATOON9999
What do you think they will find that they wont in your airline. The capt has flown for over 30 years with EI and other airlines so i doubt he got lost in his ways just because he joined the Ryans. This could have happened to alot of airlines but as somebody else has already posted at least it wasnt drink or drugs. Nobody got hurt and there wasnt a problem with the flight so could have and should have doesnt come into play. If anything had happened at least there was two extra fully trained crew on board
What do you think they will find that they wont in your airline. The capt has flown for over 30 years with EI and other airlines so i doubt he got lost in his ways just because he joined the Ryans. This could have happened to alot of airlines but as somebody else has already posted at least it wasnt drink or drugs. Nobody got hurt and there wasnt a problem with the flight so could have and should have doesnt come into play. If anything had happened at least there was two extra fully trained crew on board
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what happened on this flight is a MAJOR safety issue. Staff or not. If that flight had an emergency, and had to evacuate, how would they get the toilet door open if everyone is piling out the exits???? There is no way that door would ever get opened, as they open out into the aisle, therefore causing an obstruction to the evacuation. Hope he gets taken to hell and back over this
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Oh boy, I really wonder what normal SLF folk that visit here, really think of the intelligence and emotional maturity of some of the more outspoken 'professional pilots' that make ludicrous posts here?
Does anyone in the 'right minds' think that MOL or any of his management team would endorse such practices, even if they did occur?
Oh boy, oh boy. The idiots know who they are......or maybe they don't; that is even more worrying!
Does anyone in the 'right minds' think that MOL or any of his management team would endorse such practices, even if they did occur?
Oh boy, oh boy. The idiots know who they are......or maybe they don't; that is even more worrying!
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NigelOnDraft:
Excellent question. It was a stupid idea for a supposedly first-world airline in the first place, but playing fast & loose with paperwork in that way is the kind of thing that could cost an airline their *license* these days.
An equally good question: where was the FO when all this was happening? And where is s/he now?
Assuming the regulators aren't in MOLs pocket, I think it's fair to say that FR will probably, at the very least, be under considerable scrutiny for some time. If I were there I'd be p*ssed with the idiots who pulled this stunt.
oscarh:
If I understand correctly, they were asked to resign. They refused, and were summarily dismissed for gross misconduct.
I'm no fan of MOL, but perfectly correct in the reported circumstances IMHO.
Unless of course it emerges that overloading with deadheading staff in this fashion was unwritten company policy, to 'get the job done', in which case all hell will be out for noon. But I don't believe MOL would be that stupid.
R1
And were these "extras" on the loadsheet? Or was that deliberately signed in error as well?
An equally good question: where was the FO when all this was happening? And where is s/he now?
Assuming the regulators aren't in MOLs pocket, I think it's fair to say that FR will probably, at the very least, be under considerable scrutiny for some time. If I were there I'd be p*ssed with the idiots who pulled this stunt.
oscarh:
Does anybody know what, if any, action has been taken against the lavatory seat passengers?
I'm no fan of MOL, but perfectly correct in the reported circumstances IMHO.
Unless of course it emerges that overloading with deadheading staff in this fashion was unwritten company policy, to 'get the job done', in which case all hell will be out for noon. But I don't believe MOL would be that stupid.
R1
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I have never really noticed wether the total Pax on the load sheet exceeds the seats on board. As our fleet has several seat fits, it requires a bit of research. But I will now!
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The way it was reported on national radio seems to blame the captain and the company has come across without egg on face - which of course you'd expect. Whether the captain was under company pressure to get these people home, we will never know. What the IAA will come up with remains to be seen.
I find it astonishing that an experienced pilot has allowed to himself to get caught out in such a way. Thats assuming he knew he had stow aways on board?............
I find it astonishing that an experienced pilot has allowed to himself to get caught out in such a way. Thats assuming he knew he had stow aways on board?............
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Droopystop
I'm even more astonished than you are about the fact that you are astonished!!
Let's blame MOL...I'm sure it was a conspiracy, right from the top.....oh boy, one is born every minute!
I'm even more astonished than you are about the fact that you are astonished!!
Let's blame MOL...I'm sure it was a conspiracy, right from the top.....oh boy, one is born every minute!
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Bla ...bla...bla
I don't remember such great interest when a pilot of one famous airline was caught drunk before the flight . Is it really about safety or just another chance for RYR and Irish bashing ?
This forum is becaming increasingly boring . Keep talking guys ...
I don't remember such great interest when a pilot of one famous airline was caught drunk before the flight . Is it really about safety or just another chance for RYR and Irish bashing ?
This forum is becaming increasingly boring . Keep talking guys ...