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American pilots to get some BA commands (GSS)

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American pilots to get some BA commands (GSS)

Old 9th Jul 2004, 17:55
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American pilots to get some BA commands

The waters that run between B.A and GSS upto this point have run turbulent and somewhat murky, but things were gradually beginning to settle a little, with the first 5 captains reaching the end of their training in GSS, and GSS F/Os finally beginning to accept the situation (albeit by looking for new jobs).
But into this water BA management are about to throw a large sh!t bomb. They are going to use Atlas again to fly BA cargo. GSS' fourth aircraft is going to be operated by Atlas for at least one year. Pilots in the states are allready receiving their upgrade training and presumably looking for somewhere to stay in the UK.
Hence commands that should have gone to BA and GSS pilots are going to Atlas. The reason apparently is that they can't supply a 747-400 for GSS and BA but have managed to provide them for other carriers such as emirates and Qantas. But they can provide a classic in the meantime to do the BA work GSS was set up to do.
So unless something is done we will once again hear the speedbird callsign with an american accent, we will once again see euro work done by american companies and euro pilot jobs go to americans.
What was the point of GSS, if not to prevent this in the first place?
Here both BA and GSS have an opportunity to fight side by side for a change, on the issue of command jobs. Maybe this will lead to a more co-operative approach in the future.
Let us sieze this chance and stop the americans taking our jobs again!!
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Old 9th Jul 2004, 18:23
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Er, what's the difference between an American pilot and a European pilot? Surely the job should go to the one that is best qualified and prepared to do it. Surely any concept of "our jobs" went out decades ago....
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Old 9th Jul 2004, 18:31
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We like the burgers, u like the chips. But all of us like the chicks.
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Old 9th Jul 2004, 19:34
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How short the memories! Maybe you guys in the UK have forgotten about how many UK licenced pilots operated Canadian flights with passengers originating in Canada after the demise of a major Canadian carrier. I can recall seeing large numbers of UK registered AC flying "charter" routes into YVR and other places when there were many unemployed and very current on type Canadian pilots out of work. Careful about how you guys look here...
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Old 9th Jul 2004, 22:00
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Sick I don't think anyone at BA is looking to GSS for sympathy, in fact I don't even think Ill25 is a BA pilot. Its GSS pilots that'll get screwed by Atlas doing more work, not BA. Of course as you all hate BA and BALPA I trust you'll approach neither in any attempt to prevent the work going to Atlas.

Sigmund - the difference is they have an FAA licence and fly American aircraft, we have EU licences and fly EU aircraft. We can't go over to the states and operate an EU aircraft in that line of work so they shouldn't be able to come to the EU and operate.

Left Coaster - I seem to remember seeing an awful lot of C registered aircraft doing summer charters from the UK to Europe last year. That seems like a two way street to me, a rather different scenario to the Atlas one.
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Old 11th Jul 2004, 10:50
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Left Coaster, the so called "large number of UK registered aircraft" in Canada happened for one season only, (winter 2001/2 after the collapse of Canada 3000 - one month before the winter season started). It is impossible to get a Jet Operation AOC through in a month with TC btw. There was also an incident in the winter of 1998/9 that a UK Air 2000 B757 flew out of YYZ for three and a half months for Royal.

Now lets see, Canada 3000 sent a C reg B757 (at least one, often two) to the UK (Air 2000) every Summer from 1989 to 1998. They also sent a B757 to JMC in the UK for the three Summers of 1998-2000. In addition, Skyservice have been sending multiple A320's to the UK for several years and also now B757's (and possibly A320's) to various bases in Ireland.

The mount of work done by UK carriers in Canada is about 10-15% of what Canadian carriers have done in the UK over the past fifteen years. Hardly an equal situation is it ? And as for feeling bad about being out of work while foreigners are doing your job - TC allows it because the situation is, overall, favorable to Canadian operators. It is no consolation, but in the summer of 1991, former Air Europe B757 type rated pilots were assigned to the dole queue (EI line-up) while Canada 3000 were plying their way merrily between Manchester and points south with a "Jet Set" call sign.

This is a global industry, why not do like all other Canadians do (me included) and go overseas for a decent job. Or you could always join HMY for CAD53k per annum...
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Old 11th Jul 2004, 14:04
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Well now, once I get past your tone, I will only say that you've reported things accurately. Having 25 years of Canadian exp in the book and having hung on while the industry imploded in Canada, and being very familiar with the issue here, I think the BA boys need to open their eyes and look around! Their industry allows just what they don't want. I can understand protectionist stances in any country but the industry now takes the lowest bidder, not the best. The BA boys need to "Take a look Around"
As far as HARMONY goes, got that Tshirt! Now working overseas and much to be said for it. I wish those boys (Harmony) nothing but success and hope they can hang on 'til a few more things change.
BTW if I struck a nerve with a fellow canuck, sorry eh?
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Old 11th Jul 2004, 17:45
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I think what galls a lot of us BA pilots is that we are close to the "benchmark" price for a crew and aircraft . However the rest of the airline , with its "flabby" management and cushy numbers is pricing us out of markets. Personally, I want BA to sort out these excesses so that the whole company can be competitive and not just the over worked pilots. (850 ish flying hours/ yr)
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Old 11th Jul 2004, 18:30
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BA has numerous problems but for one group of people to say " its not us,-its the others" is unrealistic and ducks the issue.
The validity of benchmarking depends on who you are benchmarked with. If its the traditional carriers,- AA, UA, the European nationals etc , most of these are in trouble and you are avoiding the question of how you would structure and run the business if you were starting afresh,- or were one of the low costs in Europe ( and , no, most arent cowboys and the customers dont think so either), a Far Eastern or new entrant. These are the folk who will blow you away if you dont change. BA still has a plethora of crew agreements which reduce flexibility, reduce service levels and/or add to cost including rostering, standard of hotels, separate transport for cabin and flight crew, rest periods on board for cabin crew etc and these need to be addressed just as much as management and other numbers.
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Old 11th Jul 2004, 19:14
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Sigmund - the difference is they have an FAA licence and fly American aircraft, we have EU licences and fly EU aircraft. We can't go over to the states and operate an EU aircraft in that line of work so they shouldn't be able to come to the EU and operate.
Hmmm... I have yet to see an EU registered airplane. What is the prefix? Last I knew, GSS had UK registered airplanes with G prefixes... Further, those airplanes used to be American registered, with N prefixes...

BTW, how many GSS pilots do NOT have CAA licenses issued by the UK?
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Old 11th Jul 2004, 20:57
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Skylion That is my point....Many BA pilots could go to the low cost carriers and get a pay rise for the same or more dosh (until you have been in the company for about 10 years, then I guess BA takes over. Most of us now want to reap back what we have lost in the past by being under the benchmark. Hence we are stuck in BA and not really able to move. As for crew agreements, well, doesnīt really matter how you roster/bid/organise pilots if they are still managing to fly near to the maximum number of hours each year. Iīd say to get 3000+ pilots close to the magic 900 hrs (rolling) is a pretty efficient scheme. Again, at the risk of repeating myself, the pilots are not the problem here. Certain other depts that work half and 3/4 shifts with the rest covered on overtime seem to be the problem. Departments that appear to have 20 or 30 % more staff that they need on paper to cover the work are another. Sickness rates bordering on the criminal are another. Whole rafts of offices and people that have impressive sounding job titles but little or no responsibility are another. Once BA sort out these problems Iīll have more sympathy when they pass the hat around again.
The BA pilots are not called the n****** of Europe for nothing. (so I have been reliably informed from a LH mate)
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Old 11th Jul 2004, 22:19
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MAX
I think we have to take our share of responsibility,i have friends in other areas of BA that have suffered real hardship on the basis of FSAS so comments like " the pilots are not the problem here. " will not go well received.

I am one of those who think we do fairly well out of life and although i dont want it changed i am not about to plead overworked or underpaid.

Skylion is entitled to his views, its more than obvious to any outsider that all the UK airlines are trying benchmarking, they dont want Air Baltic included in their lists and factors like that are obvious as well.
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Old 11th Jul 2004, 22:25
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Angry

Hey,dont blame the Atlas pilots blame your stinking UNION for allowing this to happen.
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Old 12th Jul 2004, 08:05
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Nutty Nigel I think we hold our own work wise with anybody in this industry. We fly with less pilots across the Atlantic than the Americans (and are paid less), less pilots down to the Far East than Qantas and Singapore Airlines (our main competition) and still manage to rack up close to a rolling 900 hrs a year. Not bad. Again, I humbly suggest that pilots are not the problem here. I also worked for British Midland for a while and have seen how things could be in BA. Workers happy to be flexible and help the company out. Staff that donīt sabotage their equipment so they can drag a job out for a couple of hours. Having worked on the ground for a while, I think you may be unpleasantly surprised at what goes on outside the cockpit.
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Old 12th Jul 2004, 09:32
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Max
My point is that there is always someone who will be paid more or work less,nowadays however they may well be with a company in significant financial problems looking for change,likewise i also know there are horrendous problems at BA outside of the cockpit in many areas.

Knowing and having worked for other companies like yourself we cant say ALL the problems lie elsewhere,like us others are entitled to their opinions and its difficult to argue some of their criticism when what we do is so publicly displayed and advertised.
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Old 12th Jul 2004, 11:46
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Several years ago, I was lucky enough to have 3 hours of Rodsīuninterrupted time where myself and my colleague asked all the questions that pilots would like to ask. One of which was why doesnīt BA have its own cargo operation. Rodsīprevious airlines flew dedicated freighters, so he knows his way around the cut throat world of freight. His answer, BA canīt make it pay with its bloated overheads. He also admitted BA pilots were among the cheapest in the world. We had great hopes that Rod was going to turn the company around and make us competitive and fight for new work. Sadly, we seem to have backed away from any real cost cutting and have retrenched to Heathrow. What will happen when the lo cost and Star Allliance start hurting us there, nobody knows. We will have no where to go.
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Old 12th Jul 2004, 13:57
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I know this is a bit OT but still follows on from maxy101 post. Has BA ever looked at opening a long haul base at Manchester. They seem too reliant on LHR and they can offer hardly any new routes due to slot constrictions.

Having a LH base a MAN could relieve some pressure at LHR by not having to offer so many flights on the LHR-MAN because people will not be connecting at LHR for the LH routes but flying from MAN on their LH route. Has this ever been looked at?
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Old 12th Jul 2004, 15:17
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If BA were to open a long haul base at MAN, having established that BA pilots will take commands for less money, (thanks to scope) then they would probably start a new company lets call it BA blue, with it's own new lower pay scale. BA pilots would of course have first refusal on all commands that come up, and finding f/o's wouldn't be a problem (unless they wanted type rated ones), and BA would have very nicely managed to expand their op and reduce pilot costs at the same time.
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Old 12th Jul 2004, 15:42
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Mattred,

Good point. BA seems to have retrenched to "Fortress Heathrow". With the exception of BMI to ORD and IAD all services to the USA from UK airports outside of London are flown by US carriers. American and Midlands do quite well on ORD-MAN so I'm told, and I question whether BMI would have started the route had BA been doing it. What about GLA or BHX? BA could have a share of that also.

Getting back to the question of freight. BA is running their own roundtrip 777 between Chicago and Houston every day. Presumably, it's the pallets in the belly making the money as the amount of through pax wouldn't make it viable. This freight could be transferred to a US registered aircraft with US pilots but no one is getting their knickers twisted over it. Lighten up guys, or have Rod buy a bunch of freighters like KE and SQ and go after it!

AT
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Old 12th Jul 2004, 17:14
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Another reason for the ORD-IAH schedule is to prove to the authorities that there is sufficient traffic LHR-IAH to justify a direct route licence, which Bermuda II doesn't permit.

(Don't mention the LOS moving from LGW)!
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