Sackings at Emirates
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Studi
I think Mutt has a valid point. Those who are not qualified to operate to Perf A generally do not understand it. Even some of those who are qualified don't 'get' intersection takeoffs either!
Mutt was just expressing frustration at posters who do not understand the argument they are venturing into, that's all.
I think Mutt has a valid point. Those who are not qualified to operate to Perf A generally do not understand it. Even some of those who are qualified don't 'get' intersection takeoffs either!
Mutt was just expressing frustration at posters who do not understand the argument they are venturing into, that's all.
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Is that not the reason for entering into the discussion, to get an understanding??. I find it suprising that there can be so many interpretations of basic facts from so many qualified people, between this and the EK thread it is quite worrying.
Prospector
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Wino,
Thank god you didn't get too technical!! It seemed completely clear to me after I dusted off my Perf 'A' notes and got out my copy of 'Flying the big jets'. Good explanation, but your 'simple' explanation perhaps explains why the subject is not easily understood even by some pilots that operate Perf A aircraft.
Back to the thread, I heard a rumour that appeals are in the offing over the sackings.
Ghost
I will try not to get too technical
Back to the thread, I heard a rumour that appeals are in the offing over the sackings.
Ghost
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Yeah, its not an easy subject, it would be a lot easier if we didn't start with alot of dogma from other aircraft.
It is VERY important to use full power on a piston engine take off as well (because of cooling issues, you actually hurt a piston engine by "babying" it for takeoff) so you ALWAYS take off with full power, and you ALWAYS start at the beginning of the runway. Take those two sentances and forget em when you get to a jet.
Well, jets in some ways are about as close to piston props as they are to a helicopter....
It will be interesting to see the appeal of the Emirates pilots. I would like to know their backgrounds, and of course I would like to see the training department take it on the chin. It can't be the first time the crew members did this. Though obviously its the first time it bit em in the old arse... I suspect there have been a lot of slow rotations that were not commented on.
Cheers
Wino
It is VERY important to use full power on a piston engine take off as well (because of cooling issues, you actually hurt a piston engine by "babying" it for takeoff) so you ALWAYS take off with full power, and you ALWAYS start at the beginning of the runway. Take those two sentances and forget em when you get to a jet.
Well, jets in some ways are about as close to piston props as they are to a helicopter....
It will be interesting to see the appeal of the Emirates pilots. I would like to know their backgrounds, and of course I would like to see the training department take it on the chin. It can't be the first time the crew members did this. Though obviously its the first time it bit em in the old arse... I suspect there have been a lot of slow rotations that were not commented on.
Cheers
Wino
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Sackings at Emirates
Sorry guys, I was out there flying.
To NigelOnDraft, last time I took off from JNB rwy 21R, 4418m no stopway, I had TOW around 279 tons, I couldn’t use any assumed because it was really hot, taxi all the way to A6 to full length. If I had 03L, I guarantee you I would go to full length as well. When I say big jet I realize that people reading PPRUNE know exactly what it is, otherwise they should go to APRUNE (A for amateur).
I am with rathouse, let’s get back to the original subject, Sackings at Emirates.
Zeke
To NigelOnDraft, last time I took off from JNB rwy 21R, 4418m no stopway, I had TOW around 279 tons, I couldn’t use any assumed because it was really hot, taxi all the way to A6 to full length. If I had 03L, I guarantee you I would go to full length as well. When I say big jet I realize that people reading PPRUNE know exactly what it is, otherwise they should go to APRUNE (A for amateur).
I am with rathouse, let’s get back to the original subject, Sackings at Emirates.
Zeke
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At the end of the day the aeroplane appears to have been fit to fly and loaded correctly. Therefore the crew would appear to have made a mistake in their handling of the aircraft. What they were shown or not shown does not excuse the error.
Should they have been sacked? I don´t think so but I do not have all the facts. They worked for a very young Arab operator with no employment law to protect the crews and no union protection to speak of. Sadly that means the owners can do what they want and no matter what we say or the managers may or may not want the owners will make up their mind and act on it. One of the down sides of working for this type of operator!
It is the local big wigs train set and if he wants you gone thats it as far as I can see and there will be little and managers can do to protect the crews even if they wanted too.
Should they have been sacked? I don´t think so but I do not have all the facts. They worked for a very young Arab operator with no employment law to protect the crews and no union protection to speak of. Sadly that means the owners can do what they want and no matter what we say or the managers may or may not want the owners will make up their mind and act on it. One of the down sides of working for this type of operator!
It is the local big wigs train set and if he wants you gone thats it as far as I can see and there will be little and managers can do to protect the crews even if they wanted too.
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What alternative to sackings?
As an interested observer of this thread:
If they don't deserve sacking, then what options are open:
Re-training?
Demotion? (How do you demote an FO?)
Perhaps someone with relevant experience might like to explaim their philosophies in this area?
Where and how do you draw the line, if a mistake has been
made, on what action should be taken, if any? Afterall, we ALL make mistakes, and the key to making mistakes in my book is about learning from them, and that applies to many areas of life, beyond the realms of this web-site....
Z.
If they don't deserve sacking, then what options are open:
Re-training?
Demotion? (How do you demote an FO?)
Perhaps someone with relevant experience might like to explaim their philosophies in this area?
Where and how do you draw the line, if a mistake has been
made, on what action should be taken, if any? Afterall, we ALL make mistakes, and the key to making mistakes in my book is about learning from them, and that applies to many areas of life, beyond the realms of this web-site....
Z.
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What options are open?
Retraining?
Yeah, good one. Most of us will agree with that.
What would have been the likely outcome for our unfortunate collegues if the company decided not to sack them?
Two years loss of bonus and right back to the line (With the Capt. as FO)
Sorry to say, but that is probably the best thing that could have been bestowed upon our poor friends!
Tajfa
Yeah, good one. Most of us will agree with that.
What would have been the likely outcome for our unfortunate collegues if the company decided not to sack them?
Two years loss of bonus and right back to the line (With the Capt. as FO)
Sorry to say, but that is probably the best thing that could have been bestowed upon our poor friends!
Tajfa
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Spy
''Therefore the crew would appear to have made a mistake in their handling of the aircraft. What they were shown or not shown does not excuse the error.''
Following your argument, you presumably would have no argument with your family being sued if you ploughed in after misshandling an engine fail at V1 because you were incorrectly trained!
I don't think so!
What they were trained to do is at the heart of the whole incident and EK will need to tread carefully through the legal minefield
BTW, they departed full length.
''Therefore the crew would appear to have made a mistake in their handling of the aircraft. What they were shown or not shown does not excuse the error.''
Following your argument, you presumably would have no argument with your family being sued if you ploughed in after misshandling an engine fail at V1 because you were incorrectly trained!
I don't think so!
What they were trained to do is at the heart of the whole incident and EK will need to tread carefully through the legal minefield
BTW, they departed full length.
Last edited by helen-damnation; 28th Jun 2004 at 20:19.
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Training in EK
Boyz we all know, ground school is good, refreshers are good, and we have the state of the art equipment etc....but.....
Now that we can have new (maybe younger more experienced blood) in training sims and line, things might improve.
Unfortunately there are still are a number of dead wood trainers come checkers (old school, lucky to have got their positions in the beginning days) lurking around, who have had jack**** experience in training and who are excellent at checking and no clue as to how to give instruction, and who are clinging to their jobs as "trainers". A new manager might utilise some training experience out of his 2000 odd pilots and get some fresh blood and thoughts into what training is really about.
Boyz lets face it, the training side needs the likes of C.R. who was there for a short time, was praised for his positive change, and then somehow I guess became a threat to the old school and got sidelined. Now here was hope in the training section until he left.....then all reverted to the same old checking, rather than training. The bean counters should also take some blame for pressurising management that training is expensive and to cut down on sim time.
Boyz losing a hull (close as it was) can cost the whole airline. Safety is dependant on the quality of training.........thats all I have to say...
Now that we can have new (maybe younger more experienced blood) in training sims and line, things might improve.
Unfortunately there are still are a number of dead wood trainers come checkers (old school, lucky to have got their positions in the beginning days) lurking around, who have had jack**** experience in training and who are excellent at checking and no clue as to how to give instruction, and who are clinging to their jobs as "trainers". A new manager might utilise some training experience out of his 2000 odd pilots and get some fresh blood and thoughts into what training is really about.
Boyz lets face it, the training side needs the likes of C.R. who was there for a short time, was praised for his positive change, and then somehow I guess became a threat to the old school and got sidelined. Now here was hope in the training section until he left.....then all reverted to the same old checking, rather than training. The bean counters should also take some blame for pressurising management that training is expensive and to cut down on sim time.
Boyz losing a hull (close as it was) can cost the whole airline. Safety is dependant on the quality of training.........thats all I have to say...
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Wino wrote
Actually it's 75 % of the max thrust of the day under the prevailing conditions and NOT 75 % of the max thrust at SL.
I can see that finally the EK guys have taken a BIG U turn.
The drama is that it took an incident like this one for the dynamics that wee needed to unfold.
Edited to add:
Once you are down to 75 % every meter behind you is a lost one.
Altough there may be some advantages in intersection T/O the main motive is often to get airborne earlier. (makes no sense on a 8 hr flight)
Often on a wide body you are limited by the time needed by your cabin to get ready anyway.
Nobody will argue that close to V 1 you have to be go minded and therefore some extra runway ahead of you will give you more time to get it right.
Fly wire
You should have been there five years ago, you may not realise it but we are not that different after all
I advise those new guys who might get involved to be very carefully even if EK asks them to get involved and use the backup of Airbus or Boeing as the case may be in order to get it right.
Get everthing in writing, a word is quickly gone in the wind.
Generally for regulatory reasons, you cannot reduce thrust more than 25 percent as part of a flex power (reduced power) takeoff. So for round numbers we will use a 777 with 100,000lb thrust motors (pretty close to what AA has, I think the rolls royce engines are good for 94,000). So if you took the maximium reduction of thrust available (usual done as a simulated air temperature, we will say 70 dedgrees C but this part isn't important, just background info on how they do it)
I can see that finally the EK guys have taken a BIG U turn.
The drama is that it took an incident like this one for the dynamics that wee needed to unfold.
Edited to add:
Once you are down to 75 % every meter behind you is a lost one.
Altough there may be some advantages in intersection T/O the main motive is often to get airborne earlier. (makes no sense on a 8 hr flight)
Often on a wide body you are limited by the time needed by your cabin to get ready anyway.
Nobody will argue that close to V 1 you have to be go minded and therefore some extra runway ahead of you will give you more time to get it right.
Fly wire
Unfortunately there are still are a number of dead wood trainers come checkers (old school, lucky to have got their positions in the beginning days) lurking around, who have had jack**** experience in training and who are excellent at checking and no clue as to how to give instruction, and who are clinging to their jobs as "trainers".
I advise those new guys who might get involved to be very carefully even if EK asks them to get involved and use the backup of Airbus or Boeing as the case may be in order to get it right.
Get everthing in writing, a word is quickly gone in the wind.
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helen-damnation
1. No one here has explained what has been taught at EK that differs from Airbus.
2. Most line pilots working for EK seem to accept that what is being taught is wrong!
Therefore, if the crew in question felt that what was being taught was incorrect, why when their aircraft was clearly not responding did they not take action sooner? The Captain signed for the ship and is responsible for it and the safety of his/her passengers and crew that is and has always been the bottom line.
Tajfa
My opinion on a suitable response by a responsible company, for what it is worth, would be in the first instance a review of the crews training record, experience and training provided on type. Consider any other mitigating circumstances and then if this proved to be a one off blip, re-training and a written account by the crew concerned in the airline safety magazine so others can learn from the event. This crew, if they are good guys, will be the last ones to make the same sort of mistake again so punitive action would achieve little and contribute nothing to flight safety. This approach fosters trust and makes crews feel able to talk about incidents so all can learn resulting in a much safer operation and happy airline.
On the other hand if it is proved that the crew were negligent and operated the aircraft in contravention of approved published company procedures then a more serious response would be appropriate, demotion, loss of seniority, increments, bonus etc, depending on the company’s policy and severity of the transgression. In a clear case of gross negligence, dismissal maybe the only course of action appropriate.
We are all human, the adult and responsible management approach should be to use the incident to increase flight safety, not to look for someone to blame and punish as the first port of call. Utopia? Maybe but I believe this is what all airlines should aim for. Certainly my own company has made a big effort over the last few years to move in this direction.
I clearly know nothing of EK and its attitudes so please do not take my comments as any form of judgement either of the company or the pilots concerned in this case as I like many here do not have all the facts. But at the end of the day my last post really reflects what I believe to be the situation at EK; it is the risk you run working for this type of operator, one can only hope in time they will evolve in to a more humane employer. It behoves them to have good employee relations and representation to increase pilot confidence in the company management structure and therefore, improve flight safety. This last point is often missed by some management structures who seem more concerned with covering their own rear ends than doing the job they are paid for. Sadly this attitude runs from the top down and in airlines like EK I believe it is a cultural problem that will not be easily solved.
However, Dubai is a nice place to live and work so it is a risk many seem happy to take.
1. No one here has explained what has been taught at EK that differs from Airbus.
2. Most line pilots working for EK seem to accept that what is being taught is wrong!
Therefore, if the crew in question felt that what was being taught was incorrect, why when their aircraft was clearly not responding did they not take action sooner? The Captain signed for the ship and is responsible for it and the safety of his/her passengers and crew that is and has always been the bottom line.
Tajfa
My opinion on a suitable response by a responsible company, for what it is worth, would be in the first instance a review of the crews training record, experience and training provided on type. Consider any other mitigating circumstances and then if this proved to be a one off blip, re-training and a written account by the crew concerned in the airline safety magazine so others can learn from the event. This crew, if they are good guys, will be the last ones to make the same sort of mistake again so punitive action would achieve little and contribute nothing to flight safety. This approach fosters trust and makes crews feel able to talk about incidents so all can learn resulting in a much safer operation and happy airline.
On the other hand if it is proved that the crew were negligent and operated the aircraft in contravention of approved published company procedures then a more serious response would be appropriate, demotion, loss of seniority, increments, bonus etc, depending on the company’s policy and severity of the transgression. In a clear case of gross negligence, dismissal maybe the only course of action appropriate.
We are all human, the adult and responsible management approach should be to use the incident to increase flight safety, not to look for someone to blame and punish as the first port of call. Utopia? Maybe but I believe this is what all airlines should aim for. Certainly my own company has made a big effort over the last few years to move in this direction.
I clearly know nothing of EK and its attitudes so please do not take my comments as any form of judgement either of the company or the pilots concerned in this case as I like many here do not have all the facts. But at the end of the day my last post really reflects what I believe to be the situation at EK; it is the risk you run working for this type of operator, one can only hope in time they will evolve in to a more humane employer. It behoves them to have good employee relations and representation to increase pilot confidence in the company management structure and therefore, improve flight safety. This last point is often missed by some management structures who seem more concerned with covering their own rear ends than doing the job they are paid for. Sadly this attitude runs from the top down and in airlines like EK I believe it is a cultural problem that will not be easily solved.
However, Dubai is a nice place to live and work so it is a risk many seem happy to take.
Last edited by spy; 29th Jun 2004 at 20:25.
