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Sackings at Emirates

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Sackings at Emirates

Old 20th Jun 2004, 14:48
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This is Devil’s Advocates stuff and I have never flown an Airbus, so what do others think? I have been accelerating down JNB's 12,500' runway on a modestly loaded B744 using reduced thrust take-off power, I became aware of the end of the R/W and advanced the throttles to max T/O power, we leapt into the air, I had felt uncomfortable and acted accordingly, once in the cruise we re-did our figures and we were correct, is was a matter of faith. Heavy weight take-offs were no strangers to me but I had been lulled in to a false sense of security by a 12,500' runway and with a failed APU, no ground cooling air available, an already delayed flight, a load sheet for another aircraft presented and subsequently corrected, not to mention a company VIP on board I was distracted so my reaction on the runway was 'animal' based on instinct.
What has happened to our training system whereby instinct and a knowledge of lights changing from white to red and then red etc. is suppressed by an overwhelming dependence on what the manufacturer says?
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Old 20th Jun 2004, 15:34
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loungelizard.... absolutely.
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Old 20th Jun 2004, 16:18
  #43 (permalink)  
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Cool

Loungelizard

I can only say I have found the technique to work fine with the A330; you are putting in around two thirds back stick using this technique. If you have had a different experience with the A340 then I accept what you say. How much back stick are you using and how do you judge how much to put in at J'Burg if you are not using the Airbus recommended method?
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Old 20th Jun 2004, 16:30
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normal_nigel

That’s exactly why Robin send Saleem and myself to Seattle and ask Boeing "Hey guys do we understand this correctly," BEFORE we brief our instructors.

Unfortunately the DO Mr J**** and his clan lost face, didn’t like the answers and swept it all under the carpet.

One does not need to be an expert, just a dose of common sense will lead you to the right questions.

And sometimes one has to ask for confirmation of the obvious without fear of loosing face.

I must say that on the differance between the Boeing and the Airbus; I do think that the Boeing option of providing more tactile feedback trough the classic control colum and throttles may be proving a point.

I am sure some chaps in Seattle are saying right now "You see" lets stick to what we have done so far for the B 7E7 as well.
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Old 20th Jun 2004, 16:42
  #45 (permalink)  
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Wink

So what are Emirates teaching that Airbus don't like?
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Old 20th Jun 2004, 16:47
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Omark44

Right on, my former company had suffered an engine fail on the B 743 due to a bat-strike.

They were so f*** scared seeing the end come near that they rotated before V r and struggled below V 2 to safety.

The performance departure came under serious pressure but it turned out they were 100 % right in their calculations.

The crew was not sacked but received 14 days or more holiday to recover. They may have made a small mistake but it was concluded that under the given circumstances their reaction was perfectly normal. And so was the reaction of the Airline.

Load sheets work with average weight numbers, reality may be different.

spy

There is a history between EK and Airbus regarding the A 310 were Airbus told them: "If you want to fly the A 310 according to your SOP then thats fine with us, but here in Toulouse we do it our way, otherwise we are not cheking you out"
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Old 20th Jun 2004, 17:56
  #47 (permalink)  
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Devil

Dungfunnel

Well the key to this thread is why were the guys sacked? Interestingly that may hinge on how the crew were taught to fly the aeroplane as it appears to have been serviceable and loaded correctly! So either they screwed up or they were following incorrect company taught procedures as has been alluded to by some on this forum. If the latter is the case it would be nice to know what EK are teaching.

Clearly you have an axe to grind with EK, thats fine, I am more interested to learn what happened.
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Old 21st Jun 2004, 05:27
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Angel

What all you gentlemen seem to have forgotten with all your tech talk is that the pilots did what they were taught in ground school and in the sim. We here in EK are not allowed to think, or use years of airmanship, we are told to do it that way, and if you don’t you will be fired!! In the old days we tried to learn by others mistakes (if they were around to tell us). These pilots now realize that they were taught the wrong technique, we should all learn by this not sack them. In the old days your chief pilot was a buffer between you and management, and would hold your hand when needed, that’s what he gets paid for, not this one! Next time you get stuck behind an EK aircraft that is unable to comply with an ATC request for speed on approach, please don’t think bad of us, we are only doing as per SOP’s to protect our jobs. This company does not have the memory to remember what happens when pilots “work to rule” because they are too frightened to deviate from SOP’s. Which incidentally have been rewritten more times than I care to remember? These are hard times out here, please be gentile with us.
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Old 21st Jun 2004, 05:59
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"...please be gentile with us".

You sure you want that?
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Old 21st Jun 2004, 06:23
  #50 (permalink)  
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Dungfunnel.......... Pure poetry my son. !!!

Spy,

Unfortunately ol mate you and we will probably NEVER know what happened as there are large plumes of smoke and huge mirrors flying everywhere within EK and blankets galore covering some extremely incompetent management.
 
Old 21st Jun 2004, 09:06
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11 Capts resigned ?

What about the latest rumour, (picked it up Sun-night) that 11 Captains resigned after the 2 guys got sacked....

Any confirmation on the above?

EK past the top and is going downhill....

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Old 21st Jun 2004, 11:47
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Angel

Capt. S. Dune,
Thank you. Of course I meant “please be gentle with us” My spell-check does not work when I am really annoyed and disappointed !!!!
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Old 21st Jun 2004, 15:49
  #53 (permalink)  
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Cool



Ok! EK is not a great place to work! But what are they teaching you guys to do?

All we have been told to date is EK are teaching their pilots incorrectly! I have no reason to doubt any of you, I would just like to know what they are teaching that could cause a crew to overrun the runway!

Underdog2000

Your post was clearly heart felt! If indeed the crew did what they were shown to do what was it? What were they taught that differs from Airbus? And if every one else at EK is doing the same why are there not more overruns?

I am not trying to accuse anyone of any miss doing; I would just like to understand what is being taught.


Last edited by spy; 21st Jun 2004 at 16:16.
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Old 22nd Jun 2004, 16:28
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There is one sop they use that has been binned by every other company i know flying glass
So what's this SOP? I skipped over most of the bus-talk. DId I miss something... will re-read.

Nope. What SOP is this you're referring to??
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Old 23rd Jun 2004, 23:33
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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J´burg

Heard from a South African Airways maintenance guy that the pilots decided to take-off from the intersection.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 04:20
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From a non-pilot-type


Are there any passenger aircraft that have an "Auto-Rotate" function, and I am not talking about helio's with engine failure.

Thank you
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 04:29
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NO!

(At least not yet) I hope I'm retired by the time they introduce that.

AutoAbort
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 04:40
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Is is not a natural progression of present automated systems?

All Manual,
Altitude Hold,
Heading Hold,
Auto - Fix Navigation,
Auto - Route Navigation
Optimum Level Determination etc...
Auto - Land


Especially when the numbers are getting tighter and there are things like Flex (I think I understand this) etc....

Surely there is a sound argument for this as the next step?

This is not intended to pi$$ off the pilots, it is a genuine question.

Invictus
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 06:24
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and in line with my post on the other tread (ref: emer landing)

thank you Invictus

I repeat my previous statement : "one does not T/O from an intersection on an 8 hr flight"
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 08:26
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Not sure what any of this has to do with the 'sackings'.

Doesn't the A340-600 have tailstrike protection due to its extra length. I understand you can back stick it at rotate and it will control the rotation rate to avoid hitting the tail. Might be wrong, never flown it.

As to all the rest of the innuendo why not just say 'one does not screw up and hit the lights.' An intersection, if it was used, would not have corrected for a wrong rotation. If it was on the ground for 17secs, without a rearward input on the stick or more thrust; it was only gonna fly when it got to the escarpment .

And, if it was on the deck for that long after rotate without lifting, there was plenty of runway available all other things being equal. Cap 56; as to not taking off from an intersection on an 8 hour flight. Good sweeping statement but I think you'll find that full length is rarely used at Gatwick, most guys go from A1, that costs a few inches. Why not just drop a cliche about runway behind you rather than trying to be so pious. It must be great to have never made a mistake.

Cerberus
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