BA reject pilot's pay proposal.
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Can I ask where the myth of a 50% pay bonus for all managers comes from? First i'd heard about it.
It's the kind of falsehood and chinese whispers that cause problems.
If we were to achieve a 10% operating Margin, the Management grades would get a bonus, of between 0 and 20%, based on thier individual performance for that year, the average would be about 10%, not 50%. If you sit around and do nothing, you get a very low performance score and get no bonus!
My dept. has over 50% fewer people than we had 2 years ago, with a workload 7% higher, and my pay has not gone up 57%, it's gone up 3%, with no performance bonuses for the past 3 years becasue of the poor financial results.
Your "secerative" pay deal of two years ago, beat my pay rise by a substantial amount so I wouldn't complain too much.
C&B
It's the kind of falsehood and chinese whispers that cause problems.
If we were to achieve a 10% operating Margin, the Management grades would get a bonus, of between 0 and 20%, based on thier individual performance for that year, the average would be about 10%, not 50%. If you sit around and do nothing, you get a very low performance score and get no bonus!
My dept. has over 50% fewer people than we had 2 years ago, with a workload 7% higher, and my pay has not gone up 57%, it's gone up 3%, with no performance bonuses for the past 3 years becasue of the poor financial results.
Your "secerative" pay deal of two years ago, beat my pay rise by a substantial amount so I wouldn't complain too much.
C&B
MY DEPT HAS OVER 76% FEWER THAN 2 YEARS AGO, I WORK AS HARD AS BEFORE WITH LONGER HOURS AND NO OVERTIME AND MY PAY HAS DROPPED 8%!
Not having a go but if BALPA fail then what hope is there for the rest of us?
Not having a go but if BALPA fail then what hope is there for the rest of us?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Crash & burn,
Not a myth. The 50% applies to certain heads of departments. As far as the "secretive" pay deal goes, most of us broke even. Those who won (junior captains) are now on the correct going rate for the job based on the European market. So check your facts or wind your neck in.
Can I ask where the myth of a 50% pay bonus for all managers comes from?
Crash & Burn
It was actually an intranet article which said that managers had agreed to limit any future bonuses to 50% of their salary as a cost saving. This to apply to Rod and all senior grades below - just under 1000 people.
It was actually an intranet article which said that managers had agreed to limit any future bonuses to 50% of their salary as a cost saving. This to apply to Rod and all senior grades below - just under 1000 people.
Chr*st,I'm glad I'm out of it !
Never looked back since I retired and certainly haven't missed the inane bickering that comes around every so often.... and we had the better days.
Be sure of one thing though.................
If BA pilots don't support each other and squash this, the whole of the industry will follow suit and a pilot's job won't be worth a candle.
The Management suits who persist in these forays into Aircrew salaries will never understand how their utilisation of crews can cause so much havoc with proper sleep, health, family relationships, social relationships and the like. Its not just the money, it's your work patterns and respect and understanding for your wellbeing.
Pie in the sky really !
Sleeve. ( ex-independent )
Never looked back since I retired and certainly haven't missed the inane bickering that comes around every so often.... and we had the better days.
Be sure of one thing though.................
If BA pilots don't support each other and squash this, the whole of the industry will follow suit and a pilot's job won't be worth a candle.
The Management suits who persist in these forays into Aircrew salaries will never understand how their utilisation of crews can cause so much havoc with proper sleep, health, family relationships, social relationships and the like. Its not just the money, it's your work patterns and respect and understanding for your wellbeing.
Pie in the sky really !
Sleeve. ( ex-independent )
Last edited by Sleeve Wing; 24th May 2004 at 20:23.
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"how their utilisation of crews can cause so much havoc with proper sleep, health, family relationships, social relationships and the like. Its not just the money, it's your work patterns and respect and understanding for your wellbeing. "
So, is it an informed (fully aware of the conditions of work/lifestyle etc), personal decision to do the job or were you physically forced?
So, is it an informed (fully aware of the conditions of work/lifestyle etc), personal decision to do the job or were you physically forced?
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And that sort of justification makes it alright does it Jerry Stinger? Tell that to the media when some overworked souls with their mind on other problems cock up resulting in a hull loss.
It might surprise you that most people plan their lives around what salary they expect to achieve and it affects quite a few when Ts & Cs are degraded. Did you notice interest rates rise recently? Have you considered mortgage repayments? Do you know how much it costs to live in the South East? Do you realise how punitive seniority systems are to those who move to other employers? Thought not.
It might surprise you that most people plan their lives around what salary they expect to achieve and it affects quite a few when Ts & Cs are degraded. Did you notice interest rates rise recently? Have you considered mortgage repayments? Do you know how much it costs to live in the South East? Do you realise how punitive seniority systems are to those who move to other employers? Thought not.
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Lucifer - I am fully aware of the cost of living in the South East, but then again, I don't live beyond my means. You almost seem to imply that you should be paid more, not because of your skills, but because of your personal living expenses. Hhmmm..
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I neither imply nor state it. I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety, which is of overriding importance.
I also imply that your statement
is of flawed logic.
Read Sleeve Wing's post and attempt to understand it before replying.
I also imply that your statement
So, is it an informed (fully aware of the conditions of work/lifestyle etc), personal decision to do the job or were you physically forced?
Read Sleeve Wing's post and attempt to understand it before replying.
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"I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety"
Rest i can see although BA flight crew get more than most,pray tell me how pay affects FLIGHT SAFETY then?, If that were true engineers would be paid similar to yourself
"I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety"
Rest i can see although BA flight crew get more than most,pray tell me how pay affects FLIGHT SAFETY then?, If that were true engineers would be paid similar to yourself
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XL5 That chip on your shoulder must be very heavy, who pray owes you any sort of career first or second rate? You are only worth what the market will stand and as you have doubtless observed the market isn't impressed.
Gonadz and Digitalis, so you have a productivity related pay rise, congratulations, your union though has been telling the rest of us that they have secured a 30% rise for you!!??
Gonadz and Digitalis, so you have a productivity related pay rise, congratulations, your union though has been telling the rest of us that they have secured a 30% rise for you!!??
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Just to lighten the mood....
A big corporation recently hired several cannibals.
"You are all part of our team now," said the HR director during the
welcoming briefing. "You get all the usual benefits and you can go to the cafeteria for something to eat, but please don't eat any of the other employees".
The cannibals promised they would not.
Four weeks later their boss remarked, "You're all working very hard, and I'm very satisfied with you. However, one of our secretaries has disappeared. Do any of you know what happened to her?"
The cannibals all shook their heads.
After the boss had left, the leader of the cannibals said to the others, "Which one of you idiots ate the secretary?"
A hand rose hesitantly, to which the leader of the cannibals shouted,
"You fool!!! For four weeks we've been eating Managers and no one noticed anything, but noooooo, you had to go and eat someone important!"
A big corporation recently hired several cannibals.
"You are all part of our team now," said the HR director during the
welcoming briefing. "You get all the usual benefits and you can go to the cafeteria for something to eat, but please don't eat any of the other employees".
The cannibals promised they would not.
Four weeks later their boss remarked, "You're all working very hard, and I'm very satisfied with you. However, one of our secretaries has disappeared. Do any of you know what happened to her?"
The cannibals all shook their heads.
After the boss had left, the leader of the cannibals said to the others, "Which one of you idiots ate the secretary?"
A hand rose hesitantly, to which the leader of the cannibals shouted,
"You fool!!! For four weeks we've been eating Managers and no one noticed anything, but noooooo, you had to go and eat someone important!"
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"I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety, which is of overriding importance."
So, the safety of your a/c can depend on how much you are paid. Your logic intrigues me (and obviously others).
????????????
So, the safety of your a/c can depend on how much you are paid. Your logic intrigues me (and obviously others).
????????????
Just back on the thread, JS, and aware of your totally anonymous sniping.
It may interest you to know that I have been in the business, both military and civilian, for over forty years.
I'm still in it, now passing on my experience ( for peanuts I might add ) to the young lads who have the same aspirations I had.
The reason I stayed in it was because was good at it and took a pride in what I was doing.
That's no reason to degrade my salary at every commercial opportunity.
Now tell us your success story.
Rgds, Sleeve.
It may interest you to know that I have been in the business, both military and civilian, for over forty years.
I'm still in it, now passing on my experience ( for peanuts I might add ) to the young lads who have the same aspirations I had.
The reason I stayed in it was because was good at it and took a pride in what I was doing.
That's no reason to degrade my salary at every commercial opportunity.
Now tell us your success story.
Rgds, Sleeve.
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Sleeve Wing
I dont want to degrade any of the BA pilots,what i would like to see somewhen though is an honest " We get paid well because of the Union and the problems we can cause the company if we strike " rather than we are paid loads because we are top professionals.
I am not degrading it ( I hope ) but i have seen the training which then requires a extreme amount of good fortune to get a job,at the end of the day however an ATPL takes a year to obtain,a doctor takes 7 years to train and the qualifications are far harder.I stand open to correction but a NHS GP doesnt look forward to 24 years of incruments that effectively double their pay.
I dont want to degrade any of the BA pilots,what i would like to see somewhen though is an honest " We get paid well because of the Union and the problems we can cause the company if we strike " rather than we are paid loads because we are top professionals.
I am not degrading it ( I hope ) but i have seen the training which then requires a extreme amount of good fortune to get a job,at the end of the day however an ATPL takes a year to obtain,a doctor takes 7 years to train and the qualifications are far harder.I stand open to correction but a NHS GP doesnt look forward to 24 years of incruments that effectively double their pay.
Controversial, moi?
I stand open to correction but a NHS GP doesnt look forward to 24 years of incruments that effectively double their pay
It is a fallacy that because 'We get paid well because of the Union and the problems we can cause the company if we strike ". If that was true our engineers, who do deserve much higher pay, would be able to use the same tactic.
I admit we are a powerful negotiating group but at the the end of the day market forces are the most telling influence on pilot salaries.
I worked for a small scheduled carrier in the late '80s. BA started recruiting, people left the charter operators and people like myself left the turbo-prop operators. My salary went up 40% in 12 months in an effort to keep people from leaving! I still left and my company could not get or keep pilots, that was until the market changed and once again there became a surplus of pilots.
I work for BA and I get paid a good salary (for which we work a damn site harder than 10 years ago) but if anybody here thinks that what BA pay doesn't influence the rest of the industry then they are living in cloud cuckoo land.
As has been discussed ad nauseum it is now questionable whether the move to BA is worth it for someone working for one of the other decent companies in the UK. The situation will be reached where if BA cannot recruit sufficient people then they will have to improve the package and the whole roundabout starts turning again.